Why didn't John Ramsey take the cord off of JonBenet's neck ?

[Seeker]

The fact that Patsy didn't read the whole note before she reacted sounds normal to me. The note was 3 pages; she probably couldn't even focus on anything after "We have your daughter."

Shelayne, I might be willing to go along with what you propose, except for the fact that Patsy quoted verbatim the sign off of the "note" to the 911 dispatcher...

She claimed she didn't read the whole thing, then how did she remember how it was signed off?

 

[tipper]

Shelayne, I might be willing to go along with what you propose, except for the fact that Patsy quoted verbatim the sign off of the "note" to the 911 dispatcher...

She claimed she didn't read the whole thing, then how did she remember how it was signed off?

I agree with Douglas on this question. The operator asked who wrote the note and Patsy jumps to the end and reads the signature.

If you have a long letter in your hand and someone asks who it is from you skip to the end.

If I found a note that said "We have your daughter..." I wouldn't calmly sit down and read the rest of the note before reacting.

Patsy seems prone to not being calm in an acute crisis and calling 911 before knowing what the rest of the note said seems to fit in with her known behaviors.

 

[Toltec]

As I recall he accidently hit her in the cheek. In 1994? I will have to check.

You're right he did say Flashy but my point is still the same.

The face AND leg claim was made last year but the poster never backed up his/her claim.

I hope the poster wasn't me....NE page 87:

TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?

PR: Burke hit her in the face with a golf club one time, and the leg...

 

[Seeker]

I agree with Douglas on this question.

Who is Douglas?

 

[tipper]

I hope the poster wasn't me....NE page 87:

TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?

PR: Burke hit her in the face with a golf club one time, and the leg...

"TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?
PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time, and the leg…
TT: Ay stitches or anything like that?
PR: No, it was just kind of a skin abrasion, she had a little scar, a little teensy little scar there, but it just kind of squashed the skin up and something to stitch it. She had a black eye, and…"

I think she was saying "Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time" then she started to talk about something else that happened to her leg and Trujillo interrupts her. The injuries she goes on to describe sound like they are in one location. But again Trujillo interrupts her. One would think if Burke pummelled his sister repeatedly with a golf club the police would show some interest. Instead they interrupt which make me think they know all about that incident and aren't interested.

It wasn't you.

Seeker, Douglas is John Douglas - Cases That Haunt Us

 

[UKGuy]

Thus, I'm more of the opinion that JonBenet's head and upper torso could have been propped up against the headboard by tethering the bound arms to the headboard or an overhead object while the rest of the body, from the waist down, remained horizontal on the bed. It would have been a classic position for erotic asphyxiation to have taken place which, IMO, did occur in this case. The bed being used would have been in one of the second floor bedrooms.

In this theory, after accidentally asphyxiating JonBenet, or torturing her with a stun gun and purposely asphyxiating her, the perp would have likely obscenely posed the dead body, probably with the stick tied on the end of the 17" long cord from the neck ligature inserted into the vagina. This would replicate what terrorists are expected to do. John Ramsey, upon discovering the grotesque scene very early in the morning, would have cut her down immediately, altered the crime scene, relocated the body to the basement, and established a plan to coverup what really happened.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,


Thanks for your remarks. Well I assume most of the IDI and the Lou Smit protagonists already think it is in the Sexual Monster category.


I was not thinking along the lines of a bondage scenario, but more for an explanation as to why her arms should be above her head. A conventional scenario would have her arms behind her back, tied in front or at her side.


If her arms above her head predate her death then this may have some signifigance beyond the obvious, similar to the pineapple and underwear evidence ?


So applying Occam's principle, originally I considered that JonBenet's arms may have adopted that position as a psychological response to a sexual assault, this is not uncommon in victims.


If she had screamed or resisted her assailant may have placed a pillow over her face and suffocated her. Or she may have been lying face down onto the bed. Thus leaving her arms outstretched.


So although I used the word "outstretched" I had thought of her arms parallel above her head, either open or closed, tethered but possibly not tied in our sense, since victim restraint may have been implicitly understood as part of a game or prior sexual abuse.


The theory you outline above is consistent and possibly one that could be carried out by an experienced predatory sexual offender. The ritual asphyxiation, head trauma, stun gun torture, sexual assault, and probable posing are not the hallmarks of a neophyte. This could be the profile of a male, with an estimated age range from late teens through to mid Thirties.

For those that discount the use of a stun gun, the marks still need to be explained, however applied, JonBenet would still have experienced intense pain!

 

[Zman]

Charlie,

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM, so her head was unable to flop from the tilted position and back again. Her entire body was rigid.

IMO John had to have been holding her head to lessen the weight and take the strain off the ligature on her wrists. A ligature is unable to be untied so long as a weighted object is trying to pull the slip knot tighter. There seems to be no other reason to be holding her head while trying to untie the ligature on her wrists.

John doesn't say so, but I think he cut JonBenet down by cutting the cord, and this may have occurred much earlier that morning -- like around 3 or 4 AM., and prior to rigor setting in. John's mention of holding the head could have been just another slip of the tongue as he and Patsy continue to confuse the timelines of their fabricated stories.

Please remember that the Ramsey's recollection of events that morning were based on a flat-out lie in regard to the whereabouts of Burke during the 911 call. Therefore, anything else they say about what happened that morning cannot be considered credible unless you are prepared to take a leap of faith.

BlueCrab

BC are you a politician? Do you have to drive that false statement home with every post? Like a stump speach until everyone thinks its a fact. Like WOMD in Iraq or the collapse of SS.

Please remember that
There is no enhanced 911 call with B's voice on it.

 

[Nehemiah]

...the collapse of SS.

Susan Stine?

 

[Charlie]

Charlie,

JonBenet was in full rigor when found at 1:05 PM, so her head was unable to flop from the tilted position and back again. Her entire body was rigid.

IMO John had to have been holding her head to lessen the weight and take the strain off the ligature on her wrists.

BlueCrab

BC, your right Jonbenet was in full figor when found, but maybe john was trying to lift her head up from the titlted position to see her face, obviously she was in full vigor therefore excerise was fruitless.

---------------------------------------------------------------

JOHN RAMSEY: "I mean, yeah. I think her feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head."

In my opinion his statement is very ambigous so we can only interprete it our own way, but you seem to have found a very specific scenario of how JBR might have been found strung up from a simple very vague answer.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BlueCrab,


Thanks for your remarks. Well I assume most of the IDI and the Lou Smit protagonists already think it is in the Sexual Monster category.


I was not thinking along the lines of a bondage scenario, but more for an explanation as to why her arms should be above her head. A conventional scenario would have her arms behind her back, tied in front or at her side.


If her arms above her head predate her death then this may have some signifigance beyond the obvious, similar to the pineapple and underwear evidence ?


So applying Occam's principle, originally I considered that JonBenet's arms may have adopted that position as a psychological response to a sexual assault, this is not uncommon in victims.


If she had screamed or resisted her assailant may have placed a pillow over her face and suffocated her. Or she may have been lying face down onto the bed. Thus leaving her arms outstretched.


So although I used the word "outstretched" I had thought of her arms parallel above her head, either open or closed, tethered but possibly not tied in our sense, since victim restraint may have been implicitly understood as part of a game or prior sexual abuse.


The theory you outline above is consistent and possibly one that could be carried out by an experienced predatory sexual offender. The ritual asphyxiation, head trauma, stun gun torture, sexual assault, and probable posing are not the hallmarks of a neophyte. This could be the profile of a male, with an estimated age range from late teens through to mid Thirties.

For those that discount the use of a stun gun, the marks still need to be explained, however applied, JonBenet would still have experienced intense pain!

I highly doubt she was smothered with a pillow or tied on her bed. I think her arms were raised because the person that bound her wrists found it easier to do so with them in that position, I think she was unconscious or already dead when she was tied.

 

[Shanny]

Yeah well I still don't get how John Ramsey ripped the tape off JB's mouth and untied her wrist but totally missed the cord being around her neck

 

[Seeker]

Please remember that
There is no enhanced 911 call with B's voice on it.

As if you'd know and are privy to the entire case along with all evidence...

I suppose the BPD members who swore they heard it are lying.

Shanny, it was burrowed into her neck from what I remember reading. It wasn't immediately noticeable. I don't remember if LA said she saw it either when she covered the body.

 

[Zman]

As if you'd know and are privy to the entire case along with all evidence...

I suppose the BPD members who swore they heard it are lying.

Shanny, it was burrowed into her neck from what I remember reading. It wasn't immediately noticeable. I don't remember if LA said she saw it either when she covered the body.

No one has ever sworn under oath to hearing this tape. You know why? Because they would go to jail.