The size 12s were from Bloomingdale's; and so, if they had been gift-wrapped also, they'd have been distinguishable from the FAO Schwarz presents. PR claimed that she ripped the paper back. Kolar asserted that it was BR.
Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.
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icedtea4me,
Why does she need to do this, if the gifts are meant for Burke and there are only two to choose from as the third (Lego) is easily identified by its size?
Before the gifts arrive at the Ramsey house from FAO Schwartz Patsy must know what the gifts are, since she paid for them in New York, and on their delivery to the Ramsey house, Patsy places them into the wine-cellar, underlining Patsy knows who these gifts are for.
Why does Patsy not say I opened the gifts when they arrived from FAO Schwartz because I could not make out what gift was what, due to the similar wrapping paper?
Why does she need to do this after they are put in the wine-cellar?
It seems more likely that Burke opened them and Patsy is covering for this?
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proust20,
Yes, this is the central issue and why I queried whether FAO Schwarz would have allowed Patsy to include the size-12's for wrapping and free delivery?
Assuming this never took place then Patsy presumably personally carried the size-12's back to Boulder from New York, wrapped in Bloomingdale's wrapping paper?
Lets assume Patsy places the size-12's with all the other gifts down in the basement intending to gift wrap them along with the others?
Lets also assume Patsy's explanation regarding the size-12's has been fabricated, i.e. she did not give them to JonBenet.
Also if the latter was false then Patsy would have known to make sure there were size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, right?
So we can assume it was either John or Burke who dressed JonBenet in the size-12's, meaning they had to know they existed and where they were located?
If Burke opened the gifts in the wine-cellar Christmas day afternoon, then why not the package containing the size-12's, which he might target because he recognizes the Bloomingdale's wrapping, which should not be located in the wine-cellar as it is not a gift intended for his birthday?
That Burke opened the gifts is not a big deal, they were intended for him, that Patsy tore and peeked is also not a big deal, what is : is who opened the size-12's?
Now BPD are not telling anyone what the contents of the unwrapped gifts were, could one or even two of those gifts in the wine-cellar actually have been intended for JonBenet, i.e. Patsy's continuation of the Christmas theme over onto the vacation, e.g. Secret Santa?
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icedtea4me
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She needed to do this because one gift was for Christmas and the other for his birthday.
icedtea4me
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Logic.
icedtea4me,
mmm, logic suggests she need only open one gift not two.
So its informed speculation on your part.
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icedtea4me
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Yes, because it was a process of elimination. You have gift A (Christmas) and gift B (birthday). You peel back the paper on one of the gifts. If it's the Christmas one, you take it upstairs. If it's the birthday one, you leave it downstairs and bring up the other gift.
If one of the presents with the torn wrapping was meant for BR as a Christmas gift, when was he to be given it? Shouldn't it have been under the tree with the rest? It is curious that LE has not divulged the contents of the ripped up presents. Some speculate that the Secret Santa event was to take place in Charlevoix. However, JR had already loaded the plane for that trip.
The size 12s could have been shipped, or PR could have taken them with her. One store isn't going to ship merchandise from another store.
The size 12s could have been shipped, or PR could have taken them with her. One store isn't going to ship merchandise from another store.
icedtea4me,
If its a process of elimination then you need only open one gift, both gifts were torn open!
Applying logic suggests it was not Patsy who opened the gifts, just as Patsy did not give JonBenet the size-12's, otherwise she would have put the remaining pairs in her underwear drawer.
Patsy is simply covering for someone else, John was covering for Patsy early on by saying Patsy did not know the gifts were in the wine-cellar.
Takeaway: The gifts have been dumped into the wine-cellar and the story about them being for Burke's birthday does not add up.
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proust20,
Consider Patsy purchases size-12's in New York and they arrive back in Boulder, by Patsy's hand, DHL, whatever.
Consider neither John or Burke know about the size-12's or care, they are of no importance to them.
Fast forward to Dec 25 1996 and one of the Ramsey's is looking for a pair of Wednesday Bloomingdale's underwear.
It cannot be Patsy: 1. because she never put the pack in JonBenet's underwear drawer; 2. she would know they would represent a red flag, she is staging a crime-scene.
It cannot be John as he does not know they exist, i.e. he need not randomly open gifts.
This leaves Burke who Kolar alleges admitted to opening the Partially Opened gifts.
IMO: the best explanation is that Burke was searching down in the basement and was opening gifts based on the gift wrapping, e.g. FAO Swartz , Bloomingdale's, etc.
He could have opened the gift containing the size-12's?
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icedtea4me
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Burke would've received his Christmas gifts on Christmas.
icedtea4me
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Then there were more than two gifts in large boxes wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper.
Patsy lied about the underwear being for JonBenet.
Burke's birthday was 27 January. Why wouldn't his birthday gifts have been down there?
icedtea4me,
There are two cited in the reports as being in the wine-cellar along with the Lego Set, which even if opened can be distinguished by size alone.
She sure did that.
They need not have been located in the wine-cellar, they could have been anywhere in the house, just not the wine-cellar.
We do not know if the torn open gifts were all for Burke, maybe one was for JonBenet?
Just because stuff was found in the wine-cellar and Patsy and John have an explanation why the stuff is in the wine-cellar, does not mean events surrounding the stuff are implicated in the death of JonBenet.
The contents of the wine-cellar could have arrived after the death of JonBenet, not before, meaning the parents story is a postmortem ad-hoc explanation.
Remember John says he knew what was in the wine-cellar, but Patsy did not.
This directly contradicts what Patsy said later, suggesting both parents are lying?
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UKGuy
I agree that BR could have opened the size 12s, especially if they were gift-wrapped, which is a factoid that is unknown. The unwrapped Lego set could have spurred him on to see if there were other gifts around for him. Although, also unknown is the whereabouts of the various packages before the morning of the 26th. As the WC is the scene of the most intense staging, it is reasonable to conjecture that the packages were moved there. But I have no reason why this was done, except for the possibility that the Rs were hiding exactly where BR located the size 12s. That seems a bit of a stretch, though.
I agree that BR could have opened the size 12s, especially if they were gift-wrapped, which is a factoid that is unknown. The unwrapped Lego set could have spurred him on to see if there were other gifts around for him. Although, also unknown is the whereabouts of the various packages before the morning of the 26th. As the WC is the scene of the most intense staging, it is reasonable to conjecture that the packages were moved there. But I have no reason why this was done, except for the possibility that the Rs were hiding exactly where BR located the size 12s. That seems a bit of a stretch, though.
proust20,
Sure but wrapped or unwrapped it does not matter, what does is that they existed as confirmed by Patsy and not brought into the house by an intruder.
Burke likely opened the gifts wherever they were located knowing full well there more gifts out there.
He knew Patsy was going to do a mini-Christmas at Charlevoix so he probably thought there would be gifts somewhere?
Burke likely went by the gift wrapping design on the gifts, unless he simply opened them all?
Patsy says in her interviews that she did most of her gift wrapping in the basement, so she either had a stack of yet to be wrapped gifts lying about in the wine-cellar or they were distributed about the house?
The unwrapped gifts are moved into the wine-cellar to break any link with their previous location, e.g. JonBenet's bedroom? Similarly with JonBenet's body.
Indirectly, no, because no size-12's were found anywhere in the house.
Could be the size-12's were originally lying wrapped in Bloomingdale's paper, say in the basement so he decided to open them?
The salient point about the gifts in the wine-cellar is that John, Patsy, and Burke are all claiming to have interacted with the gifts.
Burke and Patsy say they both opened them and John says he put them in the wine-cellar without Patsy knowing!
In other words they all contradict each other and the takeaway is Burke wants you to know he opened the gifts in the wine-cellar.
Why would he want you to know this?
I reckon its more likely that Burke and JonBenet went down to the basement using the flashlight and found various gifts, again probably identified by wrapping paper, and took them upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom, so they could open them uninterrupted?
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Tobiano8th
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this is something i read about halfway back through this thread.
the "patsy was wearing the same thing in the morning that she wore the evening before" to me used to be a big thing. amongst alot of big things.
but over time, i've started thinking,
1) is it certain she was wearing the outfit from the night before?.... and how fancy was it?
2) ties into #1, but unless it was a very special occasion, she may very well have worn the same thing the next day.. we read "she's rich, society, into appearances etc. etc. etc.".... but maybe she's just lazy or weird.......... i do thinking wearing something you'd wear to the opening of the new york opera's season wouldn't be worn the next day. but i think the equivalent of female "business formal" might be.
it's all such inductive reasoning....... of course, there's so much of it.
just rambling now
the "patsy was wearing the same thing in the morning that she wore the evening before" to me used to be a big thing. amongst alot of big things.
but over time, i've started thinking,
1) is it certain she was wearing the outfit from the night before?.... and how fancy was it?
2) ties into #1, but unless it was a very special occasion, she may very well have worn the same thing the next day.. we read "she's rich, society, into appearances etc. etc. etc.".... but maybe she's just lazy or weird.......... i do thinking wearing something you'd wear to the opening of the new york opera's season wouldn't be worn the next day. but i think the equivalent of female "business formal" might be.
it's all such inductive reasoning....... of course, there's so much of it.
just rambling now
Tobiano8th,
Well, in short, it appears Patsy never made it to bed and was up all night?
So many think think this confirms Patsy Did It?
Now if you put your thinking cap on and analyze the situation you might realize, hang on if Patsy rose from her bed and dressed in a new clean outfit then this might provide investigators with a timeline via any fibers found on JonBenet?
Whereas if she goes with the previous nights outfit then any fibers can be attributed back to the night before, i.e. they become ambiguous.
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icedtea4me
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And the third gift was brought upstairs and opened Christmas morning. Voila!
We agree on something.
What's wrong with having them in the wine cellar?
One of the gifts in the wine cellar? I find that hard to believe.
Really, how do you know that, why not fourth or a fifth?
Nothing. Its just that they were never in there to begin with, they were dumped in there and a postmortem story was fabricated to explain their presence, just as the RN explains why JonBenet is in the wine-cellar.
The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene so you should not believe either what you see or the Ramsey's tell you.
Naturally, if you have been hoodwinked by the Ramsey's to believe their version of events then the gifts should all be for Burke.
Yet, some of the gifts wrapped by Patsy were intended for JonBenet in Charlevoix, e.g. a mini-Christmas, so if found by Burke and JonBenet and opened then dumping them into the wine-cellar explains away when Burke and JonBenet came by the gifts, i.e they were asleep remember?
Burke says he opened the gifts that are in the wine-cellar Christmas Day afternoon, whereas they could have been opened later Christmas Day evening after returning from the White's.
Also remember Burke said on Dr. Phil's show he returned back downstairs once everyone was in their bedroom.
The bottom line is there is enough evidence linking Burke to the basement, his knife, footprint, etc that he recognizes the Partially Opened gifts need an explanation, of sorts.
What might Burke use his knife for, to open the gifts of course?
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