GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Mrs G Norris]

The Obsession

The Obsession with Slender Man, along with other urban myths and creepypasta is a very real and evident part of Slender Man communities including this one, although debatable in its origin. It is the main driving source of non-seer believers in researching and/or searching for Slender Man. Its side effects on people's lives can be catastrophic, as they may unintentionally isolate themselves from normal society and allow themselves to become prey for Slender Man.

....

Bear in mind this is written 'in character', but it's interesting that it describes what can happen to people who become too obsessed with Slenderman:

Description

The Obsession has very little existing research into it as many people do not notice it, or they underestimate it. What it might be is the primary stage of Stockholm Syndrome (a process by which people become Proxies) or simply a human being's desperate need for truth and information.

It is possible that the Slender Man is responsible for this occurrence, so it can easily turn people into Proxies.

http://theslenderman.wikia.com/wiki/The_Obsession

It goes on to describe signs that you are becoming obsessed and are in danger, as it's written it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy. I must say I didn't give this whole thing much weight when I first heard it, but the more I look into the myth, and thinking back to an age when the possibility of the paranormal was very real to me, I can see how these girls may have been influenced by becoming immersed in the Slenderman stories and belief.

Think of indigenous Australians for example who actually die after an elder points the bone at them because they believe that is enough to kill you for instance. Or religious folk who show all the symptoms of being possessed after putting themselves at risk.

Regardless their computer history will tell the tale, either they genuinely believed in all this or they didn't, clearly they'll also need to be tested to show their levels of maturity, susceptibility and for sociopathy IMO.

ETA: I must add that the point they made about 'proving the skeptics wrong' is not as strong a statement as say 'we became obsessed and Slenderman made us proxies' for instance .. but I am seeing how the motivation behind the attack may be exactly as they say it was.

 

[Soulmagent]

Their brains don't need to be fully developed to know you don't lure your friend to the woods and try to slaughter them.

Maybe not ,however would putting them in jail for 65 year be justice? Do they understand die ,and death and how does exposure relate to their choices, I.E religion they may have been exposed to ,social norms, peer pressures?

The human frontal lobe part of the brain is not fully done growing until 22 , I do not see how you can charge 12 year old as if they are grown when study after study has said teens do stupid stuff because of this.


Is justice really something that can be unequivocally carried out? between girls of 12 and men of 70? I dunno whats wrong in the world today but something is.

What is the level understanding in what their actions have done or what they had planned to do ?

Do you consider a 12 year old an adult with the same reasoning skills as a 17 year old? I don't.

 

[Nasteria]

school system rules- fyi- an interview with the Superintendent:

Q. No backpacks in the halls and classrooms was a new policy at Waukesha West last year (new principal David LaBorde confirmed last week the same rule will still apply). Are there any new district rules?
A. The one thing we are changing district-wide is no more cell phones in the classrooms or halls. We tried that, it was an experiment. But it became a big distraction and I had an overwhelming number of teachers say 'this is just not working very well.' So no more cell phones in classrooms unless the teachers specifically says bring them for a class project. Otherwise, out of sight. Each school would have its own penalty (if students don't follow this rule).


http://www.waukeshanow.com/news/gra...s-as-superintendent-b9986007z1-222350931.html

This crime grabbed me because of the age of the children and because I am a mother. Momrids6 do you suppose the girls transported books or articles about Slenderman in the backpacks?

 

[Nasteria]

On Nancy Grace just now it was reported after the stabbing the two girls told the victim to lie still and breathe slow and they would go for help. They walked away looking back at her and thinking they'd killed her. Thank goodness the victim crawled to seek help on her own.

Sends shivers down my spine.

 

[Elley Mae]

Robert Kinscherff, senior associate at the National Center for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice, said that in the few similar cases that exist historically worldwide, the suspects' relationship with each other was a key component.

"When you think back to being 12 or 13, relationships are intense," Kinscherff said.

And it's that intensity, developed in isolation — and without oversight or moderation — that in rare cases may lead to extreme behaviors. The children feed off each other's thoughts and reaffirm each other's increasingly unrealistic appraisal of the world.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/...-mental-evaluation-b99283879z1-261736551.html

 

[Sonya610]

The human frontal lobe part of the brain is not fully done growing until 22 , I do not see how you can charge 12 year old as if they are grown when study after study has said teens do stupid stuff because of this.

Are you suggesting that we don't lock up anyone under 22 for a lengthy time even in cases of multiple murder?

Or since those UNDER 22 don't have "fully developed brains" I guess that means they should not be able to vote, drive, drink, care for young children, hold jobs requiring responsibility, or join the military.

Fully developed or NOT they knew what they were doing is WRONG. If they show a willingness to intentionally harm others to this degree they are a threat and society needs to be protected from them.

 

[Spice]

Sends shivers down my spine.

it is even worse than that.

When the victim began moving toward the street to get away from them Weir became nervous that the victim would be seen and discovered as she was covered in blood , "stumbling, and could not see or walk."

Weir became concerned that the victim would be seen, so she told the victim to "lay down, you'll lose blood more slowly" and then left her there. The victim did so. When the police asked Weir why she told her to to lay down and then left, Weir stated : So that she would die, I hoped that she would die. (paraphrase)

The victim then managed to crawl to the roadside after the other two took off to find Slender Man's mansion which was miraculously somehow in their home state.

This just lacks any and all compassion and empathy. It's so disturbing and so horrible.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

it is even worse than that.

When the victim began moving toward the street to get away from them Weir became nervous that the victim would be seen and discovered as she was covered in blood , "stumbling, and could not see or walk."

Weir became concerned that the victim would be seen, so she told the victim to "lay down, you'll lose blood more slowly" and then left her there. The victim did so. When the police asked Weir why she told her to to lay down and then left, Weir stated : So that she would die, I hoped that she would die. (paraphrase)

The victim then managed to crawl to the roadside after the other two took off to find Slender Man's mansion which was miraculously somehow in their home state.

This just lacks any and all compassion and empathy. It's so disturbing and so horrible.

To me this is more, If she dies she can not tell people it was us.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It's not hard to find, you can just look up Wisconsin law. Anway, here is an article if you need it.

"For example, the attorney for one of the Wisconsin girls said she was questioned without a parent or lawyer present, which is legal if she didn't ask for one."

http://www.athensreview.com/breakin...onsin-stabbing-highlights-juvenile-crime-laws

There are better articles which state that the girls actually waived their right against self incrimination after miranda was read. I'm headed to bed, but I'm sure plenty will pop up if you do a search. Even so, of they don't ask for a lawyer...the police do not have to allow one.

Legal or not, There is no way a 12 yr old knows the nuances of the law. I am not sure that this is legal and I am sure it will be challenged and possibly thrown out. No matter what It should not be leaked to the press.

 

[bt208]

Ok, but still not even remotely a creator of slenderman or creepypasta and nothing to do with this that we know of other than living close by.

The article clearly states he is not a creator of slenderman or the original creepypasta.

The guy plays an active part in continuing the online mythology surrounding slenderman. I posted the article because I think it's an interesting coincidence that the guys runs a creepypasta website in proximity of the stabbing.

I'm not implying any guilt on his part. It's just interesting.

 

[Spice]

Are you suggesting that we don't lock up anyone under 22 for a lengthy time even in cases of multiple murder?

Or since those UNDER 22 don't have "fully developed brains" I guess that means they should not be able to vote, drive, drink, care for young children, hold jobs requiring responsibility, or join the military.

Fully developed or NOT they knew what they were doing is WRONG. If they show a willingness to intentionally harm others to this degree they are a threat and society needs to be protected from them.

I think that what he/she is saying, and I agree, is that it is unethical and utterly ridiculous to try a 12 year old as an adult. Would we try and adult as a juvenile? No, because an adult is not a juvenile and a juvenile is not an adult. They are totally different developmentally.

There have been umpteenth studies that have proven as fact that the human brain does not fully develop until around 24 years old. It is simply not finished cooking. And even more important, is that the area that is still developing and underdeveloped in a 12 year old is in the frontal lobe and controls impulse control and emotions. They may "know right from wrong" but their brain is still underdeveloped in a critical area related to behavior, impulse, and emotions ( or lack there of).

Even the "18" as an adult is fully arbitrary and comes from the days when we were an agricultural and farming society and children, worked, married, and lived like adults much much sooner. If we were going by science, life cycle development, and brain development, 18 would not even be an adult, never mind 12. Yes, what they did was horrific, but treating children as adults,viewing their actions through an adult lens is emotional , reactive, and illogical.

And before everyone gets all up in arms that this somehow is an attempt to minimize the horrific crime of these two girls, it is not. a They should pay for their crimes, they should do a real amount of time, in a juvenile facility, as the juveniles that they are. No one is talking about a slap on the wrist, juvenile court hands out hefty sentences as well.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[Cubby]

sorry if this has already been referenced. I once thought the idea of evil was religious as well, Mrs. G.
That is until I read scott peck's 'People of the lie.'
Has anyone here read it?

I think these girls meet Peck's definition of evil. (( I'm repeating myself from an earlier post but I feel the need to repeat~I really believe Slenderman is being used as a pre-planned excuse/cover by these 2 girls in case they got caught.)

BBM. I'm no where near caught up on the thread, but I've believed it was a pre-planned excuse from almost the beginning.

Hoping to catch up now, because I know if I don't - I'll see how much has already been discussed.

 

[giagreen]

The human frontal lobe part of the brain is not fully done growing until 22 , I do not see how you can charge 12 year old as if they are grown when study after study has said teens do stupid stuff because of this.


Is justice really something that can be unequivocally carried out? between girls of 12 and men of 70? I dunno whats wrong in the world today but something is.

What is the level understanding in what their actions have done or what they had planned to do ?

Do you consider a 12 year old an adult with the same reasoning skills as a 17 year old? I don't.

This is far past justice at this point. This is about the fact that two 12 year old girls stabbed another girl 19 times and left her for dead. And regardless if their brains are done growing or not is it really safe or fair to society at this point not to have them locked up?

I think blaming this on their undeveloped frontal lobe and giving then a free pass would not only be a slap in the face of their victim and society but also the worst thing that we could do to these girls.
These girls have problems that need to be addressed. Charging them with these crimes might be the biggest help they ever get.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

This is far past justice at this point. This is about the fact that two 12 year old girls stabbed another girl 19 times and left her for dead. And regardless if their brains are done growing or not is it really safe or fair to society at this point not to have them locked up?

I think blaming this on their undeveloped frontal lobe and giving then a free pass would not only be a slap in the face of their victim and society but also the worst thing that we could do to these girls.
These girls have problems that need to be addressed. Charging them with these crimes might be the biggest help they ever get.

It is not either or.
You can look at the facts of brain development and where they are in life, The influences they had and what kind of parents raised them and then also want them punished for what they have done. But the simple fact is they are indeed CHILDREN. Not even fully through puberty.

They need to be treated as CHILDREN who have committed a crime not adults. They still need to suffer the consequences but they don't need to be thrown into the pen without any chance of redemption.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I have a huge issue with them being able to waive their Miranda rights. Did I even read that correctly? How can they have been able to do that and treated legally as adults at the point of arrest? When is the decision to try someone as an adult made, is it based on the crime, and what, suddenly they're treated as if they have the same amount of judgement about their own rights as a full grown adult?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I have a huge issue with them being able to waive their Miranda rights. Did I even read that correctly? How can they have been able to do that and treated legally as adults at the point of arrest? When is the decision to try someone as an adult made, is it based on the crime, and what, suddenly they're treated as if they have the same amount of judgement about their own rights as a full grown adult?

Don't faint, But I completely agree with you. Something seems very very wrong about that. And it bothers me greatly.

I have seen interrogations where the police got kids to confess to things without parents and lawyers by lying to them and it comes out the kids were completely innocent.
In this case, I do believe these kids are guilty but STILL they should be legally protected against self incrimination and know their rights CLEARLY. I don't think that is possible for a 12 yr old.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

OMG Scarlett, we agree on something! There should have been a social worker called at this stage at the very least, and I believe legal representation as well, it's not right.

 

[Spice]

Don't faint, But I completely agree with you. Something seems very very wrong about that. And it bothers me greatly.

I have seen interrogations where the police got kids to confess to things without parents and lawyers by lying to them and it comes out the kids were completely innocent.
In this case, I do believe these kids are guilty but STILL they should be legally protected against self incrimination and know their rights CLEARLY. I don't think that is possible for a 12 yr old.

LOL Scarlett! Dont faint because I agree with your last two posts as well.

I've bolded what you said because I immediately thought of the Central Park Five when I heard that the interrogation of these girls occurred without an adult present and that they waived their miranda rights. I'm sure they don't even understand the true concept of miranda rights and what it means to waive them.

Of course, I believe they are guilty as charged and these were not forced false confessions. But still....It's frightening that it is legal at all, especially when dealing with minors.

 

[tlcya]

I have a huge issue with them being able to waive their Miranda rights. Did I even read that correctly? How can they have been able to do that and treated legally as adults at the point of arrest? When is the decision to try someone as an adult made, is it based on the crime, and what, suddenly they're treated as if they have the same amount of judgement about their own rights as a full grown adult?

Don't faint, But I completely agree with you. Something seems very very wrong about that. And it bothers me greatly.

I have seen interrogations where the police got kids to confess to things without parents and lawyers by lying to them and it comes out the kids were completely innocent.
In this case, I do believe these kids are guilty but STILL they should be legally protected against self incrimination and know their rights CLEARLY. I don't think that is possible for a 12 yr old.

OMG Scarlett, we agree on something! There should have been a social worker called at this stage at the very least, and I believe legal representation as well, it's not right.

:thud:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

LOL Scarlett! Dont faint because I agree with your last two posts as well.

I've bolded what you said because I immediately thought of the Central Park Five when I heard that the interrogation of these girls without an adult present and with their miranda rights waved. I'm sure they don't even understand the concept of miranda rights and what it means to waive them.

Of course, I believe they are guilty as charged and these were not forced false confessions. But still....It's frightening that it is legal at all, especially when dealing with minors.

HA! I think at our core everyone here wants justice, I think that we see things differently because of experiences but in the end I think we are all on the same page about wanting to make sure there is justice for every victim and justice for every accused and for me and I think all of us here that means making sure that everyone has all the rights they are entitled to.

This case stinks to me because as juveniles they should be under some kind of protection from the law and the press.