GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Disguiseduser0308]

It IS black and white to me. People who are mentally competent to stand for their crimes, should do so. Period. Children who commit crimes so heinous there is little chance for rehabilitation, should be tried as adults. Period. (I am not assuming they are not able to be rehabilitated. I am saying IF that is the case.)

If they are competent, mental duress can be brought up by the defense and at sentencing. Those who are competent but mentally ill, should not get lesser charges.

RBBM -- I think that's the thing I'm taking issue with at this point. We don't know if they can be rehabilitated at this point in time. We don't know the why yet (not that it's an excuse. of course).

As a mother I try to think of it from the side of the victim and perps. The only thing I can feel atm is wondering what was so wrong in these girls' lives that made feel they had to do this? Even if it were my child they had stabbed, I would still wonder, what was wrong? Why did they do this? I wouldn't be calling for their heads. I would want help for them and my child.

Sorry, it's the hopeless hopeful in me.

 

[Ausgirl]

Which mental illness is it?:waitasec:

What's the point of asking that, to a bunch of unqualified people who will never examine the kids?

Their behaviour is violently abberant, the things they are saying are quite delusional. That alone says 'possible mental illness', I don't think we here need to be pinpointing the diagnosis in order to discuss it in general terms.

 

[Sonya610]

(from the link above)

When asked about Slender Man, Geyser said she had never met him but said he watches her and he can read minds and teleport. Geyser said what she did was "probably wrong."


^ Bingo. Untreated mental issues.

Yes, but apparently if one gets too paranoid over Slenderman he does in fact stalk them and kill them.

 

[blue22]

RBBM -- I think that's the thing I'm taking issue with at this point. We don't know if they can be rehabilitated at this point in time. We don't know the why yet (not that it's an excuse. of course).

As a mother I try to think of it from the side of the victim and perps. The only thing I can feel atm is wondering what was so wrong in these girls' lives that made feel they had to do this? Even if it were my child they had stabbed, I would still wonder, what was wrong? Why did they do this? I wouldn't be calling for their heads. I would want help for them and my child.

Sorry, it's the hopeless hopeful in me.

Ugh...I did say, "I am not assuming they are not able to be rehabilitated. I am saying IF that is the case."

 

[Sonya610]

What's the point of asking that, to a bunch of unqualified people who will never examine the kids?

Their behaviour is violently abberant, the things they are saying are quite delusional. That alone says 'possible mental illness', I don't think we here need to be pinpointing the diagnosis in order to discuss it in general terms.

Yeah the definiton of a mental illness "diagnosis" changes with the times.

Hysteria used to be VERY COMMON for women. In fact most anything inconvenient that women felt or expressed was obvious "hysteria". Migraines? Hysteria! Depression? Hysteria! The list goes on and on.

Answer was to lobomotize or lock them up.

In this case I say lock them up and let them adjust to a life of incarceration. Euthanasia is not practical.

 

[Ausgirl]

I get the feeling there's something of a disconnect between "understanding the cause" and "making excuses".

I haven't seen one single poster say "ooh poor kiddies, I hope they get off scot free". So I don't understand why all the hooplah about it.

Is it because juvenile courts don't hand out long sentences? Are there not juvenile facilities that are spartan enough to serve as punishment cells for a crime this heinous?

Why is trying them in juvie court so strenuously associated with 'special treatment' and unsuitable sentences? Would they be automatically ejected from all state care once they turn 18?

I am genuinely asking these things, as it all seems a bit odd to be arguing things that aren't actually being argued, that I can see. Maybe I'm just not seeing it?

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

Ugh...I did say, "I am not assuming they are not able to be rehabilitated. I am saying IF that is the case."

I know ya did. Just sharing how I was feeling about it.

 

[Elley Mae]

There is no way to diagnose "which mental illness" it is without more facts and information and without a professional spending time with them, evaluating them, and doing a full psychosocial.

You don't need a diagnosis to opine that there may be underlying mental health issues with the little information that has been released.

If one of many mental illnesses can't be named then how can mental illness be claimed?

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness

I don't see anything on the list of mental illnesses that is associated with murder either. jmo idk

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I get the feeling there's something of a disconnect between "understanding the cause" and "making excuses".

I haven't seen one single poster say "ooh poor kiddies, I hope they get off scot free". So I don't understand why all the hooplah about it.

Is it because juvenile courts don't hand out long sentences? Are there not juvenile facilities that are spartan enough to serve as punishment cells for a crime this heinous?

Why is trying them in juvie court so strenuously associated with 'special treatment' and unsuitable sentences? Would they be automatically ejected from all state care once they turn 18?

I am genuinely asking these things, as it all seems a bit odd to be arguing things that aren't actually being argued, that I can see. Maybe I'm just not seeing it?

IMO -- I believe I understand why some feel the way they do about mental illness being brought into the realm of possibility. IMO A mental illness diagnosis leads some to believe that these girls won't do the time others feel they deserve. A mental illness diagnosis could mean less time spent paying for their crimes. I truly understand it.

 

[Salem]

Please note - we speculate here. We read information and draw our own conclusions. Opinions are allowed provided they are within TOS. Theories are allowed provided there is some basis for them in the facts of the case.

Don't tell others how to post and don't argue about what can or cannot be posted. If there is a problem, alert the post and scroll. Engaging in back and forth bickering will result in all parties looking in, from the outside.

Salem

 

[Spice]

If one of many mental illnesses can't be named then how can mental illness be claimed?

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness

I don't see anything on the list of mental illnesses that is associated with murder either. jmo idk

I think Aus answered and her answer was pretty clear and definitive. Again, a diagnosis is not "kneejerk", cannot be given in 24 hours, and cannot be given on this board.

But reasonable people can make the inference from what absolutely delusional things these girls have said that there are underlying mental health issues for at least one of them.

And many things on the "mental illness" list can lead to violent tendencies and acts. Mood disorders and personality disorders included. Anti social personality disorder? Narcissism ? Schizoaffective disorder? Schizophrenia? There are many. Google around . You will find them. The DSM is full of them and its about 8 inches thick.

 

[JeannaT]

I've never understood the whole tried as an adult issue (especially not for children this age). These girls are not considered mature enough to: purchase firearms, alcohol, tobacco products, vote, enlist in the armed services, or heck even drive. But... they're mature enough to stand trial as adults? Even when it's been studied how part of the human brain doesn't fully understand cause/effect until our mid 20s?

The laws recognize that children are not mature or worldly enough for any of the above (except driving at 16). I'm supposed to believe the law knows better in this case? They can't drink, drive, etc. But, they can stand trial as adults for attempted murder? I don't agree, this feels like the law likes to pick and choose which child has an adult brain. The very fact that they're children means they won't have an already matured brain.

Anyway, JMO. It's always bothered me that this happens. :truce:

I agree. These girls aren't old enough even to be left at a public pool by themselves in a hotel. I don't agree - at all - with ever charging 12 year olds in adult court. They are children, and deserve to have the protections in place that we have for children, even if the charge is attempted murder.

Why bother to have juvenile courts and age limits associated with them if you're not going to follow that rule if you don't feel like it?

And now, for something completely different. I saw this walk down memory lane from the 50's advertisements today. Looks oppressive to me, and these were mainstream commercials.

http://www.walltowatch.com/view/8677/Advertisements You Wouldn't See Today

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't think they should be charged as adults either. I think they need to be charged as juveniles and get intense counseling while serving their time.

I think this is a product of kids run amok with little supervision and underdeveloped social skills.

 

[Ausgirl]

It occurs to me, quite on the other hand, that these girls -may- have simply planned to kill their friend out of jealousy or some other 'mundane' motivation and are using the Slenderman thing to deflect blame from themselves.

I certainly do not subscribe to the concept that they'd be "evil" if this were so (though I have to wonder, if they *were* 'evil', and 'evil' was somehow quantifiable enough to be used in a court of law, would 'the devil made me do it' be a valid defense'?).

But it -might- mean they're more in control of themselves than they're letting on.I do think 12 year old are quite capable of this level of manipulation, and more.

Not a theory I'm sold on, just another thing to speculate on.

 

[Spice]

It occurs to me, quite on the other hand, that these girls -may- have simply planned to kill their friend out of jealousy or some other 'mundane' motivation and are using the Slenderman thing to deflect blame from themselves.

I certainly do not subscribe to the concept that they'd be "evil" if this were so (though I have to wonder, if they *were* 'evil', and 'evil' was somehow quantifiable enough to be used in a court of law, would 'the devil made me do it' be a valid defense'?).

But it -might- mean they're more in control of themselves than they're letting on.I do think 12 year old are quite capable of this level of manipulation, and more.

Not a theory I'm sold on, just another thing to speculate on.

Like Skylar Neese? I still think about her and what happened to her. It disturbed me to my core. In fact, when I first read the headline regarding this case I thought of her immediately.

It is something to think about. 3 can be a terrible number with adolescent girls. That dynamic can get ugly.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

It occurs to me, quite on the other hand, that these girls -may- have simply planned to kill their friend out of jealousy or some other 'mundane' motivation and are using the Slenderman thing to deflect blame from themselves.

I certainly do not subscribe to the concept that they'd be "evil" if this were so (though I have to wonder, if they *were* 'evil', and 'evil' was somehow quantifiable enough to be used in a court of law, would 'the devil made me do it' be a valid defense'?).

But it -might- mean they're more in control of themselves than they're letting on.I do think 12 year old are quite capable of this level of manipulation, and more.

Not a theory I'm sold on, just another thing to speculate on.

It is a possibility but I don't think so. I think that these girls somehow really became completely involved in this legend.

 

[pjclover]

I do dismiss facts that people or children are just "evil" because evil is not a fact nor is it tangible. No offense, but that kind of thinking is for religious texts and does dismiss mental illness entirely. It focuses on the event and not the cause and it is the 'cure all' term we use to explain horrific events.

I have yet to meet a family without mental illness present, including my own. That is the point. It's very common and very dismissed by simplistic terms such as 'evil" . jmo

I do dismiss facts that people or children are just "evil" because evil is not a fact nor is it tangible. No offense, but that kind of thinking is for religious texts and does dismiss mental illness entirely. It focuses on the event and not the cause and it is the 'cure all' term we use to explain horrific events.

I have yet to meet a family without mental illness present, including my own. That is the point. It's very common and very dismissed by simplistic terms such as 'evil" . jmo

Wait a second - there are LOTS of things that are intangible that are still actual and factual. Emotions, love, hate, etc. Like many mental illnesses and behavioral diagnosis, we look at tangible symptoms and provide them with an intangible label.

In fact, isn't the diagnosis of most mental illnesses and behavioral conditions based on subjective observation of empirical evidence rather than a neurological scan in all but the most serious cases? I'm asking in earnest, because I've never known anyone who was diagnosed by medical testing, so I'm assuming it's not as common.

I've used the term "evil" in conversation with you and never once dismissed mental illness as being real, existing, common, or possible. It is all of those things and just may be present here as well. I just also happen to believe that not every single action that is wrong or violent is caused by a true malfunction of a mental process.

I respect the difference of opinion if you believe that every murderer is mentally ill. I disagree. I think there are personality traits caused by environment, genetics, and circumstances that are not mental illnesses that cause people to make poor decisions because they simply want to. I call that evil, and I'm neither religious, dismissive, or (in my opinion) simplistic. Maybe you assign another term to it, maybe you don't believe it exists, but I've seen enough proof that mere sociopaths exist with completely average brains. For lack of a better word in my vocabulary, I call them evil.

 

[peedoffinny]

There's allot of interesting debates going on here. My opinion is that these girls should never be allowed free again. I don't care if they're 12, they're old enough to know what they were planning was wrong and did it anyways. With that kind of thinking, I think they'll always be a risk for society.
I'm just really puzzled how 2 (mentally ill or evil - take your pick) girls just happen to be best friends and have the same mental illness or evilness to do such a thing. I wonder if one was the leader and convinced the other or if they were equal in their plans. I know at 12 years old, if someone suggested we stab somebody to death, I'd run and tell my parents in a heartbeat and would never be convinced to do it. Really disturbing.

 

[Really?]

I've never understood the whole tried as an adult issue (especially not for children this age). These girls are not considered mature enough to: purchase firearms, alcohol, tobacco products, vote, enlist in the armed services, or heck even drive. But... they're mature enough to stand trial as adults? Even when it's been studied how part of the human brain doesn't fully understand cause/effect until our mid 20s?

The laws recognize that children are not mature or worldly enough for any of the above (except driving at 16). I'm supposed to believe the law knows better in this case? They can't drink, drive, etc. But, they can stand trial as adults for attempted murder? I don't agree, this feels like the law likes to pick and choose which child has an adult brain. The very fact that they're children means they won't have an already matured brain.

Anyway, JMO. It's always bothered me that this happens. :truce:

I kinda want to agree, but, please keep them away for society. However it gets done.

 

[Nymeria]

Yeah the definiton of a mental illness "diagnosis" changes with the times.

Hysteria used to be VERY COMMON for women. In fact most anything inconvenient that women felt or expressed was obvious "hysteria". Migraines? Hysteria! Depression? Hysteria! The list goes on and on.

Answer was to lobomotize or lock them up.

In this case I say lock them up and let them adjust to a life of incarceration. Euthanasia is not practical.

Let's inject a bit of levity into this thread.
Anyone familiar with the "treatment" for Hysteria in the Victorian age?

http://jezebel.com/5914350/vibrator...torian-doctors-took-control-of-womens-orgasms

Female hysteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hysteria (2011 film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think some of these doctors enjoyed giving their treatments immensely :giggle:

(Hope this OK to post, it IS medical history!)