GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Gardenlady]

I don't think many have pitch forks out for these two but I won't lie, I don't think that them being out of jail ever is a good thing. I do *NOT* want them dead.

I think it is owed to their victim that they get a very long sentence.

If they were 17 or 18, I would find the idea of a longer sentence (though still not as long as some would call for) less objectionable. But at 12 there is still so much more development to go through yet - the chances for rehabilitation are much better than with an older adolescent, I have to imagine.




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[Spice]

"Psychopathy may not be so much the incapacity to empathize, but a reduced propensity to empathize, paired with a preserved capacity to empathize when required to do so."

That is SUCH an interesting article! So these guys might be able to make the CHOICE to just turn their empathy on and off at will? That changes the conversation totally, imo.

Yes. Especially if it serves them in some way. They mimic the behaviors of others around them to appear normal. They do nothing that does serve their wants and desires, and can appear quite empathic, charming, and lovely when they need too. That is what makes them so freaking scary. They are even known to "fool" professional psychologists they are so adept at turning emotions on and off, mimicking, and masking. They are chameleons. I always feel freaked out when people say "I"m a chameleon", I fit any where. That always sets alarms off in my head because that means you can shift who you are to fit into the situation, believably and adeptly.

 

[blue22]

Have you a link?

Sure. Disclaimer, though - I'm am leaving for lunch, so this is the first link I pulled. I have read the post before, but it's just one and I don't necessarily think it's the best one. I do think it's good information and there are studies sited at the bottom you can find.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

 

[Celeste]

Imagined audience also takes place in about the same developmental period as the Personal Fable, I think - which due to the egocentric nature of the early adolescent can lead to feelings of invulnerability and over-importance.

Adolescence is truly a toxic swamp for the mind lol.


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I totally agree. Adolescence is an age where they need so much more support than we often think in order to for their minds to continue to develop in a healthy manner. That's why all the gore and violence and sex and such that kids are so often exposed to does matter. If you have children whose minds are marinating in that nastiness during this very delicate point in their development, we should not be surprised when we don't like the results.
Now does it exposure to darkness, death, and violence always result in murder and mayhem? No, of course not.
But if I eat in an unhealthy way all my life and I don't get cancer as a result, am I going to claim that eating poorly is alright because I did it and came out fine? No, of course not. It's just that some people are simply more susceptible to negative influence than others. Because we don't know who the susceptible people are, we just agree that it's best to eat as healthily as we can. Don't we?

 

[Gardenlady]

Actually it seems to me those phrases are quite restrained BECAUSE of the assailants ages.



"Put them down" is not at all like the terms that would be used for adult killers that stabbed an innocent trusting 12 year old 19 times in an attempt to killer her.



"Put them down" infers don't make them suffer.

If they can be rehabilitated, then there is no suffering. It is a gain for both these children and for society as well.

Calling for a child to be put down, or calling them worthless is just about the most heartless and *hopeless* attitude I think one could have. Really, if we are just going to give up on any child at the age of twelve, whether by putting them down or putting them in a cage for life, then we are doing pretty poorly as so-called civilized people.


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[ellemo]

Regarding your last paragraph, I was just reading a study the other day that looked into sociopaths and empathy, and how they ARE able to empathize when asked to; the researchers said how this can open up therapy avenues for such people:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263964.php

It is a very interested article, but it pretty much echos what wrote in my post:

The researchers suggest that therapies for psychopathic individuals should focus
on making their already-existing empathy ability more automatic in order to prevent them from harming others, rather than creating a capacity for empathy. But, they add, it is uncertain how this would be done.​

Assuming they are psychopaths and not simply delusional (which could actually be relatively easy to cure) then I just have to channel my inner Spock and say the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and they should be kept out of society for a long time since we do not know how to help them.

At the very least, it will give one little girl some measure of peace of mind.

That does not mean that I don't think they should get some sort of help. I am all for that.

This is a horrible crime, regardless of the age. They are old enough to know that their friends was in pain and still kept hurting her. They are old enough to know what death is a that it is permanent and they left her to die.

So no, as another poster mentioned, I don't have much compassion for these girls. And it is not some sense of moral superiority. Maybe those who can find compassion are just better people than I am. I don't know.

There are just certain things that are not forgivable. Stabbing someone multiple times is not quick. They planned for months. I just can't find any compassion within myself for someone who did that, no matter what the reason.

 

[Ausgirl]

Wow, I must have missed this. I didn't see anything about putting them down here.

I didn't see see that comment here, is why. I'm talking about the general reaction around the web.

 

[Spice]

Actually it seems to me those phrases are quite restrained BECAUSE of the assailants ages.

"Put them down" is not at all like the terms that would be used for adult wannabe killers that stabbed an innocent trusting 12 year old girl 19 times in then told her to "lay still and quiet so you don't bleed to fast, we will get help" so she would die queitly.

"Put them down" infers don't make them suffer.

It does? Because for me that infers to euthanize them like an animal. There is nothing humanizing or compassionate in that statement when directed at 12 year old children.

 

[blue22]

I didn't see see that comment here, is why. I'm talking about the general reaction around the web.

Oh, I see. I do think that language is really callous when referring to a juvenile. I think the fact that it's the internet has a lot to do with it. People might just be hiding behind a screen.

 

[MyBelle]

While I agree with those who think the girls should have had an adult present during interrogation, in this case it is a non issue. They were caught with the weapons and the victim is alive and capable of testifying. If anything, the confessions can help the girls get some sort of insanity or diminished capacity defense. If they throw that out and the judge rules no mention of Slenderman, then you are left with two girls, a bloody knife and a victim testifying that they did it with no provocation.

I do not care if their brains are still growing. I do not care how this is identified (mental illness/ evil/ bad parenting/ delusional). Even with their undeveloped brains, they understood it was wrong. They had no remorse. That is enough for me to want them put away for quite a while.

Truly, I really don't see how girls like this can get "better" or become active member of society. I don't care if others have done it in the past. Statistically, violent offenders are very likely to repeat their crime. This isn't someone who robbed a convenience store and shot the clerk in the process. A gun goes off and they panic and run away. That is someone I believe could "recover" if they wanted to.

These are girls who planned this for months. One girl freaked out and couldn't go through with it at first, but she wanted to do this so much that she was able to calm herself down enough to go through with it. The poor child was stabbed over a dozen times. After each thrust, the stabber could have stopped, the other girl could have run away for help. Neither did. They told the girl to lie down so she would die. Then they walked away. How do you become a member of society after that?

How can you develop empathy when you have none for your friend as she screams out in terror and pain? And then leave her to die?

BBM. I totally agree with you. The confessions really aren't of any value. If they premeditated the crime, they premeditated their cover story of blaming it all on some mythic character.

I can understand why the prosecutor and police decided to release all of this. They want the public to clearly understand the role parenting and lack thereof has played in this. The community is very lucky these girls did not decide to walk into a school with knives. These are 12-year-old killers who got that way in large part because they were allowed to spend way too much time unsupervised and exposed to gratuitous violence. Parents buy the computers, pay for the Internet, the video games and then turn their kids loose.

The lack of empathy for their victim is beyond chilling and the degree of violence they are capable of will keep them locked up but not together for a very long time. Adam Lanza... Elliot Rodger...who knows how many more manipulative, unsupervised kids are out there honing their thirst for violence. Some parents learned nothing from Columbine.

JMO

 

[JeannaT]

I was a sociology major/psych minor and this empathy discussion is SO INTERESTING to me! Kids without empathy have a cognitive difficulty seeing another perspective than their own.

There was this one study where a child was placed across the table from the researcher. There were bold colorful stripes painted on the table.

The child was asked, look down and tell me what color is closest to your body. The child would answer correctly. Then he was asked, when I look down, what is the color I would see closest to my body? Kids without empathy often answered the color they themselves saw and literally couldn't imagine the question from the other person's perspective - that when the researcher looked down, they would see a different color, from a different perspective, than the child would.

I saw this on film and was really amazed. These kids didn't know anyone else had a different viewpoint than what they had - like everyone was an extension, physically, of themselves. Which is a belief most babies grow out of at about the age of 10 months, I think.

 

[Celeste]

Yes. Especially if it serves them in some way. They mimic the behaviors of others around them to appear normal. They do nothing that does serve their wants and desires, and can appear quite empathic, charming, and lovely when they need too. That is what makes them so freaking scary. They are even known to "fool" professional psychologists they are so adept at turning emotions on and off, mimicking, and masking. They are chameleons. I always feel freaked out when people say "I"m a chameleon", I fit any where. That always sets alarms off in my head because that means you can shift who you are to fit into the situation, believably and adeptly.

I just find it interesting that there is so much choice involved along the way. They can choose whether or not to empathize with a person in a given situation, and then they can choose whether or not they will victimize that person. I always understood that their lack of empathy was something they could not control, that they were just born that way and could not be expected to react to others in the same way the rest of us do.

 

[Ausgirl]

My problem with "throw away the key" is this:

- one or both girls could indeed be delusional and in need of urgent medical help.

- it could also be that the urge to kill came from the particular dynamic of the two girls together. In an article I've linked a couple of times here, several forensic psychologists think this is probably so.

I've said I have seen this dynamic (to a lesser extent) in person. After being separated, one child (mine) quickly bounced back from the spiral of negativity she was caught in, because she wasn't unbalanced to begin with. The other one, who I believe had some serious psych issues but was *really* good at hiding them (I took her for mental evaluation because her parent didn't care to and they said she was 'mildly depressed' - she was much, much more than that, thank god I split them up before it got as bad as it did).

So maybe time apart will bring one or both girls back to a healthy mental state, as happened with the NZ girls. There really is hope that might happen. I hope for their sakes, and their family's sakes, it does.

- There are adult killers who actually succeed in killing and don't get that long in prison, so I highly doubt they'll get 65 yrs. Understanding them, helping them to heal or deal with whatever has made them want to kill at that age, I think is vital for all concerned.

 

[MyBelle]

It truly makes me sad to see the pitchforks come out for two 12 year olds.

Should they be punished? Heck yes. I think they should be incarcerated for a long, long time.

I just don't get that people "don't care" about this or that fact which offers explanation for their behaviour, and are all out for blood, rah rah. It's just distasteful to see website after website filled with hatred and "put them down" and "throw away the key" and "they'll never be rehabilitated".

I find it a bit revolting, really, especially when people claim to be compassionate. The fact is, these kids *will* get out and probably before they're 35. So is it not better to hope they can be helped, if not out of the kindness of your heart than just for the safety of the people they'll be mingling with after release?

Having compassion for child criminals also doesn't mean lack of compassion for the victim, are people so desperate to feel morally superior that they can't understand that?

I find these kids scary. I also find the depth of hatred for them among the adult public scary.

BBM. Sorry, but it is not a fact they'll get out before they are 35. Neither will be released until psychiatrists deem them to be safe around the public. That may be never.

[modsnip]. There is nothing moral about torturing and trying to murder a child.
JMO

 

[blue22]

I was a sociology major/psych minor and this empathy discussion is SO INTERESTING to me! Kids without empathy have a cognitive difficulty seeing another perspective than their own.

There was this one study where a child was placed across the table from the researcher. There were bold colorful stripes painted on the table.

The child was asked, look down and tell me what color is closest to your body. The child would answer correctly. Then he was asked, when I look down, what is the color I would see closest to my body? Kids without empathy often answered the color they themselves saw and literally couldn't imagine the question from the other person's perspective - that when the researcher looked down, they would see a different color, from a different perspective, than the child would.

I saw this on film and was really amazed. These kids didn't know anyone else had a different viewpoint than what they had - like everyone was an extension, physically, of themselves. Which is a belief most babies grow out of at about the age of 10 months, I think.

My nephew (5 years old) has a startling lack of empathy. I often wonder what you can do for that. They have tried all the therapies available to children and nothing has helped. It sounds bad, but it's quite interesting to watch him. How he functions, chooses, thinks. It's scary that he is this way, but also interesting.

 

[Karmady]

To me, this is the part that I am not understanding. I get that they were read their Miranda rights, I do hope that there was a social worker or something present that would be able to help them to understand what was being asked of them. I would hate for a case to hinge on something like that. People have gotten off for less, right?

I am wondering if they didn't understand their rights and confessed, if their confessions could be thrown out? I don't fully understand American Law so this is a genuine question.

Imo, their confessions can easily be challenged under existing law if the parents did not consent (see the links I posted above - there are tons more). The court would need to determine whether their rights were understood and freely waived in the "totality of the circumstances." In this case, though, it probably won't matter since, as someone else mentioned, there's a living victim and lots of physical evidence. There also may never be a trial, imo.

 

[JeannaT]

My nephew (5 years old) has a startling lack of empathy. I often wonder what you can do for that. They have tried all the therapies available to children and nothing has helped. It sounds bad, but it's quite interesting to watch him. How he functions, chooses, thinks. It's scary that he is this way, but also interesting.

I wonder if he's brushed with autism? I knew this boy who wasn't cruel, for the pleasure of being cruel (we've all seen kids like that), but he really had zero empathy for other kids or other living things. When his grandmother died, and his father was sobbing, he said in a curious way, "dad your face looks really weird". Wow. He also couldn't play that Discovery Toys "Faces" game where you have to imitate expressions in photographs of children, or pick out pictures to match with words "Surprised" "Sad" "Happy", etc.

Could your nephew do that? It would be interesting to know.

 

[Ausgirl]

like everyone was an extension, physically, of themselves. Which is a belief most babies grow out of at about the age of 10 months, I think.

I did soc/pych too!

I have a theory that in these obsessive pairings among children that lead to violence and killing, at least one of the kids sees the other as an extension of self. The other child would have other needs met in the partnership, which I shall think about a bit more, what do you think?

 

[Sonya610]

If they can be rehabilitated, then there is no suffering. It is a gain for both these children and for society as well.

So would you be willing to stake YOUR child's life on that? That they CAN be rehabilitated and won't wantonly kill again, if the future potential victim would be YOUR kid. Would you risk it?

Serious question.

 

[Spice]

No, they're not. They're *exactly* the same. It's just two terms for the same thing. True fact.

You are exactly right Ausgirl.

And also, in that study I sent you about the typology of school shooters, the psychologist explained that the reason he chose to use the category "Pychopathic" instead of "Anti-Social' or is because it is unethical and you are not allowed to diagnose a child under 18 as Anti-Social. (BECAUSE THEIR BRAINS ARE STILL DEVELOPING AND SO ARE THEIR PERSONALITIES) So to group the shooters in his sample that he believed to be Anti Social in nature he used "Psychopathic".

Anti Social is an actual diagnoses in the DSM. Psychopathic is more of an adjective to use to describe Anti-Social, especially when a professional is speaking of a child who is not of age to be legally diagnosed Anti-Social.

Instead, psychopathic can be used to describe it in children or Anti-Social tendencies.

Its just an ethical sticking point. And "Sociopathy" or "Sociopath" is no longer used in the DSM or in the professional literature. It has been replaced with Anti-Social Personality disorder. You will still see "Sociopath" used and thrown around but never in professional literature or the diagnostic manual.