GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Spice]

My nephew (5 years old) has a startling lack of empathy. I often wonder what you can do for that. They have tried all the therapies available to children and nothing has helped. It sounds bad, but it's quite interesting to watch him. How he functions, chooses, thinks. It's scary that he is this way, but also interesting.

Like how? Can you explain? It's ok if you don't want to share. Just curious.

 

[JeannaT]

Wow. This is a study in itself. It's interesting how many of us who are very drawn to sociology/psychology/knowtheDSM feel inclined to try to figure out what is going on with these girls, what caused this horrific act, how it can be prevented.

I guess that's not that interesting at all. It's intuitive that those who are interested in sociology and psychology would also be more interested in discussing the whys and hows [modsnip]

Interesting forum, as always.

 

[nursebeeme]

as a nurse erik erikson is one of my favorite theorists of psychosocial development that I use to guide my own nursing practice

http://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html

at any time in the scale you can be "held back" by issues in your life. That being said, "identity vs role confusion" is where these two would normally fall in this scale.

Also in group situations there is usually a "leader" and based on what I have read on this case so far the two seemed to feed into one another based on their magical thinking . I am sure that one of the two thought this fictitious character was "real" and convinced the other one. As to the organic nature of why this happened.. I am sure this will come about after the proper legal documents are filed to get them both psychologically evaluated (I am sure this will happen imhoo :twocents

With all the above being said this will not be the first or the last (sadly said) child that is homicidal.

All the above is just my personal opinion as a nurse.

I truly do hope that both girls will be evaluated and I am so very glad that the girl that they stabbed did not die. That truly cannot be understated imhoo.

 

[Ausgirl]

I like to use 'sociopath' because I did my degrees while the dinosaurs were still the process of being fossilised. :blushing: And it's shorter to type. =P

 

[appleeye]

If they can be rehabilitated, then there is no suffering. It is a gain for both these children and for society as well.

Calling for a child to be put down, or calling them worthless is just about the most heartless and *hopeless* attitude I think one could have. Really, if we are just going to give up on any child at the age of twelve, whether by putting them down or putting them in a cage for life, then we are doing pretty poorly as so-called civilized people.


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I guess that is an "if". I would imagine that time in jail will only teach them new tricks. Some can be, yes. It could happen. I would rather a longer sentence with a chance at parole with proper psychiatric rehabilitation.

One of the boys that killed the boy in England has re-entered prison yet the other has lived a quiet life. The two from the Heavenly creatures movie have rehabilitated. It is possible. U.S. prisons from what I have read, do not offer a lot of psychiatric support and counseling.

 

[Spice]

as a nurse erik erikson is one of my favorite theorists of psychosocial development that I use to guide my own nursing practice

http://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html

at any time in the scale you can be "held back" by issues in your life. That being said, "identity vs role confusion" is where these two would normally fall in this scale.

Also in group situations there is usually a "leader" and based on what I have read on this case so far the two seemed to feed into one another based on their magical thinking . I am sure that one of the two thought this fictitious character was "real" and convinced the other one. As to the organic nature of why this happened.. I am sure this will come about after the proper legal documents are filed to get them both psychologically evaluated (I am sure this will happen imhoo :twocents

With all the above being said this will not be the first or the last (sadly said) child that is homicidal.

All the above is just my personal opinion as a nurse.

I truly do hope that both girls will be evaluated and I am so very glad that the girl that they stabbed did not die. That truly cannot be understated imhoo.

I LOVE Erikson and developmental stage theory in general. Erikson is my favorite. I never could stand Freud although his "defense mechanisms" were prolific and brilliant and very relevant.

I also love Skinner in my own way.

 

[Ausgirl]

I'm not a fan of Skinner... and Freud was scared of his own beard, for goodness' sake. Erikson is pretty awesome though.

I'd love to go back and refresh my degrees, so much has changed since I was at Uni.

 

[appleeye]

Imo, their confessions can easily be challenged under existing law if the parents did not consent (see the links I posted above - there are tons more). The court would need to determine whether their rights were understood and freely waived in the "totality of the circumstances." In this case, though, it probably won't matter since, as someone else mentioned, there's a living victim and lots of physical evidence. There also may never be a trial, imo.

Honestly, it would be great if there were no trial but I have a funny feeling there will be a long and drawn out one.

With a proper confession, I think you may see a guilty plea and some sort of bargain. With a confession thrown out, you may see not guilty by reason of insanity. But that is just my opinion.

That is why, in my thinking, that confession is so important. Save a trial for the victim. Surely she has been through enough.

 

[Spice]

i'm not a fan of skinner... and freud was scared of his own beard, for goodness' sake. Erikson is pretty awesome though.

I'd love to go back and refresh my degrees, so much has changed since i was at uni.

lol!!!!!!

 

[Spice]

U.S. prisons from what I have read, do not offer a lot of psychiatric support and counseling.

They do in "theory" but it is woefully woefully lacking and pathetic.

Also, these girls are 12. There are only 12 prisons left in the nation that offer education and degree programs. Clinton cut them long ago. ( I know, bizarre)

I'm sure jaws will drop here, one of my professors did 25 years for 2nd degree murder. He was convicted when he was 18. He started doing his time in Sing Sing and happened to be placed in one of 12 the prisons left in the nation that still invests and funds degree programs.

He earned two masters degrees in prison, one in Theology and the other in Social Justice.

He has was released from prison 8 years ago, is in the process of getting his P.hD in Social Justice and is a professor of Social Research.

He is one of the best professors I have ever had and an amazing person, and certainly not the same person he was at 18 years old. He believes in consequences and responsibility for crimes, including his own

He has also written and published many papers on the effects of prison on the human mind and the PTSD that comes along with it. He runs a non profit that concentrates on stopping recidivism amongst the formally incarcerated through education, anger management, and social and life skills.

He is writing his dissertation on America's problem of Mass Incarceration especially amongst African American men and he is right, it is epidemic.

He is the epitome of what prison rehabilitation looks like. But he was also lucky enough to be housed in one of the few adult prisons left in America that still invests in education and rehabilitation. And we have a plethora of prisons.

 

[Elley Mae]

Honestly, it would be great if there were no trial but I have a funny feeling there will be a long and drawn out one.

With a proper confession, I think you may see a guilty plea and some sort of bargain. With a confession thrown out, you may see not guilty by reason of insanity. But that is just my opinion.

That is why, in my thinking, that confession is so important. Save a trial for the victim. Surely she has been through enough.

Yeah, I'm thinking a plea deal of some sort. The evidence is there and with the victims statement its pretty wrapped up.

 

[MyBelle]

Honestly, it would be great if there were no trial but I have a funny feeling there will be a long and drawn out one.

With a proper confession, I think you may see a guilty plea and some sort of bargain. With a confession thrown out, you may see not guilty by reason of insanity. But that is just my opinion.

That is why, in my thinking, that confession is so important. Save a trial for the victim. Surely she has been through enough.

I doubt there will be a trial any time soon. I think there will be a competency determination that will push back any trial until much, much later. Maybe years.

JMO

 

[appleeye]

They do in "theory" but it is woefully woefully lacking and pathetic.

Also, these girls are 12. There are only 12 prisons left in the nation that offer education and degree programs. Clinton cut them long ago. ( I know, bizarre)

I'm sure jaws will drop here, one of my professors did 25 years for 2nd degree murder. He was convicted when he was 18. He started doing his time in Sing Sing and happened to be placed in one of 12 the prisons left in the nation that still invests and funds degree programs.

He earned two masters degrees in prison, one in Theology and the other in Social Justice.

He has was released from prison 8 years ago, is in the process of getting his P.hD in Social Justice and is a professor of Social Research.

He is one of the best professors I have ever had and an amazing person.

He has also written and published many papers on the effects of prison on the human mind and the PTSD that comes along with it. He runs a non profit that concentrates on stopping recidivism amongst the formally incarcerated through education, anger management, and social and life skills.

He writing his dissertation on America's problem of Mass Incarceration especially amongst African American men and he is right.

He is the epitome of what prison rehabilitation looks like.

WOW! Good for him!!! Really , bravo. That is excellent that he went to great lengths to do better for himself.

I do find that interesting that Clinton cut those prisons. 12 prisons, and how many of them are in Wisconsin? because no doubt they will try and keep these girls near home.

 

[appleeye]

I doubt there will be a trial any time soon. I think there will be a competency determination that will push back any trial until much, much later. Maybe years.

JMO

Even worse for the victim. I don't think there will ever be a good time for her to relive this.

 

[blue22]

Like how? Can you explain? It's ok if you don't want to share. Just curious.

I don't mind explaining him a little.

He simply can't understand that other people can feel anything, at all. He will kick a dog, because he is curious about what happens when he does. He doesn't approach it from a violent place. Like, he isn't interested in hurting the dog, hurting the dog is just what he has to do to fulfill the curiosity. (Does that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating.) We were at a local water park and a child started having a serious allergic reaction to something. All the kids were curious about what was happening, but he actually got a chair and treated it like a circus. He hopes for the very worst thing to happen to the child, because he thinks it's cool to watch. (We did not allow him to each like that, but it's certainly what he wanted.) He is very cunning, manipulative, and can lie with the best of them. To be truthful, he was different from birth. He would cry and cry and cry. For hours on end. Not just colic, but screaming raging crying fits until he had no voice. They did all kinds of medical tests, thinking he must actually be in pain. They never were able to find something wrong with him. When he was around 8 months, he started throwing violent fits if he did not get what he wanted. He would throw things at the windows and try to break them. He would grab hair and try to headbutt whoever was carrying him. One time I was picking him up, because we were at someones house who didn't have outlet covers. He was very curious about them and I was concerned he would stick his finger in. (Teething baby, wet fingers, outlet...not a good mix, lol.) He actually tried to stick his fingers into my eyeballs and bit me so hard on the cheek I still have a slight scar. He from a very young age gets mad at the person he hurts. He's mad that we are upset, because in his mind he is always in the right. (This can be a very common child mentality, but his is more extreme than even close to the norm.

His behavior is very dark, and very concerning. To his fathers credit, he has really tried to help for a long time. Psychologists of course can only do so much with a child this young. Most children grow out of their lack of empathy, is what they've said. While they are concerned, they can only assume his is young and will mature. Right now, it's just specialized therapy to help with empathy and other people's feelings. I try to be hopeful for him, but he seems to be a very violent criminal in the making. I hope all this therapy helps him.

 

[JeannaT]

Even worse for the victim. I don't think there will ever be a good time for her to relive this.

No, I agree. There will never be a good time to relive this.

I think she'd do well recovering if this happened with two complete strangers who attacked her - but having friends betray you and even attempt to MURDER you is about the hardest thing to over come there is, as far as assaults go.

 

[blue22]

Imo, their confessions can easily be challenged under existing law if the parents did not consent (see the links I posted above - there are tons more). The court would need to determine whether their rights were understood and freely waived in the "totality of the circumstances." In this case, though, it probably won't matter since, as someone else mentioned, there's a living victim and lots of physical evidence. There also may never be a trial, imo.

The existing law does not require parents to consent. It can't be thrown out on those grounds. If their rights were not understood by them, they have something there. But, the parental thing does not factor in. They simply don't have to be there under the law.

 

[Elley Mae]

I doubt there will be a trial any time soon. I think there will be a competency determination that will push back any trial until much, much later. Maybe years.

JMO

alyssa bustamonte just tried to get her life w/parole thrown out because she didn't know about a pending case that would find mandatory life prison sentences for juveniles as unconstitutional. It didn't work.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=1017111

 

[MyBelle]

WOW! Good for him!!! Really , bravo. That is excellent that he went to great lengths to do better for himself.

I do find that interesting that Clinton cut those prisons. 12 prisons, and how many of them are in Wisconsin? because no doubt they will try and keep these girls near home.

Prisons are run by the state department of corrections, not the feds. I'm not sure where the poster got that information because I think every state offers either high school or GED programs to inmates and there are also self-study programs.

Here's Wisconsin: http://doc.wi.gov/families-visitors/juvenile-services

 

[Karmady]

The existing law does not require parents to consent. It can't be thrown out on those grounds. If their rights were not understood by them, they have something there. But, the parental thing does not factor in. They simply don't have to be there under the law.

I mentioned the parents' possible consent for the opposite reason. Although they're not required to, if they did I think that would be sufficient. jmo