GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[MyBelle]

alyssa bustamonte just tried to get her life w/parole thrown out because she didn't know about a pending case that would find mandatory life prison sentences for juveniles as unconstitutional. It didn't work.

http://www.connectmidmissouri.com/news/story.aspx?list=366949&id=1017111

She was several years older than these girls.

I doubt any Judge would accept a plea from a 12-year-old child. I think that is a non-issue in this case at this time.

JMO

 

[Spice]

I don't mind explaining him a little.

He simply can't understand that other people can feel anything, at all. He will kick a dog, because he is curious about what happens when he does. He doesn't approach it from a violent place. Like, he isn't interested in hurting the dog, hurting the dog is just what he has to do to fulfill the curiosity. All the kids were curious about what was happening, but he actually got a chair and treated it like a circus. To be truthful, he was different from birth. He would cry and cry and cry. For hours on end. Not just colic, but screaming raging crying fits until he had no voice. They did all kinds of medical tests, thinking he must actually be in pain. They never were able to find something wrong with him. When he was around 8 months, he started throwing violent fits if he did not get what he wanted. He would throw things at the windows and try to break them. He would grab hair and try to headbutt whoever was carrying him. He from a very young age gets mad at the person he hurts. He's mad that we are upset, because in his mind he is always in the right.

Right now, it's just specialized therapy to help with empathy and other people's feelings. I try to be hopeful for him, but he seems to be a very violent criminal in the making

RSBM.

Have they had him screened for Autism, Aspergers, or other spectrum disorders? Does he dislike touch or seem overly sensitive to it? Could that be why he flipped out and when people picked him up? How is his eye contact? Does he make eye contact with you, did he when he was a baby? When you talked to him? Held him? The situation certainly seems socially "off". Spectrum disorders and Autism/ Asperger's are social disorders and a lack of empathy is a marker. How are his verbal skills? Is he affectionate? Does he like to hug and be hugged? Does he stress out in crowds at all or around a lot of people? Any sort of twitches or ticks during those times? Verbal or speech issues?

Thank you for sharing this with us.

 

[appleeye]

Prisons are run by the state department of corrections, not the feds. I'm not sure where the poster got that information because I think every state offers either high school or GED programs to inmates and there are also self-study programs.

Here's Wisconsin: http://doc.wi.gov/families-visitors/juvenile-services

Looks like the girls facility is only minimum security in Wisconsin. Where would that land them, then?

I would assume attempted murder may get you a max. security for a youth

http://doc.wi.gov/families-visitors/faq#q2

 

[gitana1]

When I first started googling around about the whole slender man thing, it reminded me of books I read in grade school. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark. Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These books were first published in 1981 and are for a suggested reading level of ages 9 - 12.

They scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, but they were oh so much fun. Here are some of the illustrated images from the books, I understand that when there was reprint in later years that they were changed a bit. https://www.google.com/search?q=scary+stories+to+tell+in+the+dark&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SRuRU8OaNMmqyAS_54KYAw&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=799

I do realize that these books were on the list of "most frequently challenged books 90-99" but so was Harry Potter.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that is in no way unusual or odd for kids this age and younger to be reading "horror" stories. It's not uncommon for them to want to scare themselves with scary images and stories and then tell their friends about it.

I didn't find these books at the library or borrow them from some neglected and unattended friend. My mother purchased them for me through my Christian school's Scholastic Book Club program.

Just because relatively young children read scary stories doesn't mean that they don't understand that the things that happen are wrong and bad. Hence the reason that they are scary stories.

I think there is a hugely, incredible, tremendous, massive difference between kids reading "scary stories"'written for kids, or watching a horror movie now and then and what apparently happened here and in other cases: Constant, quick bombardment with violent horror via the internet, and twitter feeds or whatever that actually encourage kids to murder.

 

[blue22]

RSBM.

Have they had him screened for Autism, Aspergers, or other spectrum disorders? Does he dislike touch or seem overly sensitive to it? Could that be why he flipped out and when people picked him up? How is his eye contact? Does he make eye contact with you, did he when he was a baby? When you talked to him? Held him? The situation at the water park may be indicative of being socially "off". Spectrum disorders and Autism/ Asperger's are social disorders and a lack of empathy is a marker. How are his verbal skills? Is he affectionate? Does he like to hug and be hugged? Does he stress out in crowds at all or around a lot of people? Any sort of twitches or ticks during those times? Verbal or speech issues?

Thank you for sharing this with us.

-Very advanced verbally
-never had eye contact issue (In fact, he almost adores eye contact...too much. He likes to make people feel uncomfortable.)
-Can be very affectionate, but definitely will push you away if he doesn't feel like. He is not adverse, though.
-Works a crowd
-Never had "ticks"

They did do extensive evaluations, but was never found to be on the spectrum. They have done a lot, because he's been a bit puzzling. They are going through the children's hospital, and they just aren't sure what is up with him.

ETA: I should note, I have always believed my sister (his mother) is a psychopath. Not the violent type. She most definitely is narcissistic. She had a lot of issues as a child as well, and a lot of darkness. His is just more disturbing.

 

[MyBelle]

Looks like the girls facility is only minimum security in Wisconsin. Where would that land them, then?

I would assume attempted murder may get you a max. security for a youth

http://doc.wi.gov/families-visitors/faq#q2

They are going to land wherever the Judge decides to put them.

 

[LinasK]

Great post! Whenever I see people say things like "I'll save my sympathy/compassion for the victim only!" It always puzzles me, because it's not like there is a finite supply of sympathy or compassion in the world that we can "use up", and suddenly it will be gone, so we must prioritize our feelings! hoh: What a strange and difficult undertaking it would be to live in such a way.

And yes, talking about "putting down" 12 year olds, or calling children worthless is pretty damn scary.


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I think it's that people do NOT feel compassion for murderers. That's us turning off our empathy for them.
Who is talking about "putting them down"??? The Death Penalty is not an option in this case. That's what I think of when I hear that term- usually it's reserved for euthanizing an animal.
I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice for these two young murderers, but I am shocked at their age (considering I have a 13 year old) and their lack of remorse/compassion for their so-called "friend".

 

[appleeye]

They are going to land wherever the Judge decides to put them.

Do they stay in state? Can they be put out of state? Excuse my ignorance of your system

 

[LinasK]

My nephew (5 years old) has a startling lack of empathy. I often wonder what you can do for that. They have tried all the therapies available to children and nothing has helped. It sounds bad, but it's quite interesting to watch him. How he functions, chooses, thinks. It's scary that he is this way, but also interesting.

How does he react around puppies and kittens? Does he interact? Feel compassion for animals? This might be a good therapy provided he doesn't torture them.

 

[Spice]

I think there is a hugely, incredible, tremendous, massive difference between kids reading "scary stories"'written for kids, or watching a horror movie now and then and what apparently happened here and in other cases: Constant, quick bombardment with violent horror via the internet, and twitter feeds or whatever that actually encourage kids to murder.

Gitana, I agree. And i often wonder why, when our American culture is so violent, we are so surprised when children and adolescents kill and become violent.

They are being raised in a very violent culture outside (and sometimes inside) the home. A constant barrage of violent imagery on television and in movies, it's glorified, everywhere. War is glorified, video games are insanely violent and put the person in real virtual first person shooter status. America is obsessed , literally obsessed with guns. People are showing up in fast food restaurants to show off their weaponry and right to bear arms. Again, glorified.

You can access anything and everything on the internet 24 hours a day. School and rampage shootings almost weekly. Children's toys that reinforce a ridiculous narrative of unhealthy masculinity and violence. Violence , objectification and sexualiization of girls and women in almost every movie, or ad out there.

It is literally every where and part of their socialization, in our American Culture. There is a desensitization that comes along with all of this, and also a teaching of norms and what is acceptable. To ignore that is just silly and is to our detriment. Our children are not just products of their home environment, they are products of American Culture at its best. And they are becoming increasingly violent.

I read last night on the other thread that the man that just held a Canadian town in a 24 hour state of terror and went on a rampage shooting killing three police officers had studied American rampage shootings and was obsessive about guns. We are leading by example, in violence. It's disturbing and disheartening.

 

[MyBelle]

-Very advanced verbally
-never had eye contact issue (In fact, he almost adores eye contact...too much. He likes to make people feel uncomfortable.)
-Can be very affectionate, but definitely will push you away if he doesn't feel like. He is not adverse, though.
-Works a crowd
-Never had "ticks"

They did do extensive evaluations, but was never found to be on the spectrum. They have done a lot, because he's been a bit puzzling. They are going through the children's hospital, and they just aren't sure what is up with him.

ETA: I should note, I have always believed my sister (his mother) is a psychopath. Not the violent type. She most definitely is narcissistic. She had a lot of issues as a child as well, and a lot of darkness. His is just more disturbing.

Sometimes doctors just don't know and I can't imagine the frustration. Maybe finding other parents would help them with ways to cope.


"The toddler years were an absolute nightmare," said Isaac's mother, Carrie Brown. "He would just drop to the ground and smack his face on the table. He thought the fall was fun."

Isaac has dunked his hand in hot coffee without flinching. He once placed his palm on a working oven burner without shedding a tear.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/meet-toddler-feels-pain/story?id=20658484

 

[blue22]

Sometimes doctors just don't know and I can't imagine the frustration. Maybe finding other parents would help them with ways to cope.


"The toddler years were an absolute nightmare," said Isaac's mother, Carrie Brown. "He would just drop to the ground and smack his face on the table. He thought the fall was fun."

Isaac has dunked his hand in hot coffee without flinching. He once placed his palm on a working oven burner without shedding a tear.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/meet-toddler-feels-pain/story?id=20658484

Definitely feels pain, just doesn't care if others do.

 

[blue22]

I think there is a hugely, incredible, tremendous, massive difference between kids reading "scary stories"'written for kids, or watching a horror movie now and then and what apparently happened here and in other cases: Constant, quick bombardment with violent horror via the internet, and twitter feeds or whatever that actually encourage kids to murder.

We don't know they were bombarded constantly. Nothing has been said of the extent of their time spent reading.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

We don't know they were bombarded constantly. Nothing has been said of the extent of their time spent reading.

We know it was not normal curiosity because lots of kids are curious and look it up and don't commit murder over it so that pretty much right there kind of sets up the time and unlimited access they had.

 

[Spice]

We don't know they were bombarded constantly. Nothing has been said of the extent of their time spent reading.

I think the point is, no matter how much or how little exposure may have occurred, they became obsessive about it and deluded. Something blurred.

 

[song22]

I don't mind explaining him a little.

He simply can't understand that other people can feel anything, at all. He will kick a dog, because he is curious about what happens when he does. He doesn't approach it from a violent place. Like, he isn't interested in hurting the dog, hurting the dog is just what he has to do to fulfill the curiosity. (Does that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating.) We were at a local water park and a child started having a serious allergic reaction to something. All the kids were curious about what was happening, but he actually got a chair and treated it like a circus. He hopes for the very worst thing to happen to the child, because he thinks it's cool to watch. (We did not allow him to each like that, but it's certainly what he wanted.) He is very cunning, manipulative, and can lie with the best of them. To be truthful, he was different from birth. He would cry and cry and cry. For hours on end. Not just colic, but screaming raging crying fits until he had no voice. They did all kinds of medical tests, thinking he must actually be in pain. They never were able to find something wrong with him. When he was around 8 months, he started throwing violent fits if he did not get what he wanted. He would throw things at the windows and try to break them. He would grab hair and try to headbutt whoever was carrying him. One time I was picking him up, because we were at someones house who didn't have outlet covers. He was very curious about them and I was concerned he would stick his finger in. (Teething baby, wet fingers, outlet...not a good mix, lol.) He actually tried to stick his fingers into my eyeballs and bit me so hard on the cheek I still have a slight scar. He from a very young age gets mad at the person he hurts. He's mad that we are upset, because in his mind he is always in the right. (This can be a very common child mentality, but his is more extreme than even close to the norm.

His behavior is very dark, and very concerning. To his fathers credit, he has really tried to help for a long time. Psychologists of course can only do so much with a child this young. Most children grow out of their lack of empathy, is what they've said. While they are concerned, they can only assume his is young and will mature. Right now, it's just specialized therapy to help with empathy and other people's feelings. I try to be hopeful for him, but he seems to be a very violent criminal in the making. I hope all this therapy helps him.

My son was like this when he was very young. He would appear downright sadistic and conniving. He would sweetly invite someone in to give him a hug and then punch them right in the face. It was really frightening. But he was eventually diagnosed with Bipolar, which looks very different in a child than in an adult. He was first put on atypical antipsychotics and a mood stabilizer together and all of his violence and lack of empathy disappeared. He was not drugged or like a zombie. He was just healthy and happy and a normal kid. We wondered over the years if he might have outgrown his earlier problems and tried to get him off meds, but the same old behaviors would come back. We eventually took him to Mayo clinic for a second opinion and they confirmed the diagnosis. He has had breakthrough symptoms of violence at times and has had to be hospitalized. Presently he is in residential treatment.

He no longer has any empathy problems at all as long as he is well medicated--in fact he is known for being very kind to others and not at all ever sadistic like he was when he was a child. He will occasionally (very rarely) have a psychotic episode and then you see the loss of empathy. He gets a cold look in his eye and his voice will get "creepy" and then he becomes cruel. We deal with these episodes with emergency medication and coping skills--and we call the police and the hospital when we feel we need extra help. He is at residential treatment right now to spend his days practicing coping skills, so that he will know how to manage these episodes. I also found a two week CAIMP at Mayo for Bipolar kids that is all day coping skills training. Our insurance doesn't cover Residential treatment but medicaid does cover it, even though we make a very good salary. Our son is considered a "household of one" for medicaid purposes.

At first it felt so overwhelming and traumatizing and hopeless. Now it feels like we can imagine a healthy life for our son, as long as he can master these important skills to help him succeed--and as long as he stays on his medication. It's our job to make sure he gets every resource available. My heart goes out to you and I would encourage you not to give up hope. Though we haven't found all the answers for our son, things are much, much better than they were when he was little. For instance, back then, we used to be so scared of hospitalizing him--but now that we've done it several times, it's been very helpful.

 

[blue22]

We know it was not normal curiosity because lots of kids are curious and look it up and don't commit murder over it so that pretty much right there kind of sets up the time and unlimited access they had.

A lot of kids look at it for very frequently, and don't commit murder. Yes. Only these 2 have.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

A lot of kids look at it for very frequently, and don't commit murder. Yes. Only these 2 have.

Exactly so there is something different with these two. Something about their home life, or how they were brought up or influences that changed this.

 

[blue22]

Exactly so there is something different with these two. Something about their home life, or how they were brought up or influences that changed this.

Or possibly, they have a born mental illness. It does not HAVE to be home life. Look at how many people who do horrific things have great lives, and siblings who are very good citizens.

I guarantee you kids look at that stuff, that suffer great abuse. I guarantee you kids look at that who come from crappy and negligent homes. They don't murder. You can't automatically explain away things, by a home life you don't know about. I really think the investigation will reveal that these kids had normal lives at home. I don't think they suffered great negligence or abuse. I think the explanation is found in the girls, not outside of them.

That's just my personal opinion, of course.

 

[Gardenlady]

The culture at large IS hugely violent. The country DOES practically worship guns and military might. People are more concerned about seeing a breast in public than they are about seeing a gun. Wtf?! It is so warped to me.

Slenderman isn't gory or violent. He's creepy - in the way that ghost stories are creepy. I'm not going to say creepy stories led to this murder, but maybe a morbid fascination plus the added comfort level with violence that we grow up with in this country (plus the psych issues, etc)

We don't know any more details besides Slenderman yet, so I'm not going to guess at what else they read/watched. But will agree that culturally, the US is way too comfortable with violence. It permeates absolutely everything. And though this case does not involve guns, combining this worship and glorification of violence with easy access to weapons is a DISASTER.


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