GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[MyBelle]

I'm well aware of it, she recently turned 13, so I'm dealing with teenage attitude now. I've never allowed her to participate in chat rooms, not even Webkinz ones. She deleted her KiK account since I was monitoring it. Most of her texting is harmless teenage stuff, and I know what boys she's interested in.

I was a parent to three teenagers and it was the most challenging, exhausting period of my life. My colleagues used to joke that the assistant principal had my office number on speed dial. Good luck.

 

[blue22]

Is this directed towards the little girls who are in jail or towards all children?

I think she was talking about psychopaths. There was a little conversation about that. It was not about these girls specifically. It was about psychopaths in general, lack of empathy, etc. No one was trying to diagnose them or other children. Just a general discussion.

:seeya:

 

[blue22]

America doesn't have a singular, violent culture. Culture encompasses many things. I wasn't raised in a culture that accepts mutilation of a girl's genitals or a culture that accepts domestic violence to a wife. Some people were raised in such cultures. America consider both to be crimes.

JMO

As a whole, America is a violence centric nation. No one was speaking of specific crimes, rather the focus our nation gives to violence.

 

[MyBelle]

We DON'T KNOW if they weren't hanging out with others. We DON'T KNOW if they weren't behaving well.

We have a girl in a hospital, and we have two attempted murderers. We have their statements, which say nothing about being friends with others, or not being friends with others. We have a school that says they were normal, well behaved students. That's all we got, which does not prove they weren't socializing in normal ways.

Seriously, point me to the information you have on their overall behavior in society. I'd love to see it.

Statistics indicate the probability these girls have a mental health disorder is very high. It isn't normal behavior to play a game of hide and seek with the prey they are trying to murder.

JMO

Between 65 percent and 70 percent of the
2 million children and adolescents arrested
each year in the United States have a
mental health disorder.

http://www.ncsl.org/documents/cj/jjguidebook-mental.pdf

 

[Ausgirl]

Uh - that was me. I was speaking about website discussions in general that were saying some pretty disgusting things, and "put them down" was slang for "death penalty" - just to clarify all that.

As to how to spot a pedo - I did quite a bit of research on the police websites where they show you the chat they use to catch them. Looked at the kind of things they said and asked, how grooming on the net works.

I translated this into a set of things to look out for and made it a hard-n-fast rule to NEVER give your ASL (instant requests for asl is one of the red flags actually) to ANYone. Chat to friends and people you meet through your friends network. If you happen on strangers, watch for (list of suspect behaviours). If in ANY doubt come tell me about it. And NEVER give your ASL.

This worked really well. But only as I also spent a lot of time building trust and open communication. That's the key of it, really.

 

[MyBelle]

As a whole, America is a violence centric nation. No one was speaking of specific crimes, rather the focus our nation gives to violence.

And what focus is that? I think the focus is because the majority of Americans are worried about the safety of their children. We have kids being gunned down at school by their classmates. It's a tad bit concerning to some of us.

 

[Spice]

Is this directed towards the little girls who are in jail or towards all children?

This was a response to a poster about a conversation pertaining to Antisocial personality disorder and empathy. I wasn't talking about children or these girls at all.

 

[Spice]

Although the girls who stabbed the victim are twelve year old children. Are you saying the attackers should go unpunished? (I may be lost here.)

Not at all and I have said that repeatedly in many posts. What I was referring too in that post was another posters claim that a random comment about these girls on the internet stated that we should "put them down". (not on here) The poster said that she thought that the comment was meant in a compassionate way as in to show them compassion and put them out of their misery. I did not agree with her. That is what you are reading and responding too. It's one comment taken completely out of context of pages and pages of conversation.

 

[Ausgirl]

Not at all and I have said that repeatedly in many posts.

Perhaps you should put it in your sig?

 

[JLSChook]

I think people who kill, because they enjoy killing are evil. If these girls killed, because they wanted to know what it feels like...yes, I find that evil. Children or adult, age doesn't matter to me. Motive does.

Since we don't know that, I have no idea what to call them. I don't think it can be argued that they are clearly disturbed, no matter how you feel about the term "evil."

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I know I'm far behind but I have to comment on this word "evil". I think those who oppose this all encompassing word are afraid of it's truthfulness.

There ARE people who are born "evil". Period. There are plenty of studies out there proving this fact. It scares people that need to find a reason (or excuse) for anyone committing such horrendous acts of violence against others with little or no remorse.

It scares me too, but I'm a realist. Evil has nothing to do with "religion" in my world. It's a cold, hard fact.

ETA--I wanted to add that I'm not saying these girls are "evil" or aren't mentally ill. I was just generalizing like everyone else.

 

[iluvmua]

Anyone remember Lionel Tate? He was 12 when he body slammed a 6 year old girl killing her. he is now serving life without parole.

The same thing should happen to these 12 year olds. put them in prison for life

I'm glad they are being tried as adults.

 

[MyBelle]

My niece's school implemented tablets and smartphones at their school. They were allowed to use them. The teachers have called for this to be modifief. The kids were getting around the securities in place, and the teachers were finding it impossible to monitor usage. They are reviewing this program for next year.

Look at teens and their social networking sites. Look how many of their posts happen during the day at school. I agree that you can take a child's phone away. However, you can't take their friend's phone away. You can't take their friend's computer away. You can't sweep every house and activity they go to. You can't take away the devices at school. Every time a child is at someone's house or anywhere in public without you, there is the potential to spend time on the internet.

Good heavens, it does reach a point where a child does earn your trust but the girls in this case were 12 years old. They didn't appear to have any boundaries if they were doing things like plotting murders.

JMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Anyone remember Lionel Tate? He was 12 when he body slammed a 6 year old girl killing her. he is now serving life without parole.

The same thing should happen to these 12 year olds. put them in prison for life

I'm glad they are being tried as adults.

I don't think that is right. Not for any 12 yr old. I think they should be charged and held accountable, and go to jail, But I don't think they should be charged and tried as adults.

 

[nightwatch]

Well we know they did not spend their days in the sunshine playing well with others..

That was funny. Needed a smile about now. . Jmo moo

Eta assume you were speaking figuratively.

ciao

 

[Spice]

America doesn't have a singular, violent culture. Culture encompasses many things. I wasn't raised in a culture that accepts mutilation of a girl's genitals or a culture that accepts domestic violence to a wife. Some people were raised in such cultures. America consider both to be crimes.

JMO

There are about a million academic papers written about America's violent culture, dating back to its inception. In fact I linked one here by Dr. Giroux. I'm not making it up, its been heavily studied, researched and commented on.

America is violent and glorifies violence. It's about as American as apple pie. Just turn on the news. These daily violent and horrific events are not coming out of nowhere. And nowhere did I say that other countries are not violent. I am talking about America.

I mean, our Nation's favorite sport is Football, its' so violent it gives the players brain damage.

it is okay to criticize your country. It's okay to recognize its dark side.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Anyone remember Lionel Tate? He was 12 when he body slammed a 6 year old girl killing her. he is now serving life without parole.

The same thing should happen to these 12 year olds. put them in prison for life

I'm glad they are being tried as adults.

Actually he is not. He was let out when the judge threw out the conviction and then the prosecutor did not retry but gave the same deal they had offered before 2nd degree. 3 years.

The problem is that it did not end there for him and he is back in prison on other charges. But I don't believe that the prosecutor in his case wanted him to get LWP, They even asked the judge for leniency and the judge then said that they should not have charged him with 1st degree then.

I can have to wonder if Lionel Tate was sent to a place where he got help and therapy and meds, even what his life would have turned out to be.

http://antonia-monacelli.hubpages.com/hub/Murderous-Children-Lionel-Tate

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/02/national/02tate.html?_r=0

 

[MyBelle]

Anyone remember Lionel Tate? He was 12 when he body slammed a 6 year old girl killing her. he is now serving life without parole.

The same thing should happen to these 12 year olds. put them in prison for life

I'm glad they are being tried as adults.

I think in Wisconsin the Judge can put a juvenile away for equivalent of life if the Judge feels the juvenile is mentally incompetent. Then every few years, it's reviewed but they don't just spring them loose because they reach a certain age.

JMO

 

[Ausgirl]

So, how do you "spot a pedo" online??? Do tell...

I hope that wasn't sarcasm. I took it as a genuine request, anyway. Answer given a page back.

My research showed me that there's a few almost universal things pedos say online. I'm not sure if I still have the file, but if you're interested, I can try to dig it up. Or you can read sites like Perverted Justice for yourself. It's pretty heavy going though.

 

[Spice]

There ARE people who are born "evil". Period. There are plenty of studies out there proving this fact..

There are? Can you please share them and cite them? I'm interested in reading these academic studies. I'm not being facetious.

 

[JLSChook]

Originally Posted by pjclover
Snipped this, respectfully.

Look, here's the issue with the word evil. In your mind, you seem to have assigned it a very simplistic meaning. Not putting words into your mouth here, just paraphrasing what you said. From my standpoint, it's something immensely complex and layered.

Mental illness is a real, rather common, malfunction of an area of the brain. There's lots of causes and lots of types, but the bottom line is that it's an actual, medical condition. Just like if someone lost part of the function of their liver, for example. It might have happened because of physical trauma to the liver, might be because of a virus or disease, might be genetic, or it might just be the way the liver was formed in utero. Mental illness is the same, from what I understand of it. It can be caused by a number of factors - biological like pre-natal damage, genetics, even a virus that's affected part of the brain, substance abuse. But then there is also this other layer of psychological and environmental causes.

I'm definitely not a person who is attempting in any way to deny or downplay the prevalence or importance of having a legitimate mental illness. I have, however, mentioned that I was concerned that because many diagnoses of mental illness are made on the basis of empirical evidence, they are somewhat subjective. If something is wrong with a liver, there are blood tests and scans and other tests to rule out some causes and confirm others. There are such tests available for some types of MI as well, but they are not commonly used outside of research studies for most diagnoses, to my knowledge.

I'm not a mental health professional, although I have some training in recognizing symptoms and experience with a variety of therapy options and behavior modifications as a result of my line of work. So, some of the above might be incorrect or off a bit, I'm open to correction if so.

Now - all of this is to say that I don't think that EVERYONE who kills has a mental illness. For sure, our prisons are rampant with people who do have either diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illnesses, and the link between the two is clear. No denying that. But, just as not everyone with a mental illness becomes a murderer (not even close), not everyone who is a murderer has a mental illness.

That's where some of us may differ. Some people think that anyone who kills clearly has something wrong (physically, chemically, etc.) with their brain that made them kill. I believe that's a bifurcation fallacy, because not killing is a societal norm, not an innate human function. In fact, the imbalance of power hypothesis of evolution states that we as humans are predispositioned for warfare. Societal factors build the resistance.

I'm getting way off topic here, so let me leave you with this question - do you believe that everyone who kills has a mental illness?

I've never seen anything that proves it to be so. If a study came out today that said every person who took a life has a diagnosed mental illness, then okay. I'd have to change my mind. I've been wrong lots of times and I don't see that stopping any time soon.

Because I don't believe all murders are mentally ill, I have to recognize that sometimes, people who have no brain-function related reason to kill choose to do so. Evil is the most recognized word that our language has for those people, in my opinion. We could call them something else, something that doesn't seem so trite, played out, or religious. I just don't know what that something else would be, you know? Societal norm breakers?

Rather than being simplistic, I think it's more complicated to look at someone without a mental illness and figure out what caused them to kill.

Just my way of looking at it. There's a possibility that both these girls have a mental illness. But, there's also a possibility they don't.

I'm still about 18 pages behind but I couldn't pass this one by without saying how great this post is. You said it so much better than I could. Great post!