GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #2

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  • #341
Very interesting theory.

Thanks - there are just so many theories. This is just such a strange situation. The thing I cannot understand is that these two girls simply do not fit the "profile" of other cases.

- background of habitual violence? Apparently not
- crime history? No
- acting out at school? No
- victims of abuse? Apparently not
- previous antisocial behavior? Apparently not

I'm not sure that they really knew each other prior to 6th Grade - they seem to have attended different elementary schools. (MG and PL were at the same one). So they probably became "bus friends". It's not clear if they hung out together at school.

AW and MG seem to have had a common interest that PL does not have (that can be seen), the interest in the horror genre and CreepyPasta. Someone claiming to be MG teases PL via her Google+ account for being "mainstream" about PL's liking of Katy Perry. It's not had to imagine developing tension between PL and MG as the latter becomes obsessed with Slender Man - especially if she ever discussed with MG the notion of killing someone to become a proxy. I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that this did happen, and it made PL very uncomfortable, to the point of her telling MG to knock it off or else... and at some point MG sees this as a choice to be made: PL or Slender Man.

AW - as I said in an earlier post - was doubtless happy to have a friend with a similar interest - Slender Man. It may be that this was, however, the ONLY shared interest they had, and thus formed the underpinning of a friendship that was particularly important to AW.

In the criminal complaint AW, mentions the need to kill someone to become a proxy BEFORE she discusses the plan that MG brings to her: that they should become proxies by killing PL. I think its reasonable to say that AW and MG had discussed this PRIOR to planning to kill anyone. There is no evidence that suggests that any plan to kill anyone specific existed before MG makes the suggestion and names PL. Now the "plan" is born.

They discussed their plan on the bus (an unnecessary risk) using code words for safety. To me, this suggests a compelling (perhaps even addictive) thrill in their conspiracy due to its taboo nature. It also demonstrates they knew that what they were discussing was "wrong". It gave them an exclusive bond that COULD NOT be shared... although I think PL - who had known MG for years - knew something was going on. I think this bond was super-important for AW, who allegedly came up with so many plans that MG could not keep up with them.

Up to this point, nothing really untoward has happened: they've got a macabre secret "plan" to kill PL, but at the same time don't have any apparent enmity with PL (who after all did agree to come to the slumber party). What the plan ACTUALLY means to each girl is probably not the same. To AW its about acceptance and friendship. In the shot time they'd known each other, AW had even given MG the pet name "Kitty", which I imagine was one that only she used (MG kind of says this in the complaint). For MG, the goal is all about Slender Man. But she is possibly psychopathic AND also mentally ill. Without the latter, perhaps the psychopathy would not have become obvious. Most psychopaths are perfectly functional, but become dangerous if their environment provides that stimulus.

I don't know that AW thought the attack would ever actually happen. If she had, her duty would have been to do something about it, but this would have almost certainly been the end of her friendship with MG. So she avoided thinking about it until it was too late - and once PL was aware that they had a knife and she was in danger, AW must have known that even if they hadn't stabbed her, PL would have certainly reported what they had done.

One can only assume that AW must have been incredibly lonely and desperate for close companionship to have been a part of this. No doubt this and her home circumstances will feature large in her defense trying to explain how an intelligent and "normal" girl could have gone so far astray.
 
  • #342
WHY would you do that? I just - the last thing I could ever sit down and decide to do would be "hey, let's create a demon!" But I am a scaredy cat, and have dealt with too much creepy things at my own home. I hope you blessed your house after that! Clean that negative energy up. Scary, scary.

I thought I had heard of just about everything but the word "tulpa" is new to me! People could create them for a variety of reasons. First reason would be to see if they can. Others might be as protection, or as a sex partner (which is apparently considered nearly like child abuse in the tulpa world...lol), or apparently as companionship. I would guess if someone were into magical rituals they might be able to use a tulpa in that capacity too.

It is actually a fascinating topic, but like you I would never do it, my psyche can be far to dark so I would never want my subconscious making something like that (same reason I never wanted to do hallucinogens). It is sort of an individualized expression of what I have always thought the belief in concepts and deities is, if enough people put energy into believing in it then it has a power of its own.
 
  • #343
People could create them for a variety of reasons. First reason would be to see if they can.

So is this how belief in any entity works, including Gods, demons and so on? Someone comes up with a compelling story of an entity, attracts a number of believers, whose believe gives that entity life?

If so its a bit silly people saying "Slender Man can't be real - he was invented in 2009!" because it doesn't matter when, just that people believe. With the pervasive reach of the Internet it has become so easy to reach potential believers. In this case kids.

Oh boy - this will be an interesting case to try. If another, more believable motive cannot be found, the trial then becomes about the "existence" of Slender Man, and demonstrating that the girls truly did believe. Imagine that!

Prosecution: "The defendants cannot believe in Slender Man, he isn't real."

Defense: "So what beliefs are permitted to be 'real' and 'not real'? Is it insane to believe in one intangible entity but sane to believe in another?"

So absent another motive, its either sane to believe in Slender Man and they are "guilty", or its insane to believe in Slender Man so they are "not guilty byway of mental disease or defect". :thinking:
 
  • #344
ICS - again, the thought you've put into this is wonderful to read, and again we concur. It's pretty plain to me that AW was very likely the 'motivator' in this crime. But yep, I think they pushed each other through the actual attempt at killing. If one had balked and run home, the other would have too, I am sure -- but neither did so.

I continue to think that Slenderman was a strawman for the real reason behind the attempt, consciously or otherwise. I think AW's need for a friend, someone close and all 'hers' was at the root of it. I also think MG might have been a bit malleable, a bit inclined to be a follower, someone AW could exert control over. But that's just speculation at this point.
 
  • #345
I also think MG might have been a bit malleable, a bit inclined to be a follower, someone AW could exert control over. But that's just speculation at this point.

AW did seem to be the planner, while MG was the "mysterious one" with the obsession. AWs YouTube likes show an interest with CreepyPasta/Slender Man, but not obsessive behavior like the dreams, seeing Slender Man, aloofness and the drawing of "spooky figures" as variously reported.

Its also interesting that MG said: "I'm not going to [stab PL] until you tell me to." Then there was the "go crazy, go ballistic" exhortation from AW, and finally "Kitty, now". I wonder if she called MG "Kitty" whenever she wanted her to do something?

Peculiar to this case is that the attackers stopped attacking the victim when she clearly wasn't dead.. Looking at other cases of premeditated kid-on-kid violence, the perpetrators killed and usually concealed their victims (e.g. Elizabeth Olten, Skylar Neese). Perhaps it was deemed unnecessary because they would be beyond capture at Slender Man's mansion, or because the planner (AW) never thought the murder would happen.

Also, taking away the murder aspect - both girls were also planning to run away from home forever. It seems strange that with this in mind (let alone the murder) there would have been no sign of stress detected. Again, maybe AW never thought it would happen, and MG was delusional.

My guess is that there was only so long that the "plan" could cement their friendship before they admitted it wasn't a real plan, or they acted on it. Perhaps admitting that it wasn't a real (or advisable) plan was something AW couldn't bring herself to do for fear of losing her friend.

I think that key to the case will be how the idea of selecting PL arose, and who made the selection.
 
  • #346
So is this how belief in any entity works, including Gods, demons and so on? Someone comes up with a compelling story of an entity, attracts a number of believers, whose believe gives that entity life?
If so its a bit silly people saying "Slender Man can't be real - he was invented in 2009!" because it doesn't matter when, just that people believe. With the pervasive reach of the Internet it has become so easy to reach potential believers. In this case kids.
Oh boy - this will be an interesting case to try. If another, more believable motive cannot be found, the trial then becomes about the "existence" of Slender Man, and demonstrating that the girls truly did believe. Imagine that!
Prosecution: "The defendants cannot believe in Slender Man, he isn't real."
Defense: "So what beliefs are permitted to be 'real' and 'not real'? Is it insane to believe in one intangible entity but sane to believe in another?"
So absent another motive,
its either sane to believe in Slender Man and they are "guilty", or its insane to believe in Slender Man so they are "not guilty byway of mental disease or defect". :thinking:
. BBM SBM.



Is def's belief in S'man (or other intangible entity)
--- a "motive" which the state does not need to offer or prove? or
--- a symptom of "mental disease or defect" necessary for jury to find her not guilty/MDD?
 
  • #347
Is def's belief in S'man (or other intangible entity)
--- a "motive" which the state does not need to offer or prove? or
--- a symptom of "mental disease or defect" necessary for jury to find her not guilty/MDD?

At the end of the day, they admitted to planning and attempting to kill PL. Beyond that:

- one or both are either sane or insane
- one or both are psychopaths
- third-party involvement affected their judgment

Interestingly, AW's attorney has requested disclosure of MG's competency report, making me wonder if he is going to go for it "all being MG's doing" and AW didn't think she was serious about their "plan".

The thing that sticks out,however, is that they just "don't fit the profile" of others kids that have committed appalling acts of violence. Their home, school and social lives have not turned up any of the "usual suspects" such as a history of acting out, violence or other crime, abuse, mental illness etc. And that is the terrifying aspect of this case - absent a definite motive, could those previously "good kids" have been my "good kids", or your "good kids"?
 
  • #348
  • #349
At the end of the day, they admitted to planning and attempting to kill PL. Beyond that:

- one or both are either sane or insane
- one or both are psychopaths
- third-party involvement affected their judgment

Interestingly, AW's attorney has requested disclosure of MG's competency report, making me wonder if he is going to go for it "all being MG's doing" and AW didn't think she was serious about their "plan".

The thing that sticks out,however, is that they just "don't fit the profile" of others kids that have committed appalling acts of violence. Their home, school and social lives have not turned up any of the "usual suspects" such as a history of acting out, violence or other crime, abuse, mental illness etc. And that is the terrifying aspect of this case - absent a definite motive, could those previously "good kids" have been my "good kids", or your "good kids"?

BBM. My vote goes with psychopath. I think the slenderman story is a bunch of nonsense they concocted if they got caught so that they'd be cut slack because of their ages. This case is shockingly similar to the murder of Skylar Neese. Her best friends concocted their plan in science class, drove to a forest across the state line, stabbed her and then pretended to be devastated for months because she was "missing." I think she'd still be missing if one of her killers had not ended up in a mental ward and confessed and showed authorities where to find her body. They were tried as adults and are right where they need to be.

No way should these girls be treated as juveniles in this case. They premeditated a murder. That is an adult crime and they should be prosecuted as adults.

JMO
 
  • #350
  • #351
  • #352
BBM. My vote goes with psychopath. I think the slenderman story is a bunch of nonsense they concocted if they got caught so that they'd be cut slack because of their ages. This case is shockingly similar to the murder of Skylar Neese. Her best friends concocted their plan in science class, drove to a forest across the state line, stabbed her and then pretended to be devastated for months because she was "missing." I think she'd still be missing if one of her killers had not ended up in a mental ward and confessed and showed authorities where to find her body. They were tried as adults and are right where they need to be.

No way should these girls be treated as juveniles in this case. They premeditated a murder. That is an adult crime and they should be prosecuted as adults.

JMO

It does sound very similar... except for one thing. Regardless of their motive, they did not take the trouble to hide their tracks, as did Shoaf and Eddy. For example:

- making sure the victim is actually dead
- hiding the body of the victim
- getting rid of the murder weapon and traces of blood
- denying involvement

They did none of these things. Instead, they kept the knife and bloodstained clothes and started their journey. I think they would have figured out what should have happened after the event:

- at some point, a search would have been initiated. This may not have been for a couple of hours as they had gone to play in the park
- the body of PL would have been found
- police all over the state and neighboring states would be on the lookout for AW and MG
- in all likelihood, it would have been assumed that they had been abducted by the killer, not that they were the killers

If it weren't for this - and the fact that they were running away and had packed accordingly - I could go with the Skylar Neese theory. But it seems like they believed that once they had done the deed, the "prophesy" would be fulfilled, and they would be able to go to Slender Man's mansion unimpeded.

Ultimately, we have a missing piece to this story: the testimony of PL, which may never become public. I maintain that the attack itself was NOT a complete surprise to PL. Perhaps PL believed MG and she would be conspiring in a trick to freak AW out. (Hence "I trusted you!" when she realized the intent really was to stab her).

I think PL knew that something was wrong with MG and she had become frightened of her behavior and beliefs. I'd bet PL advised MG to ditch the Slender Man stuff - and perhaps even presented her with an ultimatum. This attack on MG's obsession together with the partnership of AW sealed PL's fate. [Ooh spooky - there was a big crash of thunder here when I finished typing that last sentence!]
 
  • #353
It does sound very similar... except for one thing. Regardless of their motive, they did not take the trouble to hide their tracks, as did Shoaf and Eddy. For example:

- making sure the victim is actually dead
- hiding the body of the victim
- getting rid of the murder weapon and traces of blood
- denying involvement

They did none of these things. Instead, they kept the knife and bloodstained clothes and started their journey. I think they would have figured out what should have happened after the event:

- at some point, a search would have been initiated. This may not have been for a couple of hours as they had gone to play in the park
- the body of PL would have been found
- police all over the state and neighboring states would be on the lookout for AW and MG
- in all likelihood, it would have been assumed that they had been abducted by the killer, not that they were the killers

If it weren't for this - and the fact that they were running away and had packed accordingly - I could go with the Skylar Neese theory. But it seems like they believed that once they had done the deed, the "prophesy" would be fulfilled, and they would be able to go to Slender Man's mansion unimpeded.

Ultimately, we have a missing piece to this story: the testimony of PL, which may never become public. I maintain that the attack itself was NOT a complete surprise to PL. Perhaps PL believed MG and she would be conspiring in a trick to freak AW out. (Hence "I trusted you!" when she realized the intent really was to stab her).

I think PL knew that something was wrong with MG and she had become frightened of her behavior and beliefs. I'd bet PL advised MG to ditch the Slender Man stuff - and perhaps even presented her with an ultimatum. This attack on MG's obsession together with the partnership of AW sealed PL's fate. [Ooh spooky - there was a big crash of thunder here when I finished typing that last sentence!]

I can't speculate about motivations nor does it matter, imo. I don't know that Shoaf and Eddy made sure their victim was dead or buried her body. Both of these stabbings were premeditated crimes and the perpetrators should be charged as adults. The Slenderman stuff is not an excuse and should have nothing to do with whether they are charged as adults. It is nothing short of a miracle that their victim survived but it still is a horrific crime.

JMO

JMO
 
  • #354
I can't speculate about motivations nor does it matter, imo. I don't know that Shoaf and Eddy made sure their victim was dead or buried her body. Both of these stabbings were premeditated crimes and the perpetrators should be charged as adults. The Slenderman stuff is not an excuse and should have nothing to do with whether they are charged as adults. It is nothing short of a miracle that their victim survived but it still is a horrific crime.

While I understand that this case evokes strong feelings, all we know is:

- three girls went out to play
- one girl was hospitalized after being stabbed
- the other two allegedly admitted to doing the stabbing

Slender Man is relevant if the suspects' beliefs and actions were a consequence of mental illness. Whether they are mentally ill or not, they'll be away for a long time.

In my humble opinion, and with respect to those with differing opinions, charging a child as an adult is an approach that seeks to show "toughness on crime", but does nothing to tackle the underlying problem.

All of our definitions of "child" are based on age, not the actions of that child. The suspects haven't even entered a plea yet, but their current lives and those of their parents - who otherwise would not have been named - are effectively ruined. That's hardly "innocent until proven guilty". Neither we nor any other public forum has the facts to make that determination.
 
  • #355
I could do without the headline. The blaming it on slenderman is something the defendants are doing. I think it is an insult to the victim.

JMO

Splitting hairs a bit here... even the title for this thread, then comes into debate. It was a selfless thing to do for a little girl that is a mess. End of story.
 
  • #356
While I understand that this case evokes strong feelings, all we know is:

- three girls went out to play
- one girl was hospitalized after being stabbed
- the other two allegedly admitted to doing the stabbing

Slender Man is relevant if the suspects' beliefs and actions were a consequence of mental illness. Whether they are mentally ill or not, they'll be away for a long time.

In my humble opinion, and with respect to those with differing opinions, charging a child as an adult is an approach that seeks to show "toughness on crime", but does nothing to tackle the underlying problem.

All of our definitions of "child" are based on age, not the actions of that child. The suspects haven't even entered a plea yet, but their current lives and those of their parents - who otherwise would not have been named - are effectively ruined. That's hardly "innocent until proven guilty". Neither we nor any other public forum has the facts to make that determination.

BBM. My opinion is based only on their actions, not their ages. Mental illness may very well be a contributing element but at this point that is unknown. If it does prove to be a factor, I believe the Judge will decide to keep it in adult court to ensure a longer stay in the system. I don't believe the goal is to show toughness on crime, I believe the goal is to best protect the public and to best ensure the offenders do not re-offend. I doubt any mental health treatment either defendant receives now or might receive in the future in the correctional system is going to be based on whether they are charged as an adult or a juvenile.

JMO.
 
  • #357
BBM. My opinion is based only on their actions, not their ages. Mental illness may very well be a contributing element but at this point that is unknown. If it does prove to be a factor, I believe the Judge will decide to keep it in adult court to ensure a longer stay in the system. I don't believe the goal is to show toughness on crime, I believe the goal is to best protect the public and to best ensure the offenders do not re-offend. I doubt any mental health treatment either defendant receives now or might receive in the future in the correctional system is going to be based on whether they are charged as an adult or a juvenile.

JMO.

It may vary by state, but in my state, trying this case as a juvenile would give the judge more flexibility in getting the defendant needed mental health treatment. Trying the case in the the adult system would significantly limit the judge's options. Any Wisconsin lawyers able to give us insight into this?
 
  • #358
Splitting hairs a bit here... even the title for this thread, then comes into debate. It was a selfless thing to do for a little girl that is a mess. End of story.

I may have missed it in the media but I'm not aware that the victim was a big fan of slenderman. The title of the thread is about what her attackers have claimed, not what the victim believed. I think the use of it as a headline about compassionate acts of kindness extended to the victim somewhat trivializes the crime. That's just my opinion.
 
  • #359
I don' know, we call it the slenderman case, they call her the "slenderman" victim... the names are no longer being used in media. What else are you going to call her?
 
  • #360
It was a nice thing to do and if the parents didn't want it in the media they would not have released it. The fact that they did is telling
 
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