GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[southcitymom]

SCM, do you feel that insulin is considered "western medicine"? Non-western medicine includes herbs, acupuncture, and natural stuff right? Since insulin is grown with bacteria I am wondering where you stand on that.

I don't have a category for insulin. I've never even thought about it. I am - in general - a medical moron and only know what I have to. If a doctor told me I needed to take insulin or suffer severe consequences, I surely would.

I don't have strong opinions on Western medicine or Easten medicine or spiritual medicine or any of that - except my strong opinion that we should have choices in how we treat ourselves and our family for health issues.

I just keep saying "Western medicine" because I can perceive a case like this coming to charges if a parent chose to treat their child with herbs, acupuncture, homeopathy - and I believe treating with those non-Western options is also a choice parents should have.

 

[scarpetta]

SCM, That makes sense. I asked because there are people who don't believe what these parents believe at all and also think that "western medicine" is bad vs. other methods for treating illnesses.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM, That makes sense. I asked because there are people who don't believe what these parents believe at all and also think that "western medicine" is bad vs. other methods for treating illnesses.

Yes - I hear you. I know people like that (my sister is fairly suspicious of Western medicine). I am not one of them and didn't mean to infer that. Thank you for the clarifying question!

 

[pedinurse]

I think that God gave us the knowledge and physicians / medical providers He has for a reason... to help make us healthier. I think that prayer helps in more ways that we can even imagine. I think it can help increase healing and decrease pain... there are so many reasons that so many religious people go into medicine. My facility was started by a group of nuns that came from overseas and saw that my mining town needed a facility for sick miners far from home.

I also agree with you that in the end, God's will is done... however, there was no way this child could survive without medical intervention. God only helps those who help themselves. I truely believe that he has given us all these medical marvels for a reason... he gave us brains for a reason too! She never had a chance with parents like that.

 

[southcitymom]

I think that God gave us the knowledge and physicians / medical providers He has for a reason.....

Maybe so - but remember that He also gave us (once upon a time) medical providers/physicians who cured diseases by having leeches suck blood out of sick people and who thought it was a fine idea for pregnant women to take thalidomide.

And, He also gave us prayer.

And, on days when He irritates me, I remind myself that He gave us Paris Hilton, beets and patchouli. It seems we still have to do some discriminating when it comes to choosing His wonders! There's that choice word again. I can't escape it when I post about this case.

 

[scarpetta]

Maybe so - but remember that He also gave us (once upon a time) medical providers/physicians who cured diseases by having leeches suck blood out of sick people and who thought it was a fine idea for pregnant women to take thalidomide.

And, He also gave us prayer.

And, on days when He irritates me, I remind myself that He gave us Paris Hilton, beets and patchouli. It seems we still have to do some discriminating when it comes to choosing His wonders! There's that choice word again. I can't escape it when I post about this case.

I like beets! Can't we agree on ANYTHING? :crazy:

 

[Truly]

So you think prayer is not as powerful as western medicine - it's an okay thing to do in conjunction with "real" action, but it's not something we should rely on. I can respect that you feel this way, but it's not the way I feel.

I don't ever see myself thinking that relying on prayer to heal the sick is a second-hand option that a person could go to jail for choosing.

By the way - if I saw someone injured in the road, I would take them to the hospital and pray for them. For me, both actions would be equally as important and helpful.

But what if I only took them to the hospital and then chose not to pray for them? Would it be fair if the police charged me with negligence (and possible murder if the person died) if I only took this person to the hospital but then decided not to pray for them? No - of course it wouldn't. So why is it fair that I could be charged if I only prayed for them and didn't take them to the hospital? The only answer to that is this - the person who charges me feels like prayer for healing is not a valid helpful response to a medical emergency.

I understand others feel like prayer is "doing nothing." But I don't. I understand that others only have "real" faith in what can be accomplished down here in front of their eyes with man's hands. But that does not describe me.

scm, nobody is knocking prayer. But the facts here are that anyone with a mimimal degree of awareness would have recognized that the child was very sick. A parent who was not enveloped in their own little self would have tried everything in their power to keep their child alive. They did not try homeopathic or any other option. If they had sought out any kind of medical help, their daughter would be alive.

How do you feel about prayer as the only option for a sick child now that you have seen it fail in such a tragic manner? If you only pray for your child instead of trying all available options, and you come to find that the child could have been easily saved if not for your refusal to seek help, how would you feel if this was your child?

Why is it fair that you could be charged if you only prayed for them and did not take them to a hospital, you ask?

Because the hospital would have saved her life, and the prayer only gave the child an agonizing month of painful drawn-out death.

Any parent who whines about why their own little life is unfair after they refused to save the life of their own child does not deserve my sympathy.

I imagine that God might feel the same way. In my own humble opinion, of course...

 

[Vegas Bride]

Has it been posted on here yet that the other children have now been taken out of the home and have been placed with other relatives while the investigation is going on? I read an article earlier today on it but can't recall which news it was on.

About the comment about leeches being used in the past, actually they are still in use today, they have a very beneficial use as it turns out so all wasn't bad after all

VB

 

[Truly]

But did they really believe God would cure her? If they did, then why did the father begin the CPR? Why not keep leaving it in God's hands, believing prayer was all that was needed?

VB

VB, I would like to commend you for bringing up some excellent points in this thread. Very good questions.

I had heard that the other children had a medical checkup. I am relieved to hear that they are away from the parents at this point in time. If the parents are not insane, they must surely be overcome with grief.

 

[sherri79]

Has it been posted on here yet that the other children have now been taken out of the home and have been placed with other relatives while the investigation is going on? I read an article earlier today on it but can't recall which news it was on.

About the comment about leeches being used in the past, actually they are still in use today, they have a very beneficial use as it turns out so all wasn't bad after all

VB

yes it was posted and lol @ the leeches part.

 

[T-Rex]

This is an interesting counterpoint to the Nicholas Francisco thread. In that case the wife (the "point" person for making things happen) believes in leaving things in God's hands, and many posters support her.

SCM, I'm totally interested in your take, because you and I have similar politics, and sometimes it's possible to be so far left-wing, you're right-wing!

 

[Pandora]

While I was searching for a news story about the most recent death here, I found a few others. A teacher with whom I was interviewing last month just left the school run by Faith Tabernacle when a student died of a tooth abcess. Here are the other stories about the church I found:
Parents here got jail time for their daughter's death from diabetes. (Their son also died from an ear infection.) http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010501nixon6.asp
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,986276,00.html?promoid=googlep
Five children die from measles:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...935A25751C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

 

[southcitymom]

I like beets! Can't we agree on ANYTHING? :crazy:

LOL - perhaps we can agree that we give each other "good debate" and lots to think about!:blowkiss:

 

[southcitymom]

Has it been posted on here yet that the other children have now been taken out of the home and have been placed with other relatives while the investigation is going on? I read an article earlier today on it but can't recall which news it was on.

About the comment about leeches being used in the past, actually they are still in use today, they have a very beneficial use as it turns out so all wasn't bad after all

VB

I do recall reading something about Madonna using leeches! I believe one of the posted article smtnioned that the other children have been removed while the investigation is underway.

 

[southcitymom]

This is an interesting counterpoint to the Nicholas Francisco thread. In that case the wife (the "point" person for making things happen) believes in leaving things in God's hands, and many posters support her.

SCM, I'm totally interested in your take, because you and I have similar politics, and sometimes it's possible to be so far left-wing, you're right-wing!

Wow TRex - I will have to go check out that thread and see where the differences may lie. Perhaps Nicholas is an adult. People can get very emotional over a child dying and not always be able to fully consider some of the larger implications - and I surely understand that.

 

[southcitymom]

While I was searching for a news story about the most recent death here, I found a few others. A teacher with whom I was interviewing last month just left the school run by Faith Tabernacle when a student died of a tooth abcess. Here are the other stories about the church I found:
Parents here got jail time for their daughter's death from diabetes. (Their son also died from an ear infection.) http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010501nixon6.asp
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,986276,00.html?promoid=googlep
Five children die from measles:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...935A25751C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

Thanks for posting these terrific links, Pandora.

It does seem we can't quite figure out what we think of all this. For example, 5 children died of measles, but it is not a requirement for you to vaccinate your children - even in more "mainstream" society.

Again - in the stories above - I fall on the side of allowing these people to practice their belief that God heals directly.

 

[Annie]

If the parents get sick they have a choice of whether to go to a doctor or just use prayer. A child doesn't have this choice. They are completely dependent on the parents. I don't think they have the right to withhold treatment from a dying child, when help is so readily available. I pray every day several times, but I will not quit taking my diabetes medicines. I know what it would mean. I hope these parents are charged for letting this child die without getting help for her. She deserved better.

 

[Taximom]

Toddler's death not the first for local faith healing church
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_033008_news_faith_healing.1742971c.html
Ten years ago, several children from the same church died from untreated medical conditions like diabetes.

Here's what the medical examiner told KGW reporter Pat Doris back in 1998: "It's an awful way to die, little Bo Phillips is not the only one. We've had 3 cases in the past 9 months out here. Some have been lingering, horrible, painful deaths, all of them unnecessary deaths", said Larry Lewman, a former state medical examiner.

Clackamas County prosecutors never did charge those parents because state law allowed religious exemptions from state child abuse and homicide laws.

The controversy led Oregon senator Peter Courtney and others to get rid of those religious exemptions. (more at link)

 

[joe jones]

Thanks for posting these terrific links, Pandora.

It does seem we can't quite figure out what we think of all this. For example, 5 children died of measles, but it is not a requirement for you to vaccinate your children - even in more "mainstream" society.

Again - in the stories above - I fall on the side of allowing these people to practice their belief that God heals directly.

may I ask if you feel it would be ok to pray and not get help for a child for example who was in a car wreck and has broken legs/arms, it's head split open and is bleeding to death, whilst screaming for help, would you think it is ok for the parents to pick up this child take it home and pray over it as it screams and begs for help,

 

[southcitymom]

may I ask if you feel it would be ok to pray and not get help for a child for example who was in a car wreck and has broken legs/arms, it's head split open and is bleeding to death, whilst screaming for help, would you think it is ok for the parents to pick up this child take it home and pray over it as it screams and begs for help,

First of all, I do not consider praying not getting help.

I'm a little unclear on some things in your hypothetical. When the child in your scenario is screaming for help, what does help mean to that child? What does help mean to that child's family? Has the child been raised in a family where help is considered praying to God for intervention and healing? If so, would the child even think to scream "take me to a doctor?" Does the child even know what doctors do?

If the child in your scenario is taken home for prayer, is the child provided comfort for pain relief? What are the family's beliefs regarding that?

The girl in the case at issue was 11 years old. I do not know anything about her state of mind or her perceptions of what was happening to/for her. I do not know if she asked for medical intervention or if she felt like she was getting better. I do not know if she was in extreme pain. I'm sure the family members closest to her have those answers.