GUILTY WI - Kara Neumann, 11, dies as parents rely on faith healing, Weston, 23 March 2008

[KOOL LOOK]

KOOL LOOK, (((HUGS)))
In one of your above post you said-


This family WOULD NOT be suffering in darkness if they would have gotten medical help for their daughter.
They neglected her by when they didn't get her help.
Childhood diabetes is a treatable disease!

Philamena, we just don't know that. We just don't really without a shadow of a doubt know that. Then to go further, medical treatment may have prolonged life, to what degree, and to what length, we don't know.

We can go by statistics, but not everyone responds to insulin. Not everyone follows the medical journals to a tee. We do have standardized care, and for the most part, it is awesome and reliable. Then there's times when there is no explanation as to an un-expected out of season death.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

KL, I think it is a fair question to ask you why you are upset to begin with if you have avoided the actual facts of this case so far? That would be like driving by someone's house and screaming "A POX ON YOUR HOUSE YOU RAT BAST@RDS!" and never bothering to find out if it is even the correct address.

I think I do understand what you are intending to say about the aunt. I think you are not focusing on the fact that she called 911, but on the fact that she included so many times that the reason why she was doing it was because she was convinced that no matter how dire the situation, the mom was going to try to prevent them from helping her daughter because of her religious beliefs. Right?

Well, was there any truth to that? I think that was completely accurate. But, if you don't think it is then why not share why that is not true?

Also, how do you think the aunt SHOULD have handled the information she was given about the child in a coma?

There's no point in any of us debating something if we don't all have a clear understanding of what the other person thinks. That is what I am trying to do, understand what you think about how it should have been handled and not just that you disagree with how it WAS handled.

I'm sorry, I was relying on yours and all the others posts more so than the articles, because I trust ya.

 

[sherri79]

I agree. I just for some reason can't see these seemingly loving caring parents, having older children, medical insurance, a business so their pretty darn smart in ways, and just down right deny their daughter the medical care. They just don't seem like un-merciful people to me. I don't see it being a criminal act. Or even negligence. I think this young girl got sick, and got sick quick, and it caught those in authority over her off guard and they weren't prepared or aware of what was transpiring as it developed so rapidly. I would bet my checking account they would have took her to the doctor at get jump street now, I just don't see the criminality to this.

I'm concerned about the permanent scarring this family is going to have to endure, that's what hurts me about this situation. We still have a family unit here, and I'm all about uniting, not dividing.

there is a error in how you are looking at this. you are making a mistake i made when i first spoke in this thread. if you go back and read my feelings tended to be very close to your at the start. i believe in the power of god and the power of prayer to heal. i thought the parents may have made the wrong choice but that they had the best intentions. due to my faith i felt i identified with these parents on some level.

as more information has come to light i can no longer say that. as parents that love god and love our children we would never allow our children to suffer to improve our social standing. this mother built a social circle around her that thought she had the power to heal. not matter how sick her child became she could not take the child to the hospital without a loss of status. i am sure you have met those that do not use faith as a method to become closer to god but instead use faith as a badge to claim how perfect they are.

we may understand the power of prayer to heal but we should look at this case with open eyes. we can no more understand the motives of these parents than we can understand the motives of any parent that allows harm to come to their child.

if you can not find these parents unmerciful ask yourself why. what have you read that tells you they showed the child mercy. as loving parents we would of course feel that for our child. just because these parents share a similar faith does not mean we should project our emotions upon them. we can never truly know the soul of another. only god can and only he can judge that. we can judge the actions these parents took and these are actions that show a lack of mercy.

 

[philamena]

Philamena, we just don't know that. We just don't really without a shadow of a doubt know that. Then to go further, medical treatment may have prolonged life, to what degree, and to what length, we don't know.

We can go by statistics, but not everyone responds to insulin. Not everyone follows the medical journals to a tee. We do have standardized care, and for the most part, it is awesome and reliable. Then there's times when there is no explanation as to an un-expected out of season death.

I agree about statistics and about some responses to insulin. My SIL is a pediatric nurse. She said 99% of kids have a positive response to proper childhood diabetes treatment.

I still say this child's parents were extremely neglectful...they didn't give medicine a chance.
What they did was give their daughter a chance to die.

 

[absinthe]

That would be like driving by someone's house and screaming "A POX ON YOUR HOUSE YOU RAT BAST@RDS!"

OMG, thanks for the laugh! I am so yelling that at somebody today...

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/17153811.html

"There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it."

 

[scarpetta]

I think I may have spoke to soon about these people. Because for quite some time now I have suspected that once a month something demonic puts my uterus in a headlock.

 

[concernedperson]

I think I may have spoke to soon about these people. Because for quite some time now I have suspected that once a month something demonic puts my uterus in a headlock.

LOL! It does seem that way but there is an end in sight...hang on.

 

[scarpetta]

LOL! It does seem that way but there is an end in sight...hang on.

Hanging on!!!!

 

[scarpetta]

Wait...whose end is in sight?

 

[scarpetta]

Another "Christian" view. Whether or not I agree, it is definitely more balanced.....


http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/31476.html

Weston, WI Girl Dies as Parents Pray
March 28, 200801:00 PM EST



FoxNews reported in Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help that an 11 year old Madeline Kara Neumann Weston, Wisconsin recently died from diabetic ketoacidosis, a medically treatable illness. Police are investigating whether or not charges ought to be filed against the parents.


I am constantly amazed whenever I read a story like this. Amazed, shocked, and angered. Today my righteous indignation is directed at every single one who considers themselves Christian and yet will allow this kind of thing to happen because of false and deceptive teachings.
Why does God let a little girl like this die? Truth is, God did not allow her to die, her parents did. Her parents believed that God would intervene with a mighty, supernatural miracle to restore the girl to health. What these parents failed to understand is that God does not perform such miracles on demand. He never did, and he never will. What these parents also failed to understand is that God was willing to and already had performed the miracle that would have saved their precious daughter. That miracle is the miracle of giving us modern medical technology and skilled physicians who were more than willing to do what was necessary to save the little girl's life.


So who is responsible for the death of this little girl? Is God? By no means. Her parents? Well, let's just say that they are not without fault. I suggest the person or persons to look at are the pastors and teachers these parents looked to for their teachings in the Christian faith. Therein lies the crux of the basic problems of Christianity today.


The pastors and teachers of so many evangelical churches, those leaders of so many "non-denominational" entities, teach that doctrine is not important to be a Christian. Yet when one looks at the definition of doctrine, we find the definition "A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group".In terms of Christianity, we are talking about the teachings of Jesus Christ. We are talking about Paul's letters exhorting us to live our faith the way Christ taught us to live. Yet I venture to say that ALL of the pentecostal, evangelical leaders will tell their new converts that it is important to read and study the Bible, to believe that God will "fix" everything you command, IF your faith is strong enough. This is false teaching, people!!


Madeline Kara Neumann did not die because her parent lacked faith as they stated in the article. Madeline Kara Neumann died because her parent's faith was based on lies.


True, Jesus said that if you have the faith the size of a mustard seed (a very small seed which grows into a huge tree) you can command the mountain to cast itself into the sea and it will be done. Yet he also cautions us to use our faith with moderation, and in everything in accordance with the will of the Father. If Father does not will Mt. Whitney to be cast into the sea, no matter how strong my faith is nor how powerful my prayer to have the mountain leap up and throw itself into the Pacific Ocean, it will not be done.


But, if I, by means of my faith in God, organize the engineering effort and manpower required to dig the mountain up and ship it to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and I don't get arrested for it, I can accomplish such a feat. The mountain has been thrown into the sea.


When God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, from whom God already said many nations will be born, Abraham took it by faith that God would provide a way out. But he did not even ask God for that way out. He went by faith to sacrifice the son he loved. As you know, God did provide a way out.


When Moses led the Israelites through the desert for forty years, he never demanded a miracle from God. Instead, when the Israelites grumbled about a lack of food, Moses humbly went to the Lord with their complaint. God then provided the manna after saying he will give the Israelites so much that food would come out their noses, then told Moses to tell them what would happen. God gave them manna in the desert. When they grumbled about a lack of water to drink, Moses went to God and God told Moses to strike the rock and water would flow. God told Moses to perform the miracles. Moses never told God to perform any miracle.


When Joshua marched around Jericho and the walls came crumbling down, he did not demand the miracle from God. God told Jacob what to do, and he did what he was commanded. Likewise in all the other battles in which God intervened supernaturally, God told Joshua what to do. Joshua never demanded a miracle.


When God told Elijah to raise his arms and command the rains to stop, causing a drought, Elijah did what God commanded. When God told Elijah to end the drought, Elijah did what God commanded. God performed the miracle, Elijah demanded nothing.


Likewise all the other prophets of the old testament did God tell them what to do. The prophets never demanded a miracle from God, they only did what God commanded.


Pastors and teachers in evangelical, pentecostal circles are teaching people that God will answer prayers of miracles on demand. The naive believe what they are told without spending the time necessary to verify what their teachers are teaching them (Acts 17:11). God has never performed a miracle on demand of man, and he never will.


The parents of young Madeline Kara Neumann, although as stated in the article did not belong to any church, they were likewise deceived by their previous pastor's teachings. The time is coming, and now has come, Christians, to call to account what you are being taught. Verify with reading of scripture - cover to cover - and with prayer for revelation of God's true meaning, whatever it is your pastors are telling you. If they are deceiving you, call them to account publicly. If you cannot do that, leave them and bring all your friends with. Go find a pastor who teaches truth.


Paul wrote that there are those who come to teach things that people want to hear, deceiving even the elect of God. False prophets and false teachers will come. Indeed, they are here, and they are the cause of the death of little ones like Madeline Kara Neuman of Weston, Wisconsin.


These teachings must stop, and you, my Christian brothers and sisters, are ultimately responsible to make it stop. Tear down the pearly palaces these leaders live in by refusing to give money to their ministries. Take away their Rolls Royces, yachts, and airplanes by the same means.


Use your heart to understand the wisdom of God, not your head. Let God give to you the ability to hear with your ears, see with your eyes, and understand with your heart. Do not let these demons deceive you any longer by leading you along the emotional path they have sucked you into.



Faith is not an emotion.


Should charges be pressed against the parents for neglect? Certainly. But the charges should also be pressed against those who brainwashed these people into believing something scripture clearly teaches against. Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.journaltimes.com/articles/2008/04/01/opinion/doc47efc8449d82c625065317.txt

Religion doesn’t condone recklessness

Tuesday, April 1, 2008 6:56 PM CDT

It’s a lengthy leap from religious to reckless. One Wisconsin couple might have taken it.

By now, much of the world knows the sad story of Madeline Kara Neumann. The 11-year-old girl from a town near Wausau died last week of a diabetic condition in which acid accumulates in a person’s bloodstream.

The girl’s aunt told a 911 dispatcher that, although Kara was in a coma, her parents refused to take her in for medical treatment because of religious beliefs. The girl was pronounced dead a little more than an hour later.

“She’s gonna fight it,” Ariel Gomez of California is heard repeating on a recording of the 911 call obtained by the Wausau Herald.
It remains to be seen whether this case really fits the stereotypical clash between faith and medicine. The girl’s mother, Leilani Neumann, indicated in an interview they are not religious zealots and would have taken the girl to the doctor if they had known the seriousness of the situation.

A preacher from the Unleavened Bread online ministry, with whom the family has corresponded, dismissed the idea that followers are taught to shun medical treatment. They simply believe prayer is the best healer.

Investigators are charged with a difficult task — determining what the family knew and when. Some reports suggest the girl had exhibited symptoms for roughly a month.
The aunt’s words are especially damning. In her emergency call, Gomez said other family members had tried unsuccessfully for several days to convince the parents to take Kara in.

If her account of events is verified, prosecutors should charge Kara’s mother and father criminally. Reckless homicide is one option that has been suggested, although future evidence might warrant a different charge.

Even the final 911 call gives us concern, the one finally made from the Neumanns’ home. Clearly they could have saved valuable time by dialing rescue personnel directly rather than first telling out-of-state family members about the girl’s downward turn.

For many adults, prayer is an integral part of healing. If they choose to abandon all other avenues, the law should never force them.

The law must also hold parents accountable when their choices hurt their children. Especially when those choices cross from spirituality into stubbornness.

 

[scarpetta]

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080401/WDH0101/804010644/1981
Posted April 1, 2008

Family holds private service for girl as investigation continues
“Everest Metro police last week took several books on healing powers and faith, personal diaries, computer equipment and health insurance paperwork from the Neumanns' town of Weston home, according to a copy of the search warrant obtained Friday by the Wausau Daily Herald. They also took a syringe and medicine cup containing a red liquid.


The computers were being analyzed by the State Crime Lab in Madison, Vergin said. Other evidence was being examined locally.


The family held a private service for Kara this past weekend, Leilani Neumann told the Wausau Daily Herald on Monday.”

 

[southcitymom]

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/17153811.html

"There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it."

This Chief of Police certainly believes that the parents did not mean for this to happen - that they believed their daughter was getting better and that prayer was working - that a week before the girl died, people saw her looking just fine.

Also, from the article above:

"Janine Geske, a Marquette University law professor who was a state Supreme Court justice from 1993 to 1998, said a possible criminal charge the parents could face is second-degree reckless homicide, which requires proof of "recklessly causing the death of another human being."

But Wisconsin has laws on the books that also say a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease, Geske said.

If the district attorney believes the parents did not have a "good-faith belief" that the girl was about to die and they had a strong belief in relying on prayer for treatment, it would be difficult to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred, Geske said."

It will be interesting to see if the DA thinks they can make any potential charges stick in light of the evidence we have so far.

My continued prayers for this family.

 

[2sisters]

I have no doubt that they never meant for it to happen. Rusty Yates never meant for his 5 kids to be killed but it happend and he is being blasted for it. Are they sorry? Sure. Is Rusty? Most likely. Yeah losing a child IS a harsh punishment, but I am not so sure these 2 whackos will see losing her as a punishment. I see no difference here, over the top religiousness killed this child and the parents were too blind and dumb to know or give a hoot about the childs well being.

 

[scarpetta]

TRANSCRIPT OF 911 CALL FROM NEUMANN’S HOUSE

This phone call lasts exactly 4 minutes from the time the 911 dispatcher answers until he hangs up.

< > Indicates background words and sounds

MRS. WORMGOOR: <This address…>
DISPATCHER: [incoherent]…..911…
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Oohhhhhhhhhhhh>
MR. WORMGOOR: Hello?
DISPATCHER: 911
MRS. WORMGOOR: <90…98…9807….90…9807…9807 Maplewood…Road>
MR. WORMGOOR: 9807 Maplewood
MRS. WORMGOOR: <Road>
DISPATCHER: Maplewood?
<Dog Barking>
MR. WORMGOOR: I can’t hear you
DISPATCHER: We have an ambulance, the fire department, and an officer responding to your place…you need something?
MR. WORMGOOR: Mm mm
<Small Child upset sounds>
MR. WORMGOOR: The girl is not breathing
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Oohhhhhhhhhhhhh>
DISPATCHER: Ok, do you know how to do CPR?
MR. WORMGOOR: I’m sorry?
DISPATCHER: Do you know how to do CPR sir
MR. WORMGOOR: Did you get the address?
MRS. WORMGOOR: <98..07…Maplewood>
DISPATCHER: Yes, 9807 Maplewood Drive correct?
MR. WORMGOOR: Ok…Yes
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Oohhhhhhhhhhhhhh>
DISPATCHER: Ok, do you know how to do CPR sir
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh>
MR. WORMGOOR: <Here talk>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok, hello?
DISPATCHER: Yes, can you hear me?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Yes!
DISPATCHER: Ok, do you know how to do CPR?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ookay..I don’t know…Noone in here is doing it…Nobody in here’s doin’ it…..can…98…uh…anybody?
DISPATCHER: 9807 Maplewood Drive correct?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok, Yes
DISPATCHER: Ok, we have an ambulance and several people heading to your place
MRS. WORMGOOR: Thank you…several people are heading here….several people….Ok Thank you!
DISPATCHER: Yes..do you want to try CPR on her?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Uh huh…Ok…tell me
DISPATCHER: Ok…lie her flat on her back…position her head up ‘til her airway is
open, ok?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok
DISPATCHER: First put your face by her nose and make sure that she’s breathing, that she’s not breathing. Do you know for sure that she is not breathing?
<baby whimpering>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok…put your face by her nose make sure she’s breathing [sounding panicked] ok!
DISPATCHER: Ok she’s breathing..Is she breathing?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Oh I don’t know, [incoherent] said something about maybe not [panicking sounds]
DISPATCHER: Ok, you need to just calm down and breathe, ok?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok…Ok
DISPATCHER: Now, now just feel by her nose and see if she’s breathing
MRS.WORMGOOR: Ok [incoherent] Ok, Is she breathing? Is she breathing? Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED NEW MALE: <NO!>
MRS. WORMGOOR: No she’s not!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE SAME AS ABOVE: <Call 911!>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Yes, we did! We did! [incoherent] she’s not breathing. Ok she’s not breathing
DISPATCHER: She’s not breathing, right?
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Oohhhhhhhh>
MRS. WORMGOOR: No, I don’t think she [incoherent]
<Dog yapping in room>
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Uuuuuhhhhhhhhhh [incoherent words]>
DISPATCHER: Ok, uh, what I want you to…tilt her head back…
MRS. WORMGOOR: Tilt her head back….tilt her head back….Ok [incoherent]
DISPATCHER: [incoherent] two breaths
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Ooohhh….changing pitch…[incoherent words]>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Tilt her head back…get your mouth on her…get your mouth on her…mouth…tilt her head back…tilt her head back…ok[incoherent]…tilt it...ok, go ahead…tilt her head back and do what? Are you there?
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <Incoherent loud voice in background praying…My Looord……>
DISPATCHER: Yup, can….
MRS. WORMGOOR: [sounds of extreme anxiety]
DISPATCHER: Did you try, did you try putting two breaths to her?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Two what? Do what….I’m sorry [starting to cry]
DISPATCHER: Ok, did you try blowing two breaths into her mouth?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok…Blow into her mouth. Blow into her mouth. Ok, they are, they are, they are
DISPATCHER: And let me know if you get any breaths [incoherent] ..her
MRS. WORMGOOR: Any what?
UNIDENTIFIED ADULT FEMALE: <God!….loud praying>
DISPATCHER: Let me know if she starts breathing again, ok?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok
DISPATCHER: Did you try the two breaths?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok, did you get any [panicked shriek] Ok…ok…[incoherent]…keep breathing through her mouth…breath into her mouth
DISPATCHER: Is she breathing now?
MRS. WORMGOOR: No
DISPATCHER: Ok, you need to tell me what….you need to tell me….Try to calm
down, ok?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok
DISPATCHER: Did she respond to the breaths at all?
MRS. WORMGOOR: I don’t know…I don’t think so
DISPATCHER: Ok
MRS. WORMGOOR: Did she respond to the breaths? Did she respond? [sounds of panic]
DISPATCHER: Ok
MRS. WORMGOOR: No, I don’t think so
DISPATCHER: Ok, what I want you to do…is she is lying flat on her back, correct?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Yes….OH! HERE IT COMES! [screaming incoherent]
RIGHT HERE! [shrieking] HELP! [incoherent shrieking]
DISPATCHER: Ma’am
UNIDENTIFIED MALE : <HERE! OVER HERE!>
<Loud Whistling>
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: <HERE!>
<Hands clapping together>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Over Heeeere! Over HERE!! Please. HELP!!
DISPATCHER: Ma’am…Are you still there?
MRS. WORMGOOR: [incoherent] OVER HERE! ….[incoherent] by but they are turning back [sound of great relief, gasping]
<Loud Whistling>
MRS. WORMGOOR: Are they here?
DISPATCHER: Ok, the officer is going to come in and administer CPR, ok?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Yeah [laughs with relief, breathless]
DISPATCHER: Ok….I’m gonna let you go alright?
MRS. WORMGOOR: Ok, thank you!

DISPATCHER: Bye Bye

 

[Truly]

Their being singled out and it's national attention because it all began at the root of the planted curse, the aunt.

That's why true real christians need to be very aware of who and what is said about them and their families, and shut the mouths up of anyone saying stupid assanine spew of the mouth that does speak curses into their lives by ignorant and sometimes evil people with evil devices.

There is no reasoning, adnoid, with people who would shut your mouth up. But I applaud your efforts. :clap: ...

 

[KOOL LOOK]

And you know the Lord was not speaking to her...how?

From the very first words documented here in a post that came out of her mouth as she comes in contact with the first person she talks with, the very first sentence is how I know. Let me say this, I have no doubt the Lord has spoken to her, many many times in her life just like he does with each and everyone of us. We choose not to listen, or our ears can hear, and not hear, our eyes can see and not see.

Never once, in reading these posts here, have I heard the mother fight a soul. I assume the unidentified female voice we continue to read (hear) in the 911 transcripts is the mother in the background, who obviously fought no one. I haven't seen a fighting bone in her body yet, which very well may be the problem. Dunno, maybe a passive personality, many many have them especially in crisis drama situations. I could begin to feel the urgency in just reading the words of the 911 tape released, I can only begin to imagine how more strongly I would feel if I actually heard the audio.

 

[KOOL LOOK]

There is no reasoning, adnoid, with people who would shut your mouth up. But I applaud your efforts. :clap: ...

'

Let me say this, if I knowingly heard someone speak a lie or a curse into your life, I would be the first to say "Nooooooooooooo" and rebuke that lie from it's beginnings in order that it not be established here on earth. You see, I'm not your enemy.

 

[SewingDeb]

And you know the Lord was not speaking to her...how?

That's what I am wondering Adnoid.

BTW: If any one on this forum happens to be with me and I slip into a coma, please call an ambulance right away. Pray WHILE they take me for medical care. Both of my parents went into a coma before dying, Daddy died the same day he went into his coma and Mom took a week to die after going into her coma. A coma is not a trivial symptom to be taken lightly.

The aunt is the only one in the scenario who did the right thing. It's just so sad that it was too late by that time.