WI WI - Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, 17, Kenosha, 14 Feb 1967

[lucasd]

Was there any rumors going around at the time of a suspect? Sometimes kids talk. Did your sister and Mary Ellen have mutual friends, who may know something or have an idea of may have happened?

I have a feeling the police were concentrating on a male as being the perp, because the murder happened in the early 60s. The thinking back then was old fashioned or pretty narrow sometimes, so they may not have thought about the possibility of a female being responsible.

My sister did not hear alot of rumors because they went to different high schools. My sister left the area shortly after this happened and lost touch with her friends from the area.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

Many of you keep going back to the strong instinct that jealousy was the motive, and that a female perp was involved. If this is the case, then the boyfriend at the time Mary Ellen was murdered must know who this is, or have a very good idea. I would like to hear that LE in Kenosha is reactivating this investigation and focusing on the boyfriend and ROBERT CRANE, who has stated he "knows" who killed Mary Ellen. Really? Then speak up and come forward Robert Crane...or are you just another crackpot?

 

[McSpy]

I just finished reading through the thread, and have a few random thoughts...

I'm passingly familiar with the murders of Sharon Malone and Cheryl Packard, mentioned in one of the posted articles in reference to Mary Ellen's murder. I had read about their case while researching the February 1966 murder of Debbie Fijan. As I recall, 27 year old (at the time) Robert Kramer--who had already been convicted of previous assaults in the area--was tried and convicted of their murder and thought to be involved in other stabbing murders in the area in the same time frame.

Robert Kramer is kinda (and uncomfortably) similar to Robert Crane, mentioned in previous posts as allegedly claiming to have inside knowledge of Mary Ellen's murder.

And while on the subject of Debbie Fijan, its hard not to mention Richard Otto Macek, whom we discussed in depth on Debbie's thread. Macek, though a resident of the Chicago, IL area, is known to have committed at least four murders in WI (one, at a hotel in Lake Geneva---some 30 or 40 miles from Kenosha). Macek was incarcerated in late '67, released in '71, and committed his first confirmed murder in '72. Some of us who have been researching the Debbie Fijan murder feel that he most likely starting killing after the death of his father in early '66.
Debbie was murdered almost one year to the day before Mary Ellen disappeared.
It's been mentioned in this thread that Mary Ellen had cuts on her face---Macek's signatures, if you will, were biting his victims and cutting the faces (specifically, around the eyes).

On another note, I personally feel that her being found in a hearse was incidental to her murder. The vehicle, a 1948 Packard, would have presented itself as a convenient location to hide Mary Ellen's body (or to commit the actual murder). These vehicles, converted to hearses by the Henney Auto Co, had cavernous interiors. Known as 3-way Side Service hearses, they had large doors on both sides (behind the driver and passenger doors) allowing the caskets to be placed inside from the sides as well as the back. This particular Packard had been painted white with blue lettering advertising a local tavern, and didn't present the typical ominous presence that we associate with a hearse.

Was there any evidence of sexual assault in Debbie's case? Was it ever discovered how Robert Kramer got close to his victims? In other words, did he llure them into a car with a smaile and a lie or abducted them in a violent way?

 

[rosesfromangels]

Mary Ellen is still on my prayer grid, and I am bumping this up for her today. Not Forgotten.

 

[McSpy]

I wonder what sort of evidence was collected and kept on file? Could there possibily be any DNA on any of it? Today they can extract skin cells from someone just touching an object.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Bumping this up, with continued prayers for answers.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Not forgotten...

 

[GoBrewers]

I find it really interesting that the man who claims to know the killer states he has been on the internet since 1995 posting info about it, yet hasn't contacted family (most likely easier to get a hold of, my grandparents have better contact with their high school classmates - those still around - than i do, and im only 26.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but i for some reason though about the possibility of a woman losing a child either around her age, or possibly miscarrying close to the time. The lack of defensive wounds on the arms would most likely mean another person is involved, or she was unconscious at the time... JMO obviously, but i see the concrete as something chosen as opportunity, but the tavern hurst, that confuses me.

Obviously just a shot in the dark, hope you find the answers your family deserves.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Prayers for Mary Ellen continue....

 

[lucasd]

Robert Crane has posted on Ancestry.com with his theory and states the police refuse to listen to him and he claims there is a cover up. He says he has proof but it is not fair to the family if this is true and he has not contacted them.

 

[helpthevictims]

Yes he did, and I feel it is very wrong of him to use Ancestry.com as his venue to discuss Mary Ellen's murder. I can appreciate his desire to assist getting to the bottom of this, but he should have reached out to our family FIRST prior to posting his theory. He believes she was murdered by a man whom she was secretly having a relationship with and that she had told him she was preganant, (although autopsy confirms she wasn't). This was certainly always a possibility as I profiled. The 4th suspect on my list was a police officer and this guys was!!!!!! It definetly makes sense. Was he married???? Like I've always said, I just believe it has always had something to do with a woman. Maybe he was protecting his marriage?! He couldn't get caught cheating with a seventeen year old girl, he would possibly go to jail and he couldn't let that happen. I wondered if it could have been a police officer because of the $64 thousand dollar question. "Why put her in the hearse?" IT WAS IN THE POLICE IMPOUND LOT. Was that lot locked? If so how could he have driven in there, dragged her through the snow (where she lost her shoes) and put her in the hearse and stab her to death. I do not believe he did it alone. I have always believed two people, as she DID NOT have any defensive wounds. SOMEBODY WAS HOLDING HER DOWN. THERE HAD TO BE TWO PEOPLE.

 

[helpthevictims]

WOW, You have done your serial killer homework. After months of researching all these similiar cases Gary Leiterman is exactly whom I had come up with. I thought If she was murdered by a serial killer it would be him. But when I talked to the Detective in Kenosha he said he had a main suspect in mind (which I do not agree with). I do think however there is definetly a link of many of the women murdered in Wisconsin and possibly michigan are connected. I always wondered since he was a traveling salesman that if he could be placed in those areas at those times they could link him. I wish cold case detectives would re-work these cases as I just feel some on them could be solved. Wouldn't it be wonderful If we could have access to the evidence they have. I bet all of us WBers could get to the bottom of alot of this. So many of you out there have an incredible insight and are so right on in your theories. Thank you to all of you who continue to keep Mary Ellen's case alive. It is so comforting to know you all care so much. Your all wonderful.:takeabow:

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yes he did, and I feel it is very wrong of him to use Ancestry.com as his venue to discuss Mary Ellen's murder. I can appreciate his desire to assist getting to the bottom of this, but he should have reached out to our family FIRST prior to posting his theory. He believes she was murdered by a man whom she was secretly having a relationship with and that she had told him she was preganant, (although autopsy confirms she wasn't). This was certainly always a possibility as I profiled. The 4th suspect on my list was a police officer and this guys was!!!!!! It definetly makes sense. Was he married???? Like I've always said, I just believe it has always had something to do with a woman. Maybe he was protecting his marriage?! He couldn't get caught cheating with a seventeen year old girl, he would possibly go to jail and he couldn't let that happen. I wondered if it could have been a police officer because of the $64 thousand dollar question. "Why put her in the hearse?" IT WAS IN THE POLICE IMPOUND LOT. Was that lot locked? If so how could he have driven in there, dragged her through the snow (where she lost her shoes) and put her in the hearse and stab her to death. I do not believe he did it alone. I have always believed two people, as she DID NOT have any defensive wounds. SOMEBODY WAS HOLDING HER DOWN. THERE HAD TO BE TWO PEOPLE.

Perhaps she didn't have defense wounds because she had been rendered unconscious? (Let's hope so). I seem to recall there was evidence that she had been dragged to the hearse. If she were unconscious those drag marks would look different than if she had struggled....

 

[rosesfromangels]

Bumping. This case needs to be solved!

 

[simplythebest]

Hi. I want to start by saying I'm a clairvoyant and Tarot reader. I started having dreams about a young girl. These dreams turned out I believe to be Mary Ellen. I want to just say I hadn't had any history on this case, and no connections. I've gotten many things in my readings for her. The info I got, I've learned after reading this forum may be of some use. Here are my findings: I gathered there may have been two people, man and a woman. This woman chose to ignore what was happenin g. Chose to be a there, but refused ytoaccept the events unfolding. Basically covered her eyes. It shows she may have been killed outside, not the hearse. BC I'm seeing the sky and stars. The man involved may have had hair on the lighter end. He was very fond of Mary Ellen. The cards also show that their may be kin alive that could have details. Most likely a child of the woman. The child has light brown hair. I feel like the man involved lived to be an old man. But he is no longer here, so he can't be found for justice. It also shows that Mary Ellen did know him, BC I see him having her look him in the eyes almost like "I want you to see who I am". I got the Earth card when asked about clues left behind. So its possible any clues were left by where the actual attack happened. Left behind by the female, due to her hiding from the events. Caused her to be careless. The clues left behind are long gone. Mother nature took its course. I think it would've been near a hole. Reminds me of a rabbit hole. Also, Mary Ellen says thank you for the pink flowers. Someone left pink flowers for her.

 

[STANDREID]

The only other cinder block or concrete block reference I can find is Portia Bufford aged 8, June '63 http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...gAkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=en4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7312,2175763

More about Portia here, mentions her body being found under a parked rubbish truck
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...N0jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wCcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7419,2926536

A man named James Eddie Lee Wallace confessed to Portia's murder in 1970 and was eventually convicted. He moved to Chicago after Portia's murder but was supposedly living in Denver during 1967. Wallace was described as a black man.

 

[scorpionsting]

I'm reposting this revised posting. I originally posted that this Robert D. Kramer was another one with the same name and birth year who had moved out of state. It's possible, but until I verify it, I can't state it as fact.

According to the May 9, 1967 issue of the Oshkosh Daily Northwestern, Police Chief J. Leo Buchmann said he would like to talk with Robert D. Kramer about the knife slaying of Mary Ellen Kaldenberg in Feb, 1967 in Kenosha, (Kenosha County) WI. Whether the police chief got that opportunity or not never made it to the newspapers that I could find.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/robertkramer.jpg

According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Access, this same person, Robert D. Kramer, (DOB 06-26-1939) was sentenced for a 1st Degree Sexual Assault in Wood County, WI, Case Number 1982CF000116 on 01-01-1982 for a sexual assault back in 06-28-1962. News articles from his younger days show he was also busted twice for burglary with others in burglary rings in Wood County, WI.

http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl;jsessionid=69D011AF80349E419E9D66BE42B98021.render6

According to the Wisconsin Sex Offender Registry, Robert D. Kramer never registered as a sex offender, since,

by law, the registry generally contains information on those individuals who were convicted of, incarcerated, or on supervision for a sex offense on or after December 25, 1993. It is not a list of every person who has ever committed, been arrested for, or convicted of a sex offense.

http://offender.doc.state.wi.us/public/search/searchbyname.jsp

DNA technology was first introduced in criminal court cases around 1988. Since he hasn't registered as a sex offender and they weren't taking DNA in 1982 for his 1962 sexual assault (that I'm aware of), he probably hasn't submitted a sample of DNA, and, so, his DNA isn't in any database.

Since his DNA isn't in any database, then he's still a suspect in the Kaldenberg murder case.

The last newspaper article I could find on Kramer was the Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune, January 14, 1973, in which he was denied parole from Fox Lake Correctional Facility. The article stated he would again be up for parole review in 1974. He had been sentenced to 27 years for kidnapping and stabbing a Sussex, (Waukesha County) WI woman, but was up for parole in 1973. (for some reason that crime was never entered into the WCCA database. Also, some news articles incorrectly state he was sentenced to 72 years. They reversed the numbers)

Again, as stated above, we see he was convicted in 1981 or 1982 for a sexual assault that occurred about 20 years earlier on 06-28-1962 in Wood County, WI, about five years before the Kaldenburg murder. The Wisconsin Rapids Tribune reports he was married on June 17, 1961, so the sexual assault occurred about a year after the marriage.

The question is, where is he today and was there ever any attempt to get DNA from him in the Mary Ellen Kaldenberg murder, either through familial DNA or something as simple as legally collecting his garbage or waiting for him to spit on the sidewalk for DNA evidence? A good place to start would be Racine, WI because an online search shows the above-mentioned family member living there alone.

 

[STANDREID]

The account I have says that the hearse had been there several months.

I don't know if it could be seen by anyone walking past the lot but perhaps that was the case.

Apparently, a 1948 Packard hearse was considered next to junk in 1967. Today, I think it would be worth over $100,000.

Probably the most famous Packard hearse was the one owned by Sam the Sham.

 

[scorpionsting]

JMO obviously, but i see the concrete as something chosen as opportunity, but the tavern hurst, that confuses me.

She was stabbed 12 times; 6 times in the neck, 3 times in the abdomen and 3 times in the right arm. (Another report said she was also stabbed in the forehead and back)

The Sheboygan Press from February 14, 1967 stated

she was found in the rear of a hearse that had been abandoned at a municipal parking lot near a railroad siding about 20 blocks from the girl's home. Authorities said there were marks on her throat, and that a piece of concrete was lying on her abdomen. Concrete blocks were stacked around the body.

The parking area, in a residential area, was used by Kenosha police to store cars waiting for salvage or auction. The hearse had been in the lot several months, police said, and had no wheels. It had been used at various times as transportation for a baseball team and for storage of tires.

Maybe the sign on the side of the hearse, Frankie's Place, is a clue? Too bad it's too hard to read the words below the name in the picture to see which town Frankie's Place was located. There might be an ad in a newspaper from that time period.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/hearse.jpg

The Madison Wisconsin State Journal February 21, 1967 stated

she did not die on the night she disappeared, a preliminary State Crime Laboratory report indicates. Police said Monday the laboratory's investigation shows death came later than the night of Feb. 9 when she left home to go to a nearby drugstore. Officers said no specific date of death had been determined but that a substantial period of time passed before she was slain.

 

[Kell1]

This case bothers me ..

There's ALOT of personation at the scene, which indicates, a maturation of fantasy, most likely over an extended period of time

For those who are unfamiliar with the term, "personation" is behavior at a crime scene done by the offender which isn't necessary for the commission, of the crime. It basically fills a psychological need known only to the offender. It exposes, the reason for the offenders behavior>

Repeated personation over different crime scenes is known as "Signature"

This murder has a lot of personation, the taking of the victim in broad daylight, taking the victim, to an abandoned, car alive, where she is stabbed to death , then cement blocks placed around and on her body fills some psychological need for an offender.

The problem is this one is one that has been festering n his mind for some time.

You are looking at an offender, completely comfortable spending time with her dead body in order to place cement all around her and on her abdomen . Not at all concerned of being seen or caught.

The lack of sexual assault is equally alarming , ill get into why later

The stabbing, itself is interesting stabbing the abdomen of a female is sometimes, representative, of hatred. Its targeting the place where life begins

the stabbing to her arm, Im not so sure about unless it was a type of corrective force to get her into the hearse, IF it was done post mortem, then it could be classified, as what we call "exploratory"

Having a specific psychological need, the lack of remorse, bringing and taking the weapon , the risk involved in the abduction, the ritualistic placing of items around the offender, possible simulated sex through violence .. all representative of a Criminal Psychopath

this isn't someone who had a bad day, or was pissed off at wifey and grabbed a girl off the streets , this scenario was played over in his head for years .

Id say this offender is an EXTREMELY high risk to have re-offended,

The lack of sexual assault is sometimes indicative, of sexual dysfunction, as long as this is part of the problem, the potential for the problem to be a factor in fueling further, homicides, will exist.

Add into that this is a representation of fantasy, that most likely took a long time to reach this point

It can also indicate, an offender, who simply wanted to kill someone, with no sexual necessity out of a rage toward, the victim, though it seems more likely it was toward women in general .

The authorities, should look into ANY similar crimes, in the area at that time, including attempted abductions, this is most likely a stranger, though an acquaintance, cant be ruled out .

This is the type that sometimes, re-visits, crime scenes, and though it wasn't printed I wouldn't doubt he kept something from her , but the police haven't released it

Id feel fairly comfortable saying that this offender, either was, or was on the path to becoming a Serial Killer, I wouldn't doubt he killed again somewhere, and crimes, just weren't linked for whatever reason.

Id think the police had interviewed him already, but he was possibly cleared for some reason.

I feel he would've fled as well