WI WI - Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, 17, Kenosha, 14 Feb 1967

[helpthevictims]

Sorry to hear about your cousin. My cousin was murdered many years ago in a long cold case. That must have been horrific for those school children who found her.

Thank you so much. I too am very sorry for your loss. I am sure those children were traumatized. Do you have a thread on your cousins unsolved case.

 

[helpthevictims]

Upper body stabbing reminds me of what I recently saw on an ID show about the Connecticut Valley serial killer. He did nothing sexual, just stabbing - profilers felt stabbing for him is actually something sexual, so in that sense he is committing a sexual attack.
orm of sexual attack. This killer took his victims shoes (have to double check that), correct me if I'm wrong (anyone?).
He stabbed multiple times, upper body. I do not believe this SK is actually related to Mary murder, just his profile.
How many times was Mary stabbed (sorry to ask)?
Wonder if anything of her's was found missing since SK usually take trophies.

ETA - here's a link to the show I was mentioning:
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide.html

Yes I do know. Is all I can tell you is it is more than the papers reported. She was stabbed in her chest, neck and minor cuts to her forehead as when the perp slashed at her face I'll bet she was fighting to protect her face. Your right about the relationship to the referred case, I too do not believe any connection other than the stabbing itself. I know the I.D. show your talking about, I too saw that last week. I believe when there is no sexual assault that is exactly the profile of the perp (the stabbing is his sex with his victim). Then in other cases I believe it's a personal crime, jealousy, revenge, deep anger. Stabbing over and over is personal to the perp in different ways. Mary Ellen's was personal !!!!!!! Someone local, someone she knew, over jealousy, more than one killer and I always felt maybe a woman was involved too.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

If there is something specific, you would like for us to speculate on and or make assumptions about a possible connection/explanation please post it.

I don't recall reading about the time of day when all of this occurred other than it occurred during evening.
Was it around Dusk on that evening, between 5 and 6 pm When she left and went to the corner store?

​

 

[Kimster]

:rose: Mary Ellen is our featured cold case from 2/19 - 2/26/12 :rose:

Are there any pictures of her available? If someone posts one here, please PM me and I'll copy it to the front page.

:hug:

 

[rosesfromangels]

Initial impressions that come to me...

Shoes next to her - They bury the dead without their shoes on. We sleep without our shoes on. I'm not sure the fact they don't bury the dead without their shoes is common knowlege. Someone in that line of business?
Hearse - the obvious association, and...hearse's have a strong appeal to what we today call "gothic" types. They seek and relish the macabre. Were there any odd cults in the surrounding area?
Concrete on her abdomen - BABY comes to mind. Had she ever been pregnant, lost a child, or had an abortion? I think this is an incredibly important theory to explore.

I would look to anyone who had even the loosest connection to the funeral business. Even a handyman who did oddjobs for them. Someone is obviously obsessed with death,and the macabre. Something also tells me they became obsessed with the abandoned hearse, and felt compelled to "give" it a passenger. Trace the history of that vehicle! Where did it come from, check EVERYONE that was connected to it in ANY way.

Oddly enough, I think the murder was more about the obsession with the hearse, than it was with the girl. These are my initial impressions.

BTW - after the discovery, what became of the hearse? WHO was ultimately responsible for disposing of it? Where? VERY CAREFULLY and thoroughly follow that trail. You just might find your perp. They would want to personally be involved with laying the object of their obsession to rest. And speaking of this, did anyone every investigate the people working in the yard where this hearse was left? I just keep going back to someone's bizarre attachment to the vehicle.

If you still believe the obsession or fixation was with the girl (and not just a random crime), then I would suggest you carefully analyze who was at her funeral/memorial service. (Including who was working in any capacity to support the funeral, or her preparation.)

I know some of this notions sound far reaching, but this is what comes to mind.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I would like to know more about this original Suspect that the news article mentions. How old was he? What did he do for a living? They say that she knew him, and had quarrelled in the past....what about? Had they dated? Was she pregnant? Was he stalking her and did she rebuff him? They reference him having been given a polygraph...did he fail? He moved away...is he still alive? Perhaps he would be willing to share his recollections with an investigative reporter, or the police? After all, if he *is* innocent, I'm sure he'd want to help in any way. Right? By the tone of the paper, it sure sounds like they thought they had found their man. What happened...not enough evidence, or?

 

[fridaybaker]

Initial impressions that come to me...

Shoes next to her - They bury the dead without their shoes on. We sleep without our shoes on. I'm not sure the fact they don't bury the dead without their shoes is common knowlege. Someone in that line of business?
Hearse - the obvious association, and...hearse's have a strong appeal to what we today call "gothic" types. They seek and relish the macabre. Were there any odd cults in the surrounding area?
Concrete on her abdomen - BABY comes to mind. Had she ever been pregnant, lost a child, or had an abortion? I think this is an incredibly important theory to explore.

I would look to anyone who had even the loosest connection to the funeral business. Even a handyman who did oddjobs for them. Someone is obviously obsessed with death,and the macabre. Something also tells me they became obsessed with the abandoned hearse, and felt compelled to "give" it a passenger. Trace the history of that vehicle! Where did it come from, check EVERYONE that was connected to it in ANY way.

Oddly enough, I think the murder was more about the obsession with the hearse, than it was with the girl. These are my initial impressions.

BTW - after the discovery, what became of the hearse? WHO was ultimately responsible for disposing of it? Where? VERY CAREFULLY and thoroughly follow that trail. You just might find your perp. They would want to personally be involved with laying the object of their obsession to rest. And speaking of this, did anyone every investigate the people working in the yard where this hearse was left? I just keep going back to someone's bizarre attachment to the vehicle.

If you still believe the obsession or fixation was with the girl (and not just a random crime), then I would suggest you carefully analyze who was at her funeral/memorial service. (Including who was working in any capacity to support the funeral, or her preparation.)

I know some of this notions sound far reaching, but this is what comes to mind.

Great ideas here! However, although I think that your idea regarding a fixation on death/the macbre is very possible, I also think that the crime scene could be looked at like this: Whoever did this (and here I'm thinking of a previous poster's thoughts on a woman being involved -sorry, can't find the exact post right now- ) maybe instead of being fixated on death, was "fixated" or at least sought out this specific victim, and then "gave her a funeral", because she/he was close to the victim in some way.

The hearse, the shoes off, and from what I understand of the placement of the concrete slabs, a headstone. I seem to remember from somewhere that there were concrete slabs placed all around her, except for in front of her feet, which were situated toward to doors of the vehicle. So, they start at one foot and go up and over her head and down to the other foot -picture it: A headstone shape, if that is indeed what I read.

A woman's touch? Someone who cared about her?

 

[rosesfromangels]

@fridaybaker

Ahhh...yes, the tombstone scenario makes sense. I didn't, however, hear anything that would suggest two perps involved, or anything that strongly suggested one was a woman. What leads you to that? I know her Cousin has this theory based on jealousy. Can we get more info on that?

Do we know how big the town was back in 1967? How many people. What social activities was this young woman involved in? Was she a cheerleader, popular at school? What did she do in her spare time?

-Roses

 

[fridaybaker]

@fridaybaker

Ahhh...yes, the tombstone scenario makes sense. I didn't, however, hear anything that would suggest two perps involved, or anything that strongly suggested one was a woman. What leads you to that? I know her Cousin has this theory based on jealousy. Can we get more info on that?

Do we know how big the town was back in 1967? How many people. What social activities was this young woman involved in? Was she a cheerleader, popular at school? What did she do in her spare time?

-Roses

Actually, I mainly mentioned the woman angle because of what her cousin mentioned. I think maybe a woman, especially 50 or so years ago, might do that type of arranging at the scene, especially if the murder was one of jealously. (Has to get rid of her -maybe her competition in romance?- but outside of that issue, knows and likes her?)

I do think that just the fact that there was no sexual assault also speaks to perhaps a woman perpetrator because I think if it were related to romance/sexual aggression, etc., there would have been something, even if just clothing removed, etc. What are the motives for a man murdering her sans the sexual one? It doesn't look like a robbery to me -why go to the trouble to "arrange" anything? Retribution for a man would usually go back to a sexual theme. "Thrill" killing was highly unusual then.

I don't know, but that's where a woman might come in for me, except for the fact that concrete blocks would need either a man or two people, wouldn't they?

 

[fridaybaker]

Rosesfromangels, the questions you ask above are excellent. We need a complete idea of who this young woman was and the context in which she lived. I hope her cousin can fill us in here.

 

[rosesfromangels]

@fridaybaker

I'm still not getting woman perp out of this, but I'll be interested in hearing more detail from her Cousin, as per my questions previously. Your point of a woman most likely not being able to quickly move the concrete around...good point. I would also think that gender could be somewhat determined by the depth of the wounds, and penetration of bone. (Sorry to be so graphic). If the wounds were deeper and went through bone, then it would suggest the strength of a man.

With regard to the "tombstones." This is really interesting from a symbolic/ritual standpoint, but it also suggests that either these pieces of concrete were staged and ready to go (premeditation), or that the Perp came back after the murder to place them. Otherwise, it would seem like a long time to be lingering around a crime scene arranging this concrete.

I am going to do a little digging around to see if I can find any culture/rituals that bury the dead in this manner. Interesting discussion @fridaybaker. Thank you for engaging, and helping me think deeper.

 

[OldSteve]

Posing and arranging a body seems to be exclusively a male perp thing - correct me if I'm wrong...

ETA: changing my though on this to saying that the elaborate staging in this case seems very much like something a sicko man might do - can't recall a woman ever doing something so bazaar.

 

[fridaybaker]

Okay, rosesfromangels and oldsteve, I'm off to ponder some.....

Also, I've never heard that posing/arranging is a "male" thing but I do agree that wound depth, etc. might indicate male vs. female.

I'm feeling waaay out of my depth here!

 

[McSpy]

Yes I do know. Is all I can tell you is it is more than the papers reported. She was stabbed in her chest, neck and minor cuts to her forehead as when the perp slashed at her face I'll bet she was fighting to protect her face. Your right about the relationship to the referred case, I too do not believe any connection other than the stabbing itself. I know the I.D. show your talking about, I too saw that last week. I believe when there is no sexual assault that is exactly the profile of the perp (the stabbing is his sex with his victim). Then in other cases I believe it's a personal crime, jealousy, revenge, deep anger. Stabbing over and over is personal to the perp in different ways. Mary Ellen's was personal !!!!!!! Someone local, someone she knew, over jealousy, more than one killer and I always felt maybe a woman was involved too.

Interesting that you think it was possible a woman may have been involved. This came to mind when I read through this thread. Was Mary's date a first date? Perhaps, an ex-girlfriend or an admirer of Mary's date was involved. Is Mary's date still available for the police to question?

 

[McSpy]

Actually, I mainly mentioned the woman angle because of what her cousin mentioned. I think maybe a woman, especially 50 or so years ago, might do that type of arranging at the scene, especially if the murder was one of jealously. (Has to get rid of her -maybe her competition in romance?- but outside of that issue, knows and likes her?)

I do think that just the fact that there was no sexual assault also speaks to perhaps a woman perpetrator because I think if it were related to romance/sexual aggression, etc., there would have been something, even if just clothing removed, etc. What are the motives for a man murdering her sans the sexual one? It doesn't look like a robbery to me -why go to the trouble to "arrange" anything? Retribution for a man would usually go back to a sexual theme. "Thrill" killing was highly unusual then.

I don't know, but that's where a woman might come in for me, except for the fact that concrete blocks would need either a man or two people, wouldn't they?

Maybe, the police haven't solved this, because they assumed a man did it. They could have been looking in all the wrong places. I find it interesting that she was very excited about a date that evening, but winds up dead before going on that date.

 

[McSpy]

Mary's mother rented out rooms in her house for $35. per month. I'm assuming police checked out the tenants.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I just spent the last several hours doing research on this...whew! I learned a couple things. First, yes...it does appear there is some "ritual" aspect to the killing, but I'm sure I'm stating the obvious. I spent alot of time reading about various "alternative" groups that have rituals that involve sacrifice, stones, etc. I had to stop after a while because it was really very disturbing, but I did learn enough to believe this girl's murder involved someone who practised these rituals, and perhaps someone who was associated with a "respected" but "shrouded" society?(If a dagger was used, this would be a strong connection.) Second, I found the names of 12 other woman murdered in Wisconsin in the mid 60's/early 70's who were all from child age to early 20's. I looked on a map and couldnt see a real location cluster of any kind, but they were certainly within driving range within a few hours I believe. They are:
Diane Adam/Death: Oct 23, 1974, Watertown - Lillian Crawford/Death:6-4-63, Plainfield - Terri Lee Erdmann:6-24-71, Milwaukee - Joanne Esser: May 1979, Antigo - Lisa A. French:1973/Fond du Lac - Ninfa Lissa Gordon: 8-18-72, Milwaukee - Valie Ann Guzman & her step sister Suzanne Pillar: Aug 19, 1978, Mequon - Kathleen Leightman: Jul 1976/Milwaukee - Irene Mursa: 7-3-61, Merrill - Judy Myrick: 1967, Washington - Mary K. Schlais: December 1974

I'm having a hard time finding any old articles on these murders. Any suggestions on where to look? I'm looking for common traits. I did notice most of them happened in the summer time, but maybe that holds true statistically for most murders?

A start.
-Rosesfromangels

 

[McSpy]

I noticed in one of the articles posted that the concrete slabs were actually blocks. Was it determined where these concrete blocks came from? Could they have been used by the impound lot to place rimless or tireless cars on? According to one of the news articles, tires were once stored in the hearse. Could the concrete blocks have been there before she was placed in the hearse? Also, were the windows of the hearse clear? Could people see inside easily? Was it possible someone was trying to block the view of the body with the concrete blocks?

 

[rosesfromangels]

@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.

 

[rosesfromangels]

@McSpy - those blocks could have been used to stop the cars from rolling/moving as well. I'm looking forward to hearing more details from the decedant's Cousin. As much detail as possible will be great!