Will JBR ever have justice?

[UKGuy]

She also lied about not remembering of she bought one or two sets of Bloomies panties. She had admitted buying a set for JBR and a set for Jenny. That is 2 sets. She knew that very well.
It is also only PR's word that she sent the size 12 that she had bought the moth before the murder- the ones she bought on her shopping trip to NYC. Bloomies STILL sells little girls' panties like that. They could have been bought after the Rs moved back to Atlanta- and they would have still been available.
As far as the R house being bought by that corporation- it was about the money, but more important in MY mind it was about completely erasing any evidence that may have been missed. Think what could have been done with today's crime scene methods- every droplet of blood, every splatter, even TEARS can be discerned. They can lift prints from a dead body.
There were prints incriminating someone somewhere in that house, you can be sure of it.
But when it was sold - every wall was painted, carpets were removed (there go the urine/blood stains) and the wineceller was sealed behind a wall. The home was completely sanitized. If it hadn't been for the fact that they DID want to make money, they would have razed the house completely.

DeeDee249,
The possible removal of any forensic evidence is assumed, more importantly is the lack of transparency, this just fuels the suspicion of a conspiracy.


.

 

[UKGuy]

..they sure were going to get the money from that house somehow,weren't they?! ..either from a fake foundation/charity,or via some other means.

JMO8778,
Thats how its done, its possible that one of Alex Hunters companies offered a mortgage loan to the company created to assume ownership of the Ramsey household?

 

[trixie]

I have been thinking about Aunt P and her house raid. I find it simply incredible that LE never went with her through the house and catalogued what she removed.
JBR wore pink pajamas Cristmas Eve- she is seen in them in photos Christmas morning. If you look at the crime scene photos of JBR's room, there is a pink garment on the bed that looks like those pajamas. When asked, PR stated that it was her pajama TOP. Now, where were those bottoms? The R house was an untidy one, I can totally see JBR taking her pajamas off and leaving them on her unmade bed Christmas morning. I can see PR not making the beds (her housekeeper would have done this when she was there; she did not come Christmas Day).
We have only PR's word that she couldn't find her pajama bottoms and that's why she put the long johns on her. What if that isn't true? What if she put the pink pajamas on her and THOSE were stained (feces, urine, BLOOD?) Maybe the original Bloomies' panties and pink pajama bottoms were both stained with blood and thats why they were replaced. I don't recall ever seeing PR questioned about where the pink pajama bottoms were; she also admitted buying the Bloomies panties for JBR IN HER CORRECT SIZE. Why was she not asked where they were? I never recall seeing that any Bloomies panties of ANY size were taken into evidence, nor those pink pajamas. PR admitted buying the panties in two sizes, JBR's and cousin Jenny. (the larger size 12) We know the Rs sent along the size 12s to LE MONTHS after they moved to Atlanta. Why did LE never ask about the size 6 panties or the pink pajamas she was known to own? They disappeared - I wonder where and why? I believe Aunty took them, too. She had plenty of time...PR and JR had a few days to get together a list of what to take.
Then...before you knew it- the home was released to the family and promptly EMPTIED wall to wall. Then it was sold to a group of R friends (and I bet some of those "friends" were their defense lawyers) and it was stripped bare, painted, carpets replaced- the whole house sanitized. The crime scene gone forever. Even the wineceller was walled up!
Anyone here ever hear about those pajamas?[/QUOTE]

I can't find a large crime scene photo of her bed but long ago I saw her pj bottoms on that bed. If you could link me to a large photo i could find them again. All the pics i find are too small to see anything and I can't enlarge them.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have been thinking about Aunt P and her house raid. I find it simply incredible that LE never went with her through the house and catalogued what she removed.
JBR wore pink pajamas Cristmas Eve- she is seen in them in photos Christmas morning. If you look at the crime scene photos of JBR's room, there is a pink garment on the bed that looks like those pajamas. When asked, PR stated that it was her pajama TOP. Now, where were those bottoms? The R house was an untidy one, I can totally see JBR taking her pajamas off and leaving them on her unmade bed Christmas morning. I can see PR not making the beds (her housekeeper would have done this when she was there; she did not come Christmas Day).
We have only PR's word that she couldn't find her pajama bottoms and that's why she put the long johns on her. What if that isn't true? What if she put the pink pajamas on her and THOSE were stained (feces, urine, BLOOD?) Maybe the original Bloomies' panties and pink pajama bottoms were both stained with blood and thats why they were replaced. I don't recall ever seeing PR questioned about where the pink pajama bottoms were; she also admitted buying the Bloomies panties for JBR IN HER CORRECT SIZE. Why was she not asked where they were? I never recall seeing that any Bloomies panties of ANY size were taken into evidence, nor those pink pajamas. PR admitted buying the panties in two sizes, JBR's and cousin Jenny. (the larger size 12) We know the Rs sent along the size 12s to LE MONTHS after they moved to Atlanta. Why did LE never ask about the size 6 panties or the pink pajamas she was known to own? They disappeared - I wonder where and why? I believe Aunty took them, too. She had plenty of time...PR and JR had a few days to get together a list of what to take.
Then...before you knew it- the home was released to the family and promptly EMPTIED wall to wall. Then it was sold to a group of R friends (and I bet some of those "friends" were their defense lawyers) and it was stripped bare, painted, carpets replaced- the whole house sanitized. The crime scene gone forever. Even the wineceller was walled up!
Anyone here ever hear about those pajamas?[/QUOTE]

I can't find a large crime scene photo of her bed but long ago I saw her pj bottoms on that bed. If you could link me to a large photo i could find them again. All the pics i find are too small to see anything and I can't enlarge them.

Trixie- are you sure it was the pajama BOTTOMS on that bed? Because on Acandyrose there are crime scene photos where if you click on them they will enlarge. I have looked at the photo of JBR's bed many times - you CAN see a pink garment on the bed, but I recall when PR was asked about that photo and that pink garment, she said it was JBR's pink pajama TOP. I don't recall ever seeing a pic that showed it clearly enough to be able to tell whether is the pink top or the pink bottoms.

 

[Ames]

Trixie- are you sure it was the pajama BOTTOMS on that bed? Because on Acandyrose there are crime scene photos where if you click on them they will enlarge. I have looked at the photo of JBR's bed many times - you CAN see a pink garment on the bed, but I recall when PR was asked about that photo and that pink garment, she said it was JBR's pink pajama TOP. I don't recall ever seeing a pic that showed it clearly enough to be able to tell whether is the pink top or the pink bottoms.

Yeah, and that would have been pretty stupid of her to have said in her interview..that she put long johns on JB, because she couldn't find the pink PJ bottoms...when they were lying right there on JB's bed the whole time. I am sure that Haney would have pointed that out to her....(I don't know...maybe NOT)...and she would have said that she had selective blindness. "Oh, well....I must have been blind that day...I have a problem with that sometime, you know. I can just be going about my business..and suddently, I just go....ummmm....blind. I guess that's why I didn't see the pj bottoms lying on her bed."

 

[trixie]

Trixie- are you sure it was the pajama BOTTOMS on that bed? Because on Acandyrose there are crime scene photos where if you click on them they will enlarge. I have looked at the photo of JBR's bed many times - you CAN see a pink garment on the bed, but I recall when PR was asked about that photo and that pink garment, she said it was JBR's pink pajama TOP. I don't recall ever seeing a pic that showed it clearly enough to be able to tell whether is the pink top or the pink bottoms.

http://www.acandyrose.com/002jonbenetbed.jpg

"Way back when" I'm sure some posters here will remember, there was a discussion about this picture. Someone said they saw what could be JB's pj bottoms in this picture. You can only see it if you have a very clear picture. There is a swatch of pink material peeking out from underneath her pillow pointing toward the foot of the bed. It was the consensus of the group at the time that it must be her "missing" botttoms. It makes sense to me since they were suppose to be under her pillow according to Patsy and obviously the top is there. It looks to me like they got picked up along with the pillow when it got moved. Take a look and see what you think. Can you explain that pink material? Do you see it?

 

[UKGuy]

http://www.acandyrose.com/002jonbenetbed.jpg

"Way back when" I'm sure some posters here will remember, there was a discussion about this picture. Someone said they saw what could be JB's pj bottoms in this picture. You can only see it if you have a very clear picture. There is a swatch of pink material peeking out from underneath her pillow pointing toward the foot of the bed. It was the consensus of the group at the time that it must be her "missing" botttoms. It makes sense to me since they were suppose to be under her pillow according to Patsy and obviously the top is there. It looks to me like they got picked up along with the pillow when it got moved. Take a look and see what you think. Can you explain that pink material? Do you see it?

trixie,
That probably is the pj bottoms, we would have been told if they had been missing by the RST, since it would have confirmed anything Patsy said.

Since these photographs were not taken until long after JonBenet was discovered dead, they cannot be used to speculate with any confidence upon what may have taken place, but with JonBenet's pajamas lying on the bed, this suggests she never ever wore them that night.

This would be consistent with JonBenet being awake and snacking pineapple shortly after arriving home. Also why if Patsy was reluctant to remove JonBenet's white gap top, since she was sleeping, was there any necessity to place longjohns on her at all?

That Patsy and John agree on placing a sleeping JonBenet to bed, with John changing his account too, this tells you John was involved prior to dialling 911. Steve Thomas' theory conveniently factors out John, laying all the blame on Patsy, there are other aspects of Steve Thomas' theory where he disagrees with Detective Harmer who presented pictures of a healthy vagina compared against JonBenet's which was unnaturally enlarged, Det. Harmer cited expert opinion that there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse. Also the presence of a splinter found inside JonBenet is either evidence of staging, prior abuse, or both. Now the point here is that if the splinter came from the paintbrush handle as Steve Thomas alludes to, then presumably it arrived there within the same timeframe that she was garroted? This tells you that the wine-cellar stager knew that JonBenet's longjohns and size-12 undwear were urine-stained and the latter blood-stained. Also presumably it was at this point JonBenet was wiped down? So why leave her wearing urine-soaked longjohns if bedwetting was the spark that led to her death?

For those with an eye to detail, bear in mind Steve Thomas breaks his PDI into four main parts,

1.

1.1 JonBenet wets the bed.
1.2 Patsy loses it and accidently causes JonBenet's head to strike some hard surface.
1.3 Patsy removes the red turtleneck and cleans up JonBenet depositing the black fibers.
1.4 Patsy redresses JonBenet.

2.

2. Patsy relocates JonBenet's body from upstairs to the wine-cellar.

3.

3. Patsy authors the Ransom Note.

4.

4.1 Patsy returns to the wine-cellar, finding JonBenet alive, proceeds to garrote her.
4.2 Patsy then stages an intruder kidnapping homicide.
4.3 Patsy then dumps any remaining forensic evidence outdoors in a sewer or a neighbors trash can.

 

[Ames]

http://www.acandyrose.com/002jonbenetbed.jpg

"Way back when" I'm sure some posters here will remember, there was a discussion about this picture. Someone said they saw what could be JB's pj bottoms in this picture. You can only see it if you have a very clear picture. There is a swatch of pink material peeking out from underneath her pillow pointing toward the foot of the bed. It was the consensus of the group at the time that it must be her "missing" botttoms. It makes sense to me since they were suppose to be under her pillow according to Patsy and obviously the top is there. It looks to me like they got picked up along with the pillow when it got moved. Take a look and see what you think. Can you explain that pink material? Do you see it?

I SEE IT!! I SEE IT!!! By george, I believe that you are onto something here. Yes, it looks like it could be the bottoms, its the exact same color as the top (which is at the "head" of the bed.) I think that what you said probably happened....DID happen. When the pillow was moved, the pj bottoms went along with it. Patsy obviously didn't look very hard for them, now did she? I think that the fact that the pillow is at the foot of the bed, says that JB was not asleep when she arrived home, and promptly placed into the bed. Why would her head be at the FOOT? And why would an intruder move her pillow...that makes no sense. I believe that either Patsy moved the pillow, for staging purposes. Whoever moved the pillow, must have been in a hurry, if they didn't notice the pink pj bottoms under it. I think that Patsy tried to make the bed look messy on purpose. When in fact, if it had of been an actual intruder...he would have just snatched her up...not moved her pillow at the foot of the bed, what was the point in doing THAT?

 

[Ames]

trixie,
That probably is the pj bottoms, we would have been told if they had been missing by the RST, since it would have confirmed anything Patsy said.

Since these photographs were not taken until long after JonBenet was discovered dead, they cannot be used to speculate with any confidence upon what may have taken place, but with JonBenet's pajamas lying on the bed, this suggests she never ever wore them that night.

This would be consistent with JonBenet being awake and snacking pineapple shortly after arriving home. Also why if Patsy was reluctant to remove JonBenet's white gap top, since she was sleeping, was there any necessity to place longjohns on her at all?

That Patsy and John agree on placing a sleeping JonBenet to bed, with John changing his account too, this tells you John was involved prior to dialling 911. Steve Thomas' theory conveniently factors out John, laying all the blame on Patsy, there are other aspects of Steve Thomas' theory where he disagrees with Detective Harmer who presented pictures of a healthy vagina compared against JonBenet's which was unnaturally enlarged, Det. Harmer cited expert opinion that there was evidence of chronic sexual abuse. Also the presence of a splinter found inside JonBenet is either evidence of staging, prior abuse, or both. Now the point here is that if the splinter came from the paintbrush handle as Steve Thomas alludes to, then presumably it arrived there within the same timeframe that she was garroted? This tells you that the wine-cellar stager knew that JonBenet's longjohns and size-12 undwear were urine-stained and the latter blood-stained. Also presumably it was at this point JonBenet was wiped down? So why leave her wearing urine-soaked longjohns if bedwetting was the spark that led to her death?

For those with an eye to detail, bear in mind Steve Thomas breaks his PDI into four main parts,

1.


2.


3.


4.

No way that Patsy could have done all of this on her own....she had help...and her help was John. IMO

 

[UKGuy]

No way that Patsy could have done all of this on her own....she had help...and her help was John. IMO

Ames, I agree 100%. John was involved either from the start, or shortly after JonBenet's death. I also reckon Steve Thomas' PDI is flawed in parts, the PDI as presented in his book, is likely for public consumption, since it ignores all the evidence not yet in the public domain. .

 

[trixie]

I SEE IT!! I SEE IT!!! By george, I believe that you are onto something here. Yes, it looks like it could be the bottoms, its the exact same color as the top (which is at the "head" of the bed.) I think that what you said probably happened....DID happen. When the pillow was moved, the pj bottoms went along with it. Patsy obviously didn't look very hard for them, now did she? I think that the fact that the pillow is at the foot of the bed, says that JB was not asleep when she arrived home, and promptly placed into the bed. Why would her head be at the FOOT? And why would an intruder move her pillow...that makes no sense. I believe that either Patsy moved the pillow, for staging purposes. Whoever moved the pillow, must have been in a hurry, if they didn't notice the pink pj bottoms under it. I think that Patsy tried to make the bed look messy on purpose. When in fact, if it had of been an actual intruder...he would have just snatched her up...not moved her pillow at the foot of the bed, what was the point in doing THAT?

Hi Ames! I'm so glad you see it. You can only see it with a very sharp distinct photo and some of the photos of her bed are fuzzy. That is definetly pink material. I of course don't know for sure that it is her bottoms but I do believe it is them. I'm one who also believes JB never made it to bed that night. Perhaps she was in the middle of getting dressed for bed, like she got as far as putting on the long johns but still had her shirt on when something happened? She never got to finish? I've never believed a word of the story JR and PR gave about arriving home with her sound asleep.. No way did that happen.

 

[JMO8778]

I SEE IT!! I SEE IT!!! By george, I believe that you are onto something here. Yes, it looks like it could be the bottoms, its the exact same color as the top (which is at the "head" of the bed.) I think that what you said probably happened....DID happen. When the pillow was moved, the pj bottoms went along with it. Patsy obviously didn't look very hard for them, now did she? I think that the fact that the pillow is at the foot of the bed, says that JB was not asleep when she arrived home, and promptly placed into the bed. Why would her head be at the FOOT? And why would an intruder move her pillow...that makes no sense. I believe that either Patsy moved the pillow, for staging purposes. Whoever moved the pillow, must have been in a hurry, if they didn't notice the pink pj bottoms under it. I think that Patsy tried to make the bed look messy on purpose. When in fact, if it had of been an actual intruder...he would have just snatched her up...not moved her pillow at the foot of the bed, what was the point in doing THAT?

I think it was also (you?)that had speculated once that JB may have been laid flat on the bed,to check on her head injury and or clean her up? And that the pillow was moved so her head would be flat.I won't go so far as to say they may have tried CPR on her,though.
Also remember that Patsy asked during one interview 'I don't see any blood on it,do you?',in talking about the headboard.
Just from looking at the pic,it is obvious that NO INTRUDER TOOK HER FROM HER BED.I have doubts that she ever made it to bed,too.

 

[trixie]

No that wasn't me but that's an interesting thought. (I don't know why my name comes up uner Ames quote. Forum weirdness, I guess.)

 

[Blondieskatz]

Also remember that Patsy asked during one interview 'I don't see any blood on it,do you?',in talking about the headboard.
Just from looking at the pic,it is obvious that NO INTRUDER TOOK HER FROM HER BED.I have doubts that she ever made it to bed,too.

I don't remember reading that in any of the interviews. Do you remember which interview that was JMO or do you have a link?

I believe think maybe JBR had a pineapple snack that night and was watching TV at the end of her bed that night before she was killed. Maybe she didn't want to go to sleep and it made PR angry and an arguement ensued.

 

[trixie]

I defintly remember that comment by Patsy. I don't know which interview it was in though. ACANDYROSE has all the interviews if you want to look for it.

 

[JMO8778]

..it was in one Ames had posted on a thread awhile back.lemme see if I can find which one it was...

 

[Ames]

Ames, I agree 100%. John was involved either from the start, or shortly after JonBenet's death. I also reckon Steve Thomas' PDI is flawed in parts, the PDI as presented in his book, is likely for public consumption, since it ignores all the evidence not yet in the public domain. .

I think that he became involved shortly after JB's death.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames! I'm so glad you see it. You can only see it with a very sharp distinct photo and some of the photos of her bed are fuzzy. That is definetly pink material. I of course don't know for sure that it is her bottoms but I do believe it is them. I'm one who also believes JB never made it to bed that night. Perhaps she was in the middle of getting dressed for bed, like she got as far as putting on the long johns but still had her shirt on when something happened? She never got to finish? I've never believed a word of the story JR and PR gave about arriving home with her sound asleep.. No way did that happen.

I think that it is a high probablility that it IS the pink pj bottoms, because...to me...it looks exactly like the same color of pink as the pj top. I believe that after the Ramsey's arrived home from the Whites. JB walked in on her own. She sat at the table and had some pineapple. She went up to her room, and either she or Patsy put her in a red turtleneck and some pj bottoms, I don't believe that she wore the long johns at first..to bed. I do not believe that Patsy ever made it to bed, though. I think that JB wet the bed sometime later...and this enraged Patsy. I do not believe Patsy's story about JB being asleep when she came home..and Patsy placing the long johns on JB WHILE SHE WAS ASLEEP. Why would someone try to put those tight things on a sleeping child??

 

[Ames]

I think it was also (you?)that had speculated once that JB may have been laid flat on the bed,to check on her head injury and or clean her up? And that the pillow was moved so her head would be flat.I won't go so far as to say they may have tried CPR on her,though.
Also remember that Patsy asked during one interview 'I don't see any blood on it,do you?',in talking about the headboard.
Just from looking at the pic,it is obvious that NO INTRUDER TOOK HER FROM HER BED.I have doubts that she ever made it to bed,too.

Yep, it was me...yes, I have wondered if the pillow was moved for that reason. Actually that scenario makes more sense than Patsy moving it for staging purposes. I do believe that after the head wound that JB's nose, mouth, and maybe her ears were bleeding. It seems to reason that Patsy would have picked her up and placed her flat on the bed. Because that is what you are supposed to do when you have a nose bleed, lie flat...and tilt your head back. She may have had to move the pillow for that purpose. Haney questioned her about JB having night time nosebleeds, because there were blood stains on her pillow. Patsy said that she never had those. Where did the blood stain come from then? My guess is probably from JB's ears, nose, or mouth...or all three..before Patsy moved it to the foot of the bed, to lie her flat, and to tilt her head back.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, Trixie, I do see it. Although the comforter is also pink, you can just make out the bit of fabric in a different shade of pink- one that matches the pajama top at the head of the bed. I also believe JBR was not asleep when she got home; she had some pineapple and then got ready for bed. I think that her pink pajamas (that she is seen wearing Christmas morning) were put under her pillow, as usual. (Lots of people do this, too) I think that when PR was looking for them, she picked up the pillow to look, tossing it at the foot of the bed, and inadvertently picked up the pink bottoms with it, and didn't notice them. She admits pulling the long johns on JBR because she can't find the pajama bottoms. I think this is probably true. PR has lied about many things, but that does not mean that she lied about every single detail. She has truths and half-truths mixed in with the lies.