WM3 are guilty- Evidence.

[Who Did It?]

John Douglas, IMO, got it right.

I'm currently reading his book (can't remember the name) where he discusses this case. I'm almost to the WMIII section and looking forward to reading it.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Law and Disorder. I read it recently. It was very good. IIRC, about a third of the book is about this case.

 

[easongt]

Dark Places. Just finished book. Watched movie on demand... But it wasn't great like the book. Fiction... But some similarities to WM3

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I'm an old conservative who believes in their innocence, based primarily on my 25 years' teaching high school students. DE, JB and JM are three "types" whom I have taught. DE, the intelligent rebel (with poverty as a contributing factor) who is a basic loner with a few close friends but who shies away from others or makes outrageous statements to push others away, JB, the quiet one who is really a good son (babysitting and helping out in other ways around the house) and a decent, if not exemplary student and JM, the mentally challenged youth who, IMO, was callously manipulated by LE and other authority figures were in my classrooms. These boys (at the time of the crime) are not criminal types. John Douglas, IMO, got it right. This was a "personal cause" homicide and, as such, the perpetrator(s) were connected with the boys, or at least one of them, on a personal level. TH, with his history of domestic abuse (MF and his first marriage, if one chooses to dismiss the statements from PH and her mother and sisters) and his slaughterhouse experience, not to mention the only person with physical evidence connected to the crime, is a much more viable suspect. The saddest thing is why he is not now and has never been a suspect. When someone discovers why he has this "Teflon" status, we will be well on the track to solving this crime. Yes, I, like many others, suspected JMB for a time but have since ruled him out. (I believe his own time line simply doesn't allow enough unaccounted-for time to commit these murders.) So, I still plead, "Reopen the case and investigate TH." Only then can the truth be revealed.

I completely agree with this.

Everyone knows the social types that presented as teenagers here. We all had them in our schools. The DE type, the rocking angst driven social misfit, is living in every school and has since the beginning of time.
When you look at this case with only the evidence you see it has nothing to do with these then kids and everything to do with a devil worshiping craze and a corrupt witness who was an "expert" in such and skewed this bible belt community along with a prosecutor who was more interested in fame than justice.
I have looked at this case from every side and one thing remains. WM3 did not do this.
The evidence points to someone else but until they get a new fresh willing to buck the system govt in there, they will never go after the killer. The killer that walks free and clear with no scrutiny at all. They won't ever admit they were wrong.

 

[sloane7777]

No one could have said that better Scarlett! 100% agree!!!!!

 

[Graznik]

Oh, wow, super stoked to come back after the weekend and find that there's been so much posting going on here!

I could not agree more with what CR and CL have said, nor do I think there's anything else I could add really. Cheers for the really thorough posts guys, and cheers to easongt for having a sense of humour although we disagree (the jury is still out on Bigfoot).

Regarding the "survey" of supporters, nons and fencies, I'm probably what many would perceive as a pretty typical supporter - young (roughly the same age as the victims would've been), "liberal", educated, and a former "goth" (such a misused label, but it gets the point across and I do listen to some goth...). However, out of all the people I've gotten in touch with personally through this case, I'm the only one that fits that description. So I'd like to say that there's really no typical supporter. The only thing typical of nons is that they tend to trust the justice system and law enforcement, accepting what supporters tend to question. The fencies I'm not so sure of.

Regarding witch hunts and what not, against others than the WM3, I have not yet seen such a thing take place here on Websleuths. For most part the discussion is civilised and to the point.
However, it's important to be able to discuss possible perps, and point out the people who were and remain likely suspects. That should not be equated to a witch hunt. It's what can keep this case going in whatever small shape it might be. I ain't hunting nobody, nor am I encouraging others to do so.

Edited as I didn't want to go even further off topic...

 

[missy_g]

Graznik, I'm pretty similar to you. About the age of the victims, educated, went through a rebellion stage (exactly like the WM3) etc and I agree that there is no typical supporter.
I like to hear BOTH sides and I get super frustrated when non don't want to hear both sides, only their side.
This case is so baffling and there are things that blow my mind like Bojangles, the smelly box, and The Hobbs Family Secret. They are things that are either distractions, or are part of these crazy web.
I know I haven't been here in a long time. I just happened to see on my app there were replies to this thread. I see it's like it has been here for years, just the conversation back and forth.
I still like you guys [emoji106]🏻


Sent By Owl

 

[Graznik]

Graznik, I'm pretty similar to you. About the age of the victims, educated, went through a rebellion stage (exactly like the WM3) etc and I agree that there is no typical supporter.
I like to hear BOTH sides and I get super frustrated when non don't want to hear both sides, only their side.
This case is so baffling and there are things that blow my mind like Bojangles, the smelly box, and The Hobbs Family Secret. They are things that are either distractions, or are part of these crazy web.
I know I haven't been here in a long time. I just happened to see on my app there were replies to this thread. I see it's like it has been here for years, just the conversation back and forth.
I still like you guys [emoji106]��


Sent By Owl

Welcome back, I hope you decide to stick around

My "rebellious stage" never ended haha, although most people mellow out a bit with age - me included.
There might have been a typical supporter once upon a time, but even then I'd doubt it. The whole supporter movement just came to a complete halt after the Alford pleas, and although I don't judge anyone it's just such a shame. There's still no justice.

It would take some pretty extraordinary circumstances for me to ever consider the WM3 guilty. The one thing I am sure of regarding this case is their innocence. Like you said, there's a lot of stuff that just leaves you baffled more than anything. However, if people are polite and to the point I don't mind listening to nons or supporters that happen to disagree with me. I think TH is the most likely suspect, but given sufficient evidence and analysis I'd be willing to change my mind.

And yeah, it's a lot of going back and forth at the moment. There's simply nothing happening case wise, so "old" things get rehashed over and over again. Although, sometimes there's clearly a need for that, and maybe, just maybe, something new might be discovered through it every now and again.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Graznik, I'm pretty similar to you. About the age of the victims, educated, went through a rebellion stage (exactly like the WM3) etc and I agree that there is no typical supporter.
I like to hear BOTH sides and I get super frustrated when non don't want to hear both sides, only their side.
This case is so baffling and there are things that blow my mind like Bojangles, the smelly box, and The Hobbs Family Secret. They are things that are either distractions, or are part of these crazy web.
I know I haven't been here in a long time. I just happened to see on my app there were replies to this thread. I see it's like it has been here for years, just the conversation back and forth.
I still like you guys [emoji106]��


Sent By Owl

Welcome back, I hope you decide to stick around

My "rebellious stage" never ended haha, although most people mellow out a bit with age - me included.
There might have been a typical supporter once upon a time, but even then I'd doubt it. The whole supporter movement just came to a complete halt after the Alford pleas, and although I don't judge anyone it's just such a shame. There's still no justice.

It would take some pretty extraordinary circumstances for me to ever consider the WM3 guilty. The one thing I am sure of regarding this case is their innocence. Like you said, there's a lot of stuff that just leaves you baffled more than anything. However, if people are polite and to the point I don't mind listening to nons or supporters that happen to disagree with me. I think TH is the most likely suspect, but given sufficient evidence and analysis I'd be willing to change my mind.

And yeah, it's a lot of going back and forth at the moment. There's simply nothing happening case wise, so "old" things get rehashed over and over again. Although, sometimes there's clearly a need for that, and maybe, just maybe, something new might be discovered through it every now and again.

Thanks to Graznik for telling me how to "multi-quote" in a reply!

I'm "proof positive" that there's no "typical" supporter. I'm a Republican. I'm a Conservative. My son is one month younger than Damien (so, I'm a senior citizen). Not a thing like the "typical" supporter - more like the nons! However, what I do share with supporters is my absolute confidence in the innocence of DE, JB and JM. I think that, after DE got off of Death Row, a lot of people who were only following the case because of the death penalty conviction were satisfied with the Alford pleas. DE was off of Death Row. For me, I can't "give it up" until I know the truth! I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The truth will be revealed - eventually.

PATIENCE!

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

I think the reasons why many are absorbed by this case, go a little deeper than political, religious, age, lifestyle views. Maybe we're all trying to fill in a few blanks in our own lives. It certainly touches "parts" that we all have in common, and that's what I find fascinating.

I came in very late on this case (one and a half years ago), I was so busy with my own life, I wasn't really aware of a lot that was going on in the world.

I think you could describe the WM3 story as a witch hunt, but I wouldn't say this is true in the case of JMB or TH. After the initial clouds of media and other propaganda cleared, a lot of attention was given to the "natural suspects".

As with Damien and the WM3, there is a certain codex you should follow if you're in such a position, and that is "play the ball low". The WM3 had a natural right to extend this codex due to their age, the age at which we are all in a period of transition, a period of finding ourselves.

JMB drew attention to himself and was responsible for many people getting on his back. As I said in my previous post, I think everyone should have the chance to put themselves back on the road, and I think JMB took his chance. The logic that JMB jumped from one bandwagon to the other to protect his own backside, doesn't fit in my opinion. If he was the perp, would the killer of three young boys have any moral problems in leaving the WM3 in the nick ? Why take the risk ? He knew TH for 14 yrs up until 2007, long enough to make his own picture of him.

As for TH, I'm afraid he has never done anything to warrant a change of opinion in public. His manner of handling things is very disturbing, his will to clear up the situation is non-existent. He claims more than often that he is a victim. He is the most viable suspect and many questions go unanswered . I've stated many times, I don't hate TH, I don't know him personally, I think if TH did not kill these three boys, he has nothing to fear. At the same time I say, he who has nothing to fear, has no reason to lie, be devious, obstruct justice, and at the same time, claim he is a victim. He is now the centre of this story, I feel we all have the right to question him as a member of our society, because those that represent us, for some reason, won't do it. He always has the chance to put himself back on the road again. One thing's for sure, if this case is ever re-opened, the perp is certainly going to get a better deal than the WM3. The maximum losers in this case, will always be Stevie, Chris, and Michael.

I don't think it's possible to profile the supporters or nons, as far as I can see, it's quite a mixed bunch, even some Republicans have a heart (dig, dig), and a big one as CR displays!! As for myself, I'm old enough to say "my future's behind me". I've been a semi-professional musician / composer for almost 40 yrs. Graznik, I actually had a Goth band for 2-3 yrs. I did a lot of live music for 25 yrs, mostly my own material. I'm not a celebrity though, more an anti-celebrity. Music has been the main anchor in my life, since I was three years old, where I won the local "twist" contest. CD's in my collection - Fields of the Nephilim, Fugazi, NoMeansNo, Tool, Richard Buckner, Mark Kozelek, Tim Eriksen, Massive Attack, Randy Crawford, a lot of Reggae, a lot of soul, and some classic.........the list is endless. I am also a budding psychologist, 20 years of theory, and a lot of years practical work in a self support group. Politically I'm more on the left, spiritually I'm all over the place. My heart is the boss, my head is the secretary, my limbs are the peasants, I'm a piece of driftwood, just passing through................please forgive me, thread derailed.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I agree 100%, CL! However, I still think it's interesting to learn background on those of us who are still obsessed with this case. Thanks for the info!

 

[thared33]

My "rebellious stage" never ended haha, although most people mellow out a bit with age - me included.

That makes three of us Except instead of mellowing out I've actually gotten more intense, in a way.

I'm still here 20 years later mostly due to my lust for closure. It's kind of like having an annoying piece of a popcorn kernel stuck in your teeth for two decades straight. It drives you mad! I take breaks from the case but make sure to check in once in a while.

Out of all of the 'evidence' against the WM3 the JM confessions are really the only alarming material to me. People like to say that their alibis aren't consistent--and it's true, I'll give them that--but after looking at everyone else's alibi/interview, NONE of them are very consistent.

There are so many holes everywhere. I think that's very revealing.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

You could drive a Mack truck through some of the holes! As I've said before, my "gut reaction" on seeing the first documentary was that the three teens were innocent. I've not seen or read anything since then to change my mind, and I've read and seen a lot! The JM "confession" doesn't trouble me because of my experience teaching those of JM's IQ. They'll say whatever they think the interrogator wants to hear. I've seen them admit to all sorts of outlandish things just to stop the questioning. I would have never believed it possible if I hadn't heard it myself! Yeah, their alibis might have holes, but they were teenagers at the time with absolutely no reason to remember specific details of May 5th until after the fact. Unlike JCB, for example, they had no interaction with the little boys. So, being teenagers, they had a few (minor) inconsistencies. However, there wasn't enough "evidence" to convict them (in a fair trial, that is) - and there certainly wasn't enough evidence to impose the DP, FFS!

 

[Graznik]

That makes three of us Except instead of mellowing out I've actually gotten more intense, in a way.

I'm still here 20 years later mostly due to my lust for closure. It's kind of like having an annoying piece of a popcorn kernel stuck in your teeth for two decades straight. It drives you mad! I take breaks from the case but make sure to check in once in a while.

Out of all of the 'evidence' against the WM3 the JM confessions are really the only alarming material to me. People like to say that their alibis aren't consistent--and it's true, I'll give them that--but after looking at everyone else's alibi/interview, NONE of them are very consistent.

There are so many holes everywhere. I think that's very revealing.

Hah, fair enough! At least I can give the middle finger to everyone who said it was "just a phase".

I'd find the "confessions" more alarming if they actually made sense but they just don't. They're just so outlandish! I can't even remember how many times he supposedly left the scene, only to continue his story as he was prompted. He can't even describe the area properly! Oh, I could go on forever and I'm sure everyone has heard it all before.
The alibis don't bother me either. Like CR said, they hade no reason to remember any specific details about that day - unlike others.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

I pinched this from Jivepuppi. http://www.jivepuppi.com/exhibit_b.html

On the morning of June 4th, 1993, Gail Grinnell, the mother of Jason Baldwin, spoke to Detective Ridge, demanding an explanation as to why her son was arrested. She stated Jason was at home at the time of the murders. Ridge said the police couldn't begin to investigate his alibi until Jason spoke to them (Jason had refused to make a statement without a lawyer). Grinnell was shown the confession of Jessie Misskelley.

Det. Ridge: Well it's like this. We've got a story that is very very believable. It is so close to perfect that we have to believe it. So until we can break that story apart and we can't even start to breaking it apart until Jason tells us something.

Gail Grinnell: There's so many different stories in that, in that story he [Misskelley] gave up I doubt anyone can believe it.

Det. Ridge: That's what I'm telling you. And it's believable.

Gail Grinnell: It's not believable to me because he's got too many different discrepancies in it.

Det. Ridge: You don't have the point of view we've got. We know what we looked at at the crime scene. It's very believable.

No comment!!

 

[thared33]

hoh:

 

[Graznik]

Hah, I've noticed that before CL! Ms. Grinnell got it right from the start.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Hah, I've noticed that before CL! Ms. Grinnell got it right from the start.

Yep, she didn't take long to figure it out did she ? Many are still having problems 24 years later. I honestly haven't looked at Jessie's statements more than twice, a few people have analysed them, I didn't want to waste my time because they were so ludicrous. When I have finished with Hobbs, I might take the time to look at them again, but TH deserves a lot more attention. Still waters run deep!!! Have a nice Christmas all of you sleuths!!!!

 

[ravenwitch]

Saying he left and then starting the story back up wne prompted is actually pretty common. Guilty people do this quite a bit. That being said, I know that mentally disabled people will often admit to almost anything. If they think you expect them to admit it, they will. Once it was in his head that people wanted him to say he was guilty, he would keep saying it. I don't think we can really consider his confessions to mean much at all.

 

[sloane7777]

Saying he left and then starting the story back up wne prompted is actually pretty common. Guilty people do this quite a bit. That being said, I know that mentally disabled people will often admit to almost anything. If they think you expect them to admit it, they will. Once it was in his head that people wanted him to say he was guilty, he would keep saying it. I don't think we can really consider his confessions to mean much at all.

my money is on TH! I agree with you 100% on your statement above!