Would JonBenet have survived if ...

[canny]

Would JonBenet have survived her serious head injury, had her parents called 911 and rushed her to the hospital, instead of doing whatever they did to cover it up ? Most probably her parents presumed she was dead with a broken neck . What are the Neurosurgeons view on this ?

 

[southcitymom]

Would JonBenet have survived her serious head injury, had her parents called 911 and rushed her to the hospital, instead of doing whatever they did to cover it up ? Most probably her parents presumed she was dead with a broken neck . What are the Neurosurgeons view on this ?

Everything I had read indicates that, if the blow to the head happened first, JBR would have never regained consciousness and could not have survived it.

 

[BloodshotEye]

The documents suggest that this fracture to the skull, resulted in some clotting of blood (not their exact words). I.e., there was not the expected volume of blood loss, that would be associated with this massive head injury.

Thus, it would appear that JBR was already dead (perhaps seconds or a minute or two), or dying. Blood flow to the vascularized tissue in the head, had already begun to stop or stopped.

Would JBR have survived this injury if it were the only injury she had? I am not a brain surgeon, but from the looks of this fracture - I don't believe so. I think there would have been such massive swelling of the brain, that you would not have been able to keep the brain inside the skull. People have survived massive head injuries, if they are able to have emergency surgery to temporarily remove parts of the skull, in an effort to relieve swelling. There was an incredible amount of damage.

Editing to say: This devistating blow to the head, after JBR was already dead, suggests to many that JBR was effectively "killed twice". i.e. over kill. An important fact to consider, when developing a profile.

 

[BBB167893]

Most of the pathologists consulted on the case think that the head blow not only came first, but that she might have lived for an hour afterwards.

Even if she did live, no idea what kind of damage it would have done.

 

[Bev]

by the medical experts is that the head injury would have resulted in death. In reading that autopsy, it's clear that the head injury was massive and extensive - both frontal lobes were bruised although the right more than the left, and the entire right hemisphere of the brain had bled. I wonder if she would have appeared to have had a massive stroke where the body becomes paralyzed and breathing is almost undetectable?

Hi SD! Hell of a dog and pony show this last few weeks, huh? I think we can conclude that there will never be a prosecution in this case, for anything, including obstruction of justice if you know what I mean...and I think you do
Bev

 

[gls]

Her body shut down as a protective mechanism against the shock of the injury. She was breathing and probably had a slight heartbeat.

The swelling was probably controlled with ice packs.

If she had been taken to the hospital she may have survived but she would have lived with some kind of brain damage for the rest of her life.

Just my opinion.

 

[BBB167893]

"Hi SD! Hell of a dog and pony show this last few weeks, huh?"

Sure was! I was actually hopeful for a while. But, the DA leads to a mirage. What a shock.

"I think we can conclude that there will never be a prosecution in this case, for anything, including obstruction of justice if you know what I mean...and I think you do"

I'm afraid I do.

 

[BloodshotEye]

This isn't the kind of swelling/bump on the head that a person could control with icepacks. It's massive. Swelling is such that you can't keep brain inside skull. It oozes out.

 

[Trino]

How would PR have initially reacted to JB's injury? How long would it take before she understood the extent of JB's injuries? It's unimaginable that anyone would not only allow their child to die, but then do more damage to the child. If the murder happened this way, IMO PR is the most despicable character ever. And, to think if she did this, she got away with it.

 

[Wrinkles]

Can anyone point me to that which an expert brain surgeon has said about the possibility of JBR having survived this head injury?

The human body is fairly incredible. Check out the story of Phineas Gage:
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/origins/phineas.html

(there are many other webpages describing/discussing the Gage story.)

It is obvious that Gage and JBR sustained their injuries in differing places. JBRs injury might have been far more deadly (or damaging), however, a massive blow to the head, given emergency treatment CAN often be recuperated from. Sure...people can lie in a coma for days, months or years. My own brother was in a coma for days, then in recovery from the head injury for months (formally) and years (informally.) Sure, there can be varying things lost as a result of a head injury, some which can be regained through therapy, some which are forever lost...BUT...I am very curious about that which a real head injury specialist has to say about JBRs injury.

What brain centers would have been affected by the blow, the subsequent bleeding and swelling? Would this have affected the part of the brain that tells the heart to pump? What has been seen in terms of a head injury similar to this?

We know that there was not a lot of bleeding into the brain after the injury. We also know that the garotte was placed while there was respiration and heart pumping...BUT was the garotte the most likely thing to take this child's life, or was an affect from the skull injury more likely to do so?

Does anyone have a link to a brain surgeon's thoughts on this?

W

 

[BBB167893]

Pretty awful, isn't it. Trino?

 

[Anita Richman]

Most of the pathologists consulted on the case think that the head blow not only came first, but that she might have lived for an hour afterwards.

Even if she did live, no idea what kind of damage it would have done.

I wonder what kind of parent Patsy Ramsey would have been for a possibly quadriplegic, severely brain damaged JonBenet.

 

[gaia]

I wonder what kind of parent Patsy Ramsey would have been for a possibly quadriplegic, severely brain damaged JonBenet.

YOU DO? I don't. Nope, I think Patsy would APPEAR to be loving and kind and hard-working to give her poor, quadriplegic child all the care and love in the world, but it would mostly be an act to garner SYMPATHY FOR HERSELF!!! :doh:

 

[dingo]

I think youre right Gaia....sadly Patsy was all about appearances

 

[kazzbar]

I think youre right Gaia....sadly Patsy was all about appearances

No way, Patsy would have looked after her as It would have been to much for her to cope with.Of this I have no doubt. IMO

 

[Deleted member 187229]

This isn't the kind of swelling/bump on the head that a person could control with icepacks. It's massive. Swelling is such that you can't keep brain inside skull. It oozes out.

I’ve read the full autopsy report and there’s no mention of brain swelling. The autopsy report says the 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Wouldn’t that suggest there was no brain swelling?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I’ve read the full autopsy report and there’s no mention of brain swelling. The autopsy report says the 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Wouldn’t that suggest there was no brain swelling?

This is the main issue I have with the oft-quoted 45 min to 2 hours time span. You don't have to be an expert to know that the kind of head wound JonBenet received would have caused a lot of bleeding - and if the skin was intact, a lot of swelling. In fact, the two opinions we have directly from the sources (Wecht and Dobersen) both say the headbash was "perimortem", at or close to death, and cite the miniscule amount of blood and swelling as the reason.

The time span, which both Beckner and Kolar cited, appears to originate with Dr Rorke, whose opinion we only have second hand. The description Kolar attributes to her, with a brain swelling so massively that it comes out of the skull, is indeed a good description of what would happen from a headbash like this - the problem is that this is not what the autopsy describes. Either Beckner and Kolar (who I suspect got this from Beckner) misunderstood what Rorke told them, or (as I suspect) the whole thing was complicated by the garrotte, which was applied simultaneously. Either way I would love to hear from Rorke directly.

 

[ChanceEncounterx]

I don't think so. Had she survived she would've had some major brain damage and likely behavioural issues in the future. Plus I believe the blow was fatal.

 

[Ponytale]

It has been stated (Beckner) that that the head blow would have eventually killed her, if she would not have received any medical help. Her body would have just started to slowly shut down due to brain damage. How long it would have taken her, we do not know.
I have read conflicting opinions on whether she would have survived or not when she would have received fast medical help soon after the blow. I also have read conflicting ideas whether she could have recovered completely or could have sustained a permanent brain damage of some degree. It seems that with that types of injuries there are so many factors - even a few millimeters could change so much in the outcome. I have read stories of people who have suffered similar head injuries (scull fracture and damage to the brain) and still recovered fully. With children the chances of recovery are presumably higher. But I also know of people (and one child) who have gotten a severe brain damage just by a freak accident, like falling of a bench, and that now are basically in a vegetative state - not able to eat, talk or walk by themselves anymore.

So all I understand is that if she would have received immediate help, there could be a possibility that she could have made a full recovery, possibly. But we know that she did not receive any help, so I tend to believe that even if she would have survived, she would have sustained a brain damage to some degree. How severe, we do not know.
But I can see Patsy not wanting to spend the rest of her life taking care of a child in a vegetative state. She was a person of image and reputation. So with no more chance to live her dreams through JonBenet, JB was already dead to her... IMO

 

[gumshoe1]

This is the main issue I have with the oft-quoted 45 min to 2 hours time span. You don't have to be an expert to know that the kind of head wound JonBenet received would have caused a lot of bleeding - and if the skin was intact, a lot of swelling. In fact, the two opinions we have directly from the sources (Wecht and Dobersen) both say the headbash was "perimortem", at or close to death, and cite the miniscule amount of blood and swelling as the reason.

The time span, which both Beckner and Kolar cited, appears to originate with Dr Rorke, whose opinion we only have second hand. The description Kolar attributes to her, with a brain swelling so massively that it comes out of the skull, is indeed a good description of what would happen from a headbash like this - the problem is that this is not what the autopsy describes. Either Beckner and Kolar (who I suspect got this from Beckner) misunderstood what Rorke told them, or (as I suspect) the whole thing was complicated by the garrotte, which was applied simultaneously. Either way I would love to hear from Rorke directly.

Who is Beckner? What is Beckner's connection to the JonBenet Ramsey case?

Who is Dobersen?