Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California, #3

[K_Z]

I hope you’ll humor me the length of this, but I’m still very puzzled as to why Nina would have borrowed Jonah’s car. Makes no sense to me since Dina firmly states she was sitting vigil at Max’s bedside. She wouldn’t need a car at all. I wonder, has Nina ever explained why Jonah’s car?


A couple of questions jump to mind. Can anyone comment?
1. Was Jonah at the hospital from 8pm (when he said he saw Dina) to 1am?
2. Jonah was spotted on surveillance video, was that at the hospital or RMH?
3. Dina insists she was alone by Max’s bed. During what time? If Jonah was there until 1am, he could easily vouch for Dina. If he wasn’t, where was he without his car?
4. Dina had no need for her car, why did Nina take Jonah’s car? It makes absolutely no sense that Nina would borrow Jonah's car instead of Dina's.
5. Those dang clothes in the guest house, they could be Rebecca’s but they could also be Dina or Nina’s. A simple check of size and style could help determine.
6. When is Nina confirmed to have returned home?

I agree with those that think Dina took off in a fit of anger. Nina had to scramble to try and find her. Mayhem follows and Rebecca is rendered unconscious. Adam is found to help with the aftermath. IMO, Jonah knows more than he is letting on.

Respectfully snipped.

I think it's very possible/ likely Dina took off from Rady in her own car, and parked at her summer home, and WALKED to Spreckles to confront Rebecca (hence the eye witness bicycle family who saw her at the front door with the big bag). I think Nina asked to borrow Jonah's car to go after Dina to calm her down or see what she was up to with Rebecca. My guess is they BOTH knew Dina was on the warpath, and headed to confront Rebecca. It makes sense to me Jonah would loan his car to Nina in that situation, while he stayed behind at Rady/ RMD.

If Nina drove back to Dina's place, upon seeing Dina's car parked AT Dina's summer home, and finding Dina not at home, she then DROVE over to Spreckles to look for Dina (not walked, in her new yoga pants and pink Coach wristlet). As screecher pointed out in another post, if Rebecca heard or saw Jonah's car pulling into the driveway, she would suspect nothing, and probably come out to meet him.

I'm glad that the mud on Rebecca's feet (plural) was addressed in the SAC, as opposed to "dust" from toe prints on the balcony.

 

[Betty P]

Thanks for the link to the SAC. As KZ states, its much clearer and detailed in linking the defendants to the evidence. Here are a couple of things that stand out to me.

1. The SAC still claims Adam took Ambien that night and thus didn't hear much of the attack. There's still no evidence that Adam took Ambien, no tests were conducted. Its just as likely he was awakened earlier.

2. The SAC verifies that the clothes RZ wore that day were not found at the crime scene., There had been arguments here in the past stating RZs clothes were at the mansion. They were not.

3. Its stated that there were no rope fibers found on Rebecca's hands. I know we've discussed this in years past, but its a fact worth repeating. How does someone tie themselves up with elaborate knots, but not have any rope fibers on their hands?

Just a few observations. Though some of the evidence was removed, its impossible to ignore what remained.

 

[*Lash*]

I agree this amendment is much stronger and detail oriented.

The missing clothes were described to better explain their relevance. The outling of the theft allegation was much more precise and again the relevance was better explained.

As well, I noted a new allegation in the amendment. The Zahau's are alleging the clothes SDSO found neatly folded on the bed were picked out and placed there by the defendants in an attempt to divert the investigation. The claim alleges the defendants staged the clothing attempting to replace the clothing Rebecca had been wearing that day. Clothing that likely had DNA evidence from one or more of the defendants. The logic was to distract the detectives from even looking for any missing clothes.

Page 10.

33. Defendants lastly set out to stage a suicide, and hide their involvement first by removing and later disposing of the various articles of clothing REBECCA was last seen wearing publicly on June 12, 2011, in an effort to conceal DNA evidence and evidence of having stripped REBECCA of her clothing, laying out clothing matching Zahau's size including a white undershirt, black long sleeve t-shirt and blue jeans in an effort to divert attention to her last known clothing in the inevitable investigation into REBECCA's death.

 

[K_Z]

Yes, I remember how I have always thought the placement of the clean clothes was odd-- the new, clean clothes set out on the bed for the next day. Presumably Rebecca was planning to sleep in the bed. Who lays out clean clothes for the next day on top of the covers for the bed they're going to sleep in? Even if you're in the habit of laying out fresh clothes for the next day, most people would hang them out, or put the folded items on a chair or bed table. Never made sense to me the clean clothes were set out on TOP of the bed at 10:30 at night, before she showered.

I've always wondered if the fresh clothes she was planning to bring to Jonah at the hospital the next morning were also set out somewhere in the bedroom?

I'm glad Rebecca's missing clothing she was wearing is now better discussed and connected in the SAC. The whole issue of "conversion" in relation to the clothing is very interesting from a legal viewpoint, IMO.

The other thing about Rebecca's clothing I find interesting is that presumably the blue long sleeved t-shirt wrapped around her neck and stuffed in her mouth was NOT a shirt she had been wearing earlier in the day. I wonder if it was clean, and removed from a drawer or closet? Or pulled out of a dirty laundry basket? Etc. Curious.

 

[screecher]

How many households keep latex gloves on hand? Did anyone staying at Spreckels need to use the gloves on a regular basis? As far as I know, Jonah, Rebecca, Maxie and the two half-siblings were all healthy. But yet, weren't latex gloves collected as evidence? There would be no reason for those latex gloves to be there in the mansion. Those gloves were brought in by someone, imo, Dina. This has been bugging me, now I have gotten it all off my chest lol.

Hmmm.....wonder if Rady has Dina on camera taking gloves.

 

[BBL]

Yes, I remember how I have always thought the placement of the clean clothes was odd-- the new, clean clothes set out on the bed for the next day. Presumably Rebecca was planning to sleep in the bed. Who lays out clean clothes for the next day on top of the covers for the bed they're going to sleep in? Even if you're in the habit of laying out fresh clothes for the next day, most people would hang them out, or put the folded items on a chair or bed table.

Respectfully snipped by me: I agree. And, take it a step further, people planning on committing suicide typically don't lay out what they are going to wear to bed, or the wear next day. It is either staged to distract, or Rebecca was laying out clothes that she planned to wear, but was murdered before that could happen. IMO.

 

[Betty P]

Respectfully snipped by me: I agree. And, take it a step further, people planning on committing suicide typically don't lay out what they are going to wear to bed, or the wear next day. It is either staged to distract, or Rebecca was laying out clothes that she planned to wear, but was murdered before that could happen. IMO.

This information and discussion about the missing clothes, gloves and other evidence in the Spreckels mansion reminds us again how none of this was examined, questioned or even discussed by SDSO in their investigation of Rebecca's death.

The words painted on the death room door were hidden from the public for months after the murder, not revealed until Ann Rule's book was published. The type of knot used to tie Rebecca's noose was never revealed or discussed, neither by the ME or SDSO.

It has always made me wonder how much more evidence was ignored or dismissed. We'll never know, since everything else was destroyed in the remodeling of the mansion.

 

[K_Z]

How many households keep latex gloves on hand? Did anyone staying at Spreckels need to use the gloves on a regular basis? As far as I know, Jonah, Rebecca, Maxie and the two half-siblings were all healthy. But yet, weren't latex gloves collected as evidence? There would be no reason for those latex gloves to be there in the mansion. Those gloves were brought in by someone, imo, Dina. This has been bugging me, now I have gotten it all off my chest lol.

Hmmm.....wonder if Rady has Dina on camera taking gloves.

I'm going to assume that the gloves taken into evidence were "real" latex gloves.

The most common source of "real" latex gloves, for at least 10+ years is home improvement stores, and stores with departments such as paint, hobby, and craft supplies.

Hospitals have not used latex gloves on a widespread basis for well over over 10- 15 years, due to the increasing incidence of latex allergies. Latex allergies are of particular concern in pediatric hospitals where repeated exposure of chronically ill kids to latex products can stimulate life threatening allergic responses by their immune systems.

So, for many years, the non- sterile gloves that are in box dispensers and the wall racks in patient rooms, treatment areas, clinic exam rooms, etc, are a substance such as nitrile. Many of these gloves are purple or mint green in color, to visually distinguish them from health care latex gloves, which are usually a beige color. Sterile latex gloves (one pair per package) are increasingly rare, or not available unless the provider makes a special request/ justification ahead of time, even in operating rooms.

So, my opinion is that it is unlikely that the latex gloves found at the scene of Rebecca's hanging were from Rady, or any other hospital or clinic. The far more likely source is a home improvement store, or hobby/ craft store, IMO.

I would like to know more about the gloves. What size were they? Was the brand or manufacturer determined? Were ther other similar gloves anywhere in the mansion? Were the gloves torn at all? Were the gloves found inside out, or right side out? That's significant, IMO. If your hands are at all sweaty (and every normal person sweats in latex gloves), it is extremely difficult to take them off right side out. Most strip them off inside out, and ball up the mess inside the glove. Either way, the gloves should be FULL of skin cells, sweat, and DNA.

Unless.......

It's not beyond possibility that the person who wore the gloves, "double gloved" (wore two pairs at once). Someone might do that to prevent DNA on the inside of a glove. We sometimes double glove during health care procedures for various reasons.

 

[IQuestion]

KZ...Your posts always make it easier for me to understand complex medical issues. A gift all great educators possess....the ability not only to teach others, but also to inspire their search for knowledge.
respectfully snipped from your post: Either way, the gloves should be FULL of skin cells, sweat, and DNA.
Unless.......
It's not beyond possibility that the person who wore the gloves, "double gloved" (wore two pairs at once). Someone might do that to prevent DNA on the inside of a glove. We sometimes double glove during health care procedures for various reasons.

"skin cells, sweat, and DNA??" Hmm, people "double glove" all the time in dental offices to avoid: blood, saliva, germs, disease transmission etc. There is a lot of that in the d-e-n-t-a-l world. I recall people gloving even to prepare sterile dental trays, lay out instruments, open intra oral xray packs, and mixing & loading product for dental impressions. Maybe someone with training or dental background?

 

[IQuestion]

It appears the post I was intending to quote has disappeared. Nonetheless, I do remember the gist of the question posed. A poster was wondering why (ONE, second not yet confirmed) there were not more reports of screams on the night Rebecca was attacked. There are a lot of possible reasons
1) Even if you thought you heard something, turned down the TV, shut off the fan, turned off the hairdryier, shower, or dishwasher and asked someone else, "Did you hear that?" There would be nothing left to hear....the 3 second scream was now over.
2) If the scream was high pitched, A WOMAN IS MORE LIKELY TO HEAR SOUNDS on the high end of the spectrum.
This is biological and gender based fact. (can't make it up, folks......"real science", that is) So if 5 people were close enough to hear a scream, and 40% actually heard the screams....it wouldn't surprise me if they were ALL female. Hearing also declines for men over age 45 faster than women...amazing, huh?
3) Even though Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson were brutally killed in the breezeway of a tightly packed condo community, and on a heavily trafficked street AT 10 O'CLOCK PM..... Do you know how many people reported hearing screams???? ONE! Isn't that amazing? Only one person said he heard a man yell, "Hey, hey, hey" (on the lower end of register) and the witness was an older gentleman who was absolutely sure it was from a man.
Go figure. You would think with all those people around, that more people would have heard the actual attack....but that was not the case.
Hearing only one abbreviated scream at the 1043 Ocean house doesn't seem odd or even unlikely. Rebecca not being found until the hours of first light, would also NOT HAVE OCCURRED if she had a dog with her. (another issue for later.)

 

[justice be served]

It appears the post I was intending to quote has disappeared. Nonetheless, I do remember the gist of the question posed. A poster was wondering why (ONE, second not yet confirmed) there were not more reports of screams on the night Rebecca was attacked. There are a lot of possible reasons
1) Even if you thought you heard something, turned down the TV, shut off the fan, turned off the hairdryier, shower, or dishwasher and asked someone else, "Did you hear that?" There would be nothing left to hear....the 3 second scream was now over.
2) If the scream was high pitched, A WOMAN IS MORE LIKELY TO HEAR SOUNDS on the high end of the spectrum.
This is biological and gender based fact. (can't make it up, folks......"real science", that is) So if 5 people were close enough to hear a scream, and 40% actually heard the screams....it wouldn't surprise me if they were ALL female. Hearing also declines for men over age 45 faster than women...amazing, huh?
3) Even though Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson were brutally killed in the breezeway of a tightly packed condo community, and on a heavily trafficked street AT 10 O'CLOCK PM..... Do you know how many people reported hearing screams???? ONE! Isn't that amazing? Only one person said he heard a man yell, "Hey, hey, hey" (on the lower end of register) and the witness was an older gentleman who was absolutely sure it was from a man.
Go figure. You would think with all those people around, that more people would have heard the actual attack....but that was not the case.
Hearing only one abbreviated scream at the 1043 Ocean house doesn't seem odd or even unlikely. Rebecca not being found until the hours of first light, would also NOT HAVE OCCURRED if she had a dog with her. (another issue for later.)

My answer to you just disappeared too. Anyway, that is a great parallel you made to neighbors hearing. A number of the neighbors to the S house also live in Az and IMO those people know more but don't want to be involved.

 

[IQuestion]

My answer to you just disappeared too. Anyway, that is a great parallel you made to neighbors hearing. A number of the neighbors to the S house also live in Az and IMO those people know more but don't want to be involved.

JUSTICEBESERVED, Wow, just wow. I didn't know about the neighbors being residents of both states. It must be incredibly difficult for them. I understand. If they did get involved, they would probably have posters making wild accusations about their motives, having relatives call and text after 10pm, make unannounced late call jaunts over to their house when they chose not to answer the phone and walk around to the side of their gate, look in their back yard (but not touch their gate, out of courtesy, huh?) And, BTW...Nina only does this because her sister requested answers.?????

(I wrote above, tongue-in-cheek, because suddenly the explanations of Nina Romano's Chan 8 interview rings annoyingly of strange motivations and lack of believability.) Sorry, but when one puts her actions/excuses/motivations in context of another family, she may have met only once or twice.....IT REALLY BEGINS TO SOUND LIKE SOME REALLY WEIRD, SELF-ENTITLED STALKING, HUH?

That is my opinion and I am always open to differing opinion and/or expanded thoughts....but only if you say it without hurting my feelings:blushing::blushing:

 

[K_Z]

A little OT, but a few more tidbits about latex gloves.

In the "old" days of healthcare, all latex gloves (sterile and unsterile) were powdered, to make them easier to slip on. Part of the increasing concerns about latex allergies are that the donning and doffing of powdered gloves produces a "poof" of airborne powder (cornstarch) to which latex molecules are attached. This is why some highly allergic people had reactions, even though they never came in contact with the gloves. (One place I worked we had a hand surgeon who had his own "clean" OR, because he developed a serious latex allergy. No latex gloves were allowed in that OR, so that there were no lingering airborne particles to stimulate allergic reactions.)

Anyway, fast forward after the "powder" days of latex gloves. Non-powdered latex gloves were developed, to reduce airborne allergic particles. But the cost for them went up substantially. That was just about the time nitrile began to predominate in health care.

BUT, latex powdered gloves still were, and are, cheap and easy to get in home improvement and craft supply retailers.

So, simple question. Were the gloves found at the scene powdered or not? Taking that a step further, were Rebecca's hands tested to determine if she wore the gloves? The gloves were tested, right-- and a mixed sample of DNA, very small amount, was found. (Right?) But her hands were not tested specifically to see if she was wearing both gloves. With that small of a sample (when one should expect a huge amount of skin cells and sweat), IMO, they should have tested both of her hands to see if she was wearing the gloves.

I don't know who (if anyone) was actually wearing those gloves, but I have always doubted it was Rebecca.

And it should not have been hard at all to determine if the gloves were medical grade, or industrial grade, as well as manufacturer, etc. And if there were any other matching gloves in the mansion. Or at Dina's home nearby. Or recently purchased by Dina, Nina, Adam-- or Rebecca or Jonah, or other teens?

The source of the gloves should have been explored and explained, IMO. Because only sterile gloves come in one pair packages-- every other available source for latex gloves are multiple glove packages. Only STERILE gloves are specifically right and left handed-- nonsterile gloves (medical and industrial) are ambidextrous. Were the 2 gloves ambidextrous, or specific left and right handed?

Nobody has just "one" pair of ambidextrous gloves around, unless the package is nearly empty.

Those 2 gloves, IMO, are part of another package of gloves that has never been identified as the source. I've always thought they were significant evidence, not fully investigated in the "confirmation bias" investigation that took place.

Edited to add:

Even just the size of the gloves is really significant, IMO. Rebecca was a very small, slight woman. If, for example, she had purchased the gloves for a project she was doing, one would think she would have purchased them to fit HER. Just by looking at her overall size, I'd estimate she was maybe a size 6 or 6 1/2 glove, or a "small" in ambidextrous gloves. All of the other major players in the case are much larger than RZ-- Jonah, Dina, Nina, and Adam (and probably Jonah's 2 teens). I'd estimate these people wear medium to extra large nonsterile ambidextrous gloves. So were the gloves small, or were they a size much bigger than Rebecca's hands? Just food for thought.

 

[IQuestion]

KZ As always your posts provide so much information! While it is a fact that killers have been known to wear gloves to avoid detection....Have you ever heard of a suicide victim wearing gloves to avoid having their fingerprints lifted by CSI's? Killers have been known to wipe down surfaces they may have touched, in order to avoid leaving evidence behind....but I have yet to uncover a single case in which a suicide victim wiped off surfaces to erase their finger prints prior to committing suicide!
Hopefully, the gloves are available for re-examination & testing in the WDS. No doubt your post will at least get them looking into the significance, origin, type and size.
Again, you are an amazing resource, thank you so much. IQ

 

[kittychi]

KZ As always your posts provide so much information! While it is a fact that killers have been known to wear gloves to avoid detection....Have you ever heard of a suicide victim wearing gloves to avoid having their fingerprints lifted by CSI's? Killers have been known to wipe down surfaces they may have touched, in order to avoid leaving evidence behind....but I have yet to uncover a single case in which a suicide victim wiped off surfaces to erase their finger prints prior to committing suicide!
Hopefully, the gloves are available for re-examination & testing in the WDS. No doubt your post will at least get them looking into the significance, origin, type and size.
Again, you are an amazing resource, thank you so much. IQ

CBBM: Excellent point, IQuestion.

During the investigation, you would think that someone would slap themselves on the forehead :facepalm: and say, "Wait, why would she bother putting gloves on if she was committing suicide? She got paint on other parts of her body, why would she want to protect her hands?" There would be no point, now, would there!

 

[LuckyLucy2]

Rebecca did not attempt to wipe down anything to remove her fingerprints. Her fingerprints are all over the scene and prove that she was the murderer that killed herself that evening. As an artist, she was likely in the habit of putting on gloves when she painted, but that night, in her frenzy to commit her dramatic suicide, she decided to forego the gloves - or just forgot to put them on, since she did leave fingerprints on the door she painted with her bizarre message to Jonah. The Zahaus will have a uphill battle to try and use the gloves as evidence since there is nothing that links them to anyone other than Rebecca Zahau.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

173 05/27/2015 Demurrer / Motion to Strike scheduled for 02/19/2016 at 01:30:00 PM at Central in C-69 Katherine Bacal.

172 05/27/2015 Demurrer / Motion to Strike scheduled for 02/19/2016 at 01:30:00 PM at Central in C-69 Katherine Bacal.

 

[justice be served]

173 05/27/2015 Demurrer / Motion to Strike scheduled for 02/19/2016 at 01:30:00 PM at Central in C-69 Katherine Bacal.

172 05/27/2015 Demurrer / Motion to Strike scheduled for 02/19/2016 at 01:30:00 PM at Central in C-69 Katherine Bacal.

Both of these are scheduled for February of next year. Not exactly tomorrow. Much will happen in those 8 months in discovery for the Zahaus to learn much more through depositions, witness testimony, etc. They're only getting warmed up IMO.

 

[IQuestion]

Rebecca did not attempt to wipe down anything to remove her fingerprints. Her fingerprints are all over the scene and prove that she was the murderer that killed herself that evening. As an artist, she was likely in the habit of putting on gloves when she painted, but that night, in her frenzy to commit her dramatic suicide, she decided to forego the gloves - or just forgot to put them on, since she did leave fingerprints on the door she painted with her bizarre message to Jonah. The Zahaus will have a uphill battle to try and use the gloves as evidence since there is nothing that links them to anyone other than Rebecca Zahau.

LuckyLucy2 (bbm & colorized):
I have provided links to several artists painting and NONE of them put on gloves, whether the medium is watercolor, tempura, acrylic or oil. I could have attached a hundred links and again NONE of the artists put on gloves. So, I have a difficult time accepting your statement, "likely in the habit. of putting on gloves when she painted." And, an even more difficult time accepting the words "in her frenzy to commit her dramatic suicide." Can you explain why you feel "FRENZY" is a word that could possibly describe the act of suicide? Frenzy defined as "a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behavior."???? While I agree there might have been a "frenzy" of activity occurring on the night of Rebecca's death, I would not attach that word to her activities, but INSTEAD to the people who harmed Rebecca because they thought she had hurt Max. Now, I would apply the word F-R-E-N-Z-Y to several statements made later: 1)I wanted to talk to her. 2) I sent her a text. 3)I called her. 4)She didn't respond, so I walked over to her location around 10pm. 5)I knocked on the door. 6)I rang the doorbell. 7)I looked through the glass at the front door and the house looked dark.
8) I walked around the side of the house. 9) I looked through the gate. 10) I looked up at the window with light on. 11) I think she knew more than she was saying.
That is a lot of effort, put into activity that could have been accomplished the following morning, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, huh? And, a lot safer for a woman all alone. What was the "hurry"?
And, if Rebecca was in a "frenzy"....did she suddenly stop her frenzied state to "fold her clothes" and lay them out on the bed? And also, in this "frenzied" state, managed to cut multiple lengths of rope, leaving no fibers on her hands?
So far, the only time I have ever read about frenzied behavior (associated with individuals named in the WDS) are documented police reports, 1) wife threw herself in front of his car, 2)tried to choke him, 3) and broke his finger.

[video=youtube;D-1dJaRwIaw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-1dJaRwIaw[/video]

I am going to openly and courteously disagree with your assumptions and suppositions. IQ
ps...I tried to attach links to 4 add'l videos, but thread allows for only one at a time.

 

[kittychi]

Excellent post, IQuestion, thank you!

:goodpost: