Wrongful Death Suit filed Nov. 13, 2013 in California

[time]

Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in 72% of convictions overturned through DNA testing.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

So, who do you think was on the mansion porch late that night?

 

[LuckyLucy2]

So, who do you think was on the mansion porch late that night?

Rebecca. That is IF the witness actually saw someone, which I have my doubts about. The story sounds very fishy-or should I say possumy- to me.

I really question his story about stopping to see a dead possum. No way would Coronado let a dead possum stay in the road in front of the Spreckels Mansion. And if there WAS one, it would have been picked up the next day and the city would have a record of that. The SDSO did not find the witness credible, so maybe they checked those records. If not, I bet Dina's attorneys will.

If he did see someone, 'wearing a dark coat' in July, IIRC, I would say it was Rebecca in her bathrobe. All he would have been able to make out is the dark hair, and she would have looked much larger in a big robe. But I am not convinced he saw anyone.

 

[quesarita]

Rebecca being described as 185 pounds is a MUCH bigger discrepancy IMO. From pictures of her standing next to other average height appearing people, I'd say Dina Shacknai is closer to 5'-6" to 5'-8". 6' - no way. IMO.

 

[elfie]

Rebecca's stories DID change, and it really doesn't mattert what Dina believed. What matters is DNA and forensic evidence. Of which the Zahaus have none.

The man who claims he saw Dina said the person was 5' 5". Dina is said to be 6' tall. BIG discrepancy. He said the woman weighed 185 pounds. IMO, Dina weighs no more than 140. BIG discrepancy.

Guess the Zahaus lawyers will do their best to make the family 10 million off this tragedy, but they'd better have some REAL physical evidence. So far, they have nothing.

Exactly where is Dina said to be 6'? I've never seen that information anywhere.

 

[bourne]

Rebecca. That is IF the witness actually saw someone, which I have my doubts about. The story sounds very fishy-or should I say possumy- to me.

I really question his story about stopping to see a dead possum. No way would Coronado let a dead possum stay in the road in front of the Spreckels Mansion. And if there WAS one, it would have been picked up the next day and the city would have a record of that. The SDSO did not find the witness credible, so maybe they checked those records. If not, I bet Dina's attorneys will.

If he did see someone, 'wearing a dark coat' in July, IIRC, I would say it was Rebecca in her bathrobe. All he would have been able to make out is the dark hair, and she would have looked much larger in a big robe. But I am not convinced he saw anyone.

BBM. Where did you get this info -- "wearing a dark coat"?

No. In no way shape or form would a tiny frame Rebecca at 5'1" at 100 lbs. ever resemble the large frame Dina at 5'7". Watch Dina's videos on MSM or refer to party pics of Dina and Nina on websleuth and compare to Rebecca's petite frame.

 

[K_Z]

"He was going by and saw somebody with a large, black bag trying to get in the front door and looking around and going to the back of the house," Bremner said. "She was 40 to 50 years, 5'5", 170 to 190 lbs., long dark hair; wearing a black and white striped short sleeve shirt," said Bremner.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

Nothing about a dark coat, or bathrobe here. The witness is apparently quite specific about who and what he saw, the large, black bag, and the black and white short sleeve shirt. His description doesn't resemble Nina, or Rebecca. And he saw pics of Dina on TV, and clearly said she was the one he saw. And he also gave more detail on what this person was doing-- I believe Ann Rule has more details in her book. The person caught his eye because her actions were so strange and suspicious.

I'm looking forward to this witness, and hopefully his wife, also, being called for depositions and/ or testimony.

Lol, maybe they can testify to the existence of the dead possum that was there that night, too! Maybe it wasn't a possum at all! Maybe it was a SKUNK! Or a SQUIRREL!

(I also have to say I think its very amusing to imagine a city like Coronado keeping detailed records for years on end about dead critters that may or may not have been picked up! That makes me LOL!)

 

[Ausgirl]

"What matters is DNA and forensic evidence" -- wrong. A very small amount of research will show that in fact circumstantial evidence plays a massive role in many homicide investigations which go on to secure convictions. Many cases are prosecuted successfully with NO dna at all.

Where DNA is truly important is in excluding certain suspects. Not, obviously, those whose dna would be all over the house by default.

Or where, say, dna is found on the murder weapon or inside a rape victim. Even then, it doesn't automatically mean 'guilty'. The jury's beliefs about the *circumstances* under which the dna came to be there are what puts people away.

Hence, I believe there is a chance of the Zahau lawyers presenting some very good circumstantial evidence, which very well could lead to somebody being seen as culpable for Rebecca's death -- by a jury. Because (hopefully) one would expect the jury to have fully functioning eyes, ears and faculties of reason, and therefore the ability to see what plainly does not make sense about the suicide finding. To start with.

 

[K_Z]

Is it known exactly when the family that was renting the apartment over the garage departed?

 

[ontheclock]

Glad you brought that up K_Z. Why does nobody discuss this party? Fine, if we can deem them useless to the discussion, otherwise...

 

[Inparadise]

I was told that they departed (suddenly) on that Monday afternoon or early Tuesday.

 

[K_Z]

Thank you, Inparadise. So they were gone, quite suddenly. That's something that people in the inner circle of Shacknais and Romanos probably knew.

And when exactly did Dina's boyfriend/ houseguest leave town? The one who finally answered the door after many hours of the police trying to contact Dina about Max's fall? He is potentially a witness to be called, as well.

The one whose daughter posted on social media that she was aware that Max was not expected to live? I wonder who she might have received that information from? I think it's possible she heard it from her Dad. And I think it's possible he heard it from Dina. Anyone remember exactly when that was posted? (No links or names, please-- just the date/ time posted, if known.)

It all goes to when Dina "knew" Max was not going to live, and her holding Rebecca responsible. I think ultimately there is going to be a lot of different sources that will confirm that Dina and Jonah were being told Max would almost certainly not live, as early as Monday afternoon/ evening. The first radiographic (MRI) evidence of the high spinal cord injury would have been evident within 2-12 hours post injury, as well. Plus, he had sustained a half hour or so of traumatic asystole. And we know he had decorticate posturing and bilaterally blown pupils as early as the Coronado Sharp ED. None of the docs would have been painting a rosy picture for the parents. All of this goes to revenge motive, IMO.

 

[LuckyLucy2]

It does not matter when the doctor told the Shacknais that Max might not live. Not at all. Not when Rebecca Zahau had so much motive for her suiciide.

Motive, along with DNA, fingerprints, her footprints on the balcony, copying the movie The Housemaid (even down to putting her hair UNDER the noose), her own journal entries, XZ's text to Rebecca after she hung herself (It wasn't your fault!), the searches on her computer when only she had access to it, boarding her dog, sending her sister home so quickly, her being "quiet" during the dinner with Jonah and Adam, the last texts she sent to Mary, and the cold reply that Mary sends back, the writing on the door matches hers...I'm sure there's more...oh, did I mention the DNA, fingerprints, and footprints on the balcony?

I do not believe the Niles family was there in July. From what I understand, they left before Jonah arrives for the summer.

 

[Ausgirl]

It does not matter when the doctor told the Shacknais that Max might not live. Not at all. Not when Rebecca Zahau had so much motive for her suiciide.

Motive,

This is highly arguable, and many good arguments can be made against it. It could equally be said, with exactly the same amount of proof, that she had motive to *live*.

It all really does matter, because it goes to the possible content of that last text from Jonah to Rebecca (which was both mysteriously "late to arrive" and mysteriously deleted and therefore unavailable as evidence - what a bunch of misfortune to happen to a single, incredibly important text) as well as motive to have Rebecca killed, and even the time necessary to plan such a thing.

along with DNA,

see point re "gloves"

fingerprints,

see point re "gloves" ..

There were gloves present at the scene. One black latex glove, just kinda lying around, and two black leather ones. ALL of which had "mixed" DNA on them, somehow. Though we are not told whether the "mixed" DNA was ON them or (inexplicably!) IN them, nor is it clear whether any of the gloves' interiors were tested at all. Why would there be "mixed" DNA inside ANY of them, rather than a clear and *singular* sample of the person who wore them?

In any case --- there were gloves.

her footprints on the balcony,

.. along with others.

copying the movie The Housemaid (even down to putting her hair UNDER the noose),

Please link where this is noted as factual on any document. I'd like to see the source document, or at least reference to it. So far, it seems rather mythical.

her own journal entries,

.. which don't mention suicide.

XZ's text to Rebecca after she hung herself (It wasn't your fault!),

.. proving what? That her sister did not blame Rebecca for Max's death. The end.

the searches on her computer when only she had access to it,

WRONG. (and I've demonstrated why, on the other thread. I'd be happy to discuss it over there if you like).

boarding her dog,

I'd probably do the same. Lots of folks of would, in such chaos.

sending her sister home so quickly,

Again, I fail to see how this indicated intent to commit suicide and nothing else.

her being "quiet" during the dinner with Jonah and Adam,

Which proves what? That she did not feel like being a chatty Kathy when a child lay gravely injured. This does not indicate intent to commit suicide and nothing else.

the last texts she sent to Mary,

and the cold reply that Mary sends back,

Some could interpret it that way. Some do not. In any case, it does not prove intent to commit suicide.

the writing on the door matches hers...

No, it does not.

I'm sure there's more...oh, did I mention the DNA, fingerprints, and footprints on the balcony?.

Yes, you did. Over and over, though some of those points are very clearly wrong, and most are at best highly equivocal.

 

[kittychi]

To Ausgirl:

:goodpost:

 

[K_Z]

One of the things I keep coming back to is that this is a civil lawsuit, not a criminal trial. That means the jury (and hopefully this survives long enough to make it in front of a jury) is charged with determining "a preponderance of the evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt." And the only thing at stake is money. (And the collateral damage to one's reputation and psychological state for being found responsible for someone's wrongful death.)

At least one of the named defendants, Dina, has a reputation for being quite wealthy from her divorce settlement, one defendant, Nina, does not appear to have a great deal of wealth, and Adam has a rather ordinary occupation (tugboat operator), with a very wealthy brother-- who is not named in the lawsuit, but will undoubtedly be a witness.

So one of the questions you have to ask yourself is, who in this cast of characters stands to lose the most? Who wants this out of the media the most? How hard will the defendants push to settle all of this before it sees a court room? IMO, the one who likely wants this to go away the most is Jonah-- not one of the defendants. So then it becomes interesting to contemplate how that might shake out, or what Jonah might do if he wants this to conclude quickly.

Of course, there will be multiple requests by the attorneys of the defendants to dismiss the case-- the first of which we will probably see after the first depositions.

But the really interesting thing to think about is how the public has reacted over the past 3 years to the finding of suicide. Overwhelmingly, people don't buy it. The vast, vast majority of people who have weighed in all over the web since the story broke, don't buy it. And the jury will come from the general public. Only a very, very tiny amount of people--a handful, really, have felt strongly enough about the suicide finding to chase around posting their support on comment boards. I think that shows pretty clearly how a jury might see the situation, too.

IMO, the public is not evenly divided over the possibilities of murder vs suicide. IMO, an overwhelming number of the public feel the circumstances more strongly support murder, than suicide. And while Kim Schumann is arguably a really great lawyer (Dina's attorney), that's a big hurdle to overcome if this case survives to be put in front of a jury. IMO.

 

[Zinn]

Thank you, Inparadise. So they were gone, quite suddenly. That's something that people in the inner circle of Shacknais and Romanos probably knew.

And when exactly did Dina's boyfriend/ houseguest leave town? The one who finally answered the door after many hours of the police trying to contact Dina about Max's fall? He is potentially a witness to be called, as well.

The one whose daughter posted on social media that she was aware that Max was not expected to live? I wonder who she might have received that information from? I think it's possible she heard it from her Dad. And I think it's possible he heard it from Dina. Anyone remember exactly when that was posted? (No links or names, please-- just the date/ time posted, if known.)

It all goes to when Dina "knew" Max was not going to live, and her holding Rebecca responsible. I think ultimately there is going to be a lot of different sources that will confirm that Dina and Jonah were being told Max would almost certainly not live, as early as Monday afternoon/ evening. The first radiographic (MRI) evidence of the high spinal cord injury would have been evident within 2-12 hours post injury, as well. Plus, he had sustained a half hour or so of traumatic asystole. And we know he had decorticate posturing and bilaterally blown pupils as early as the Coronado Sharp ED. None of the docs would have been painting a rosy picture for the parents. All of this goes to revenge motive, IMO.

BBM.

Monday, 7/11. 8:31pm.

 

[*Lash*]

To Ausgirl:

:goodpost:

I second...Thank you Ausgirl for a great post!

 

[inthedark14]

Rebecca. That is IF the witness actually saw someone, which I have my doubts about. The story sounds very fishy-or should I say possumy- to me.

I really question his story about stopping to see a dead possum. No way would Coronado let a dead possum stay in the road in front of the Spreckels Mansion. And if there WAS one, it would have been picked up the next day and the city would have a record of that. The SDSO did not find the witness credible, so maybe they checked those records. If not, I bet Dina's attorneys will.

If he did see someone, 'wearing a dark coat' in July, IIRC, I would say it was Rebecca in her bathrobe. All he would have been able to make out is the dark hair, and she would have looked much larger in a big robe. But I am not convinced he saw anyone.

"Seeing as we're twins, I could totally understand how somebody could mistake me at 10 o'clock at night in the dark for my sister," said Romano. "And that makes sense. We have the same body type. She's thinner than I am but we have the same broad shoulders. We're fraternal twins so I get how he could make that mistake. But it was 100% a mistake."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

So even though NR stated in her interview that it must have been her that was seen, not DS, in your opinion it was RZ?

It's really a ridiculous argument, RZ was not anywhere near the height or size of either of the sisters. IMVHO.

ALWAYS MOO

 

[K_Z]

BBM.

Monday, 7/11. 8:31pm.

Wow! Thank you, Zinn, for finding that!

Now isn't that interesting? that's only 9 hours after Max's accident.

But even more significant, it's only about 4 hours after Dina arrived at the hospital.

A jury is sure to find that very interesting as to state of mind and motive for revenge, IMO. Four hours. And Rebecca would only be alive for another day, at that point in time. Mere hours.

I just don't think anyone is going to be able to make a credible, persuasive argument to a jury that Rebecca knew Max was going to die 40 hours after the accident, but Dina, the child's own mother, wasn't told until after Rebecca's death, later in the week.

Remember Dinas's re-telling of those hours in the Phoenix Magazine article?

Dina says she got the news at the hospital. “Jonah was sobbing. He said ‘Rebecca killed herself,’” Dina recalls. “I didn’t know what to say. I was like, ‘I’m so sorry.’ My next thought was ‘Why would she do that? Max is going to be fine.’ I still believed he would be OK.”

As Dina was leaving the hospital, a Coronado police detective paid her a visit. “Are you aware what happened?” he asked.

“Yes, it’s awful,” Dina answered. Later, at her home, two more detectives asked Dina what she thought about Rebecca’s death. She was in a hurry to return to the hospital to view the results of Max’s MRI. “They said something like ‘Is this related to what happened to Max?’” she recalls. “And my first thought was: ‘What are you suggesting? That somebody hurt Max on purpose? That somebody harmed Rebecca?’… They were intimating [foul play].”

When Dina returned to the hospital, Max’s neurologists delivered crushing news: The MRI revealed extensive damage to his basal ganglia, the brain structure associated with motor function.

http://www.phoenixmag.com/Valley-News/boy-interrupted.html

The detectives weren't just intimating foul play. And they weren't intimating that Max was a victim of foul play, IMO. They were clearly investigating Dina for a revenge motive for killing Rebecca, or knowing who did, IMO.

IMO, those police detectives, several of them, according to this, could also be called as witnesses, by either side. After all, they interviewed Dina personally in the hours after Rebecca's death. Their reports will also be available as evidence. I wonder which side will call them?

And we should also remember, Dina is the one who states she asked Nina to go and "talk to" (confront, IMO) Rebecca:

So I asked Nina to go talk to Rebecca. Beg her on your hands and knees, if you have to. Ask her if there’s anything, anything, that might help Max.

So many very interesting details from this case. IMO, Kim Schumann will need to do everything in his power, every bit of lawyering and maneuvering he can do, to keep Dina off the stand, and not in front of a jury. While I do think a jury would be very, very sympathetic to her wrenching loss, it won't be much of a stretch, IMO, for a jury to see a grief/ revenge motive here.

 

[Ausgirl]

I just don't think anyone is going to be able to make a credible, persuasive argument to a jury that Rebecca knew Max was going to die 40 hours after the accident, but Dina, the child's own mother, wasn't told until after Rebecca's death, later in the week.

This is an incredibly good point.