Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[Mica]

And weren't the neighbor's kids climbing on their roofs :blushing:to take a look as well? I don't have a link but I seem to remember something like that.

It was beyond inexcusable.

Why wasn’t the scene protected and secured?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Why wasn’t the scene protected and secured?

Why indeed.

 

[Mica]

Why indeed.

Coverup

 

[inthedark14]

I remember something along those lines as well. So let's pretend for a moment there was no ME available in all of SoCal for 12 hours. LE didn't have a tent? They couldn't just fashion something using a tarp and some stakes in the ground? Indefensible behavior, imo, and it certainly seemed a deliberate attempt to degrade evidence.

This alone...so disgusting and indefensible. When SDSO put out their decision, this complete lack of respect for a human life was glossed over and made to not matter. Puke! I am very interested to see how the ME defends himself and his state paid department. Gross negligence just in how her poor body was treated ... to say nothing of a highly questionable autopsy.

Is the taking of the throat a normal part of removal of organs? Can someone with medical knowledge chime in on that? When I think "organ bloc" I think heart, lungs, kidneys , and such things mid body, not the throat. TIA

ALWAYS MOO

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[scaredtopost]

inviting people from the street to join them looking at Rebecca's naked corpse.

RSBM- That is disgusting and every person on that property during those twelve hours should be ashamed of not intervening. I find the adament claims of suicide to be strikingly bizarre. As a strictly unbiased 3rd party living on the other side of the country, I have no emotional attachment or inside knowledge of RZ's death. How anyone could conceive a person (male/female/stable/unstable/Christian/Aethist) committed suicide in that manner, is far beyond my realm of comprehension. Me think some doth protest too much... I hope justice is finally served and may she rest in peace. I hope her family members are taking care of themselves as they endure this nightmare. And, I hope great things are in store for Mr. Greer. He's an amazing attorney and merciful man. He knew the powers he was up against, but continues to persevere under pressure.
JMO MOO etc

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[peedoffinny]

I can't predict right now what I'd do first/second/third, however, I think I would most definitely have that first image of a dead, nude woman hanging from a balcony burned into my memory for all eternity. He seems fuzzy even on that. And then I think I would try to quickly process what to do first, and I'd be thinking so hard about it that the order in which I did things would also be burned into my memory because of the processing I needed to do.

I don't know for sure, because as they say, you never know what you'll do in any given (horrendous) situation, but I would think certain memories would be easily accessible, like I said, for eternity.

Back in November my husband fell off a roof when I ran out he was unconscious and blood was pouring out into the driveway. I was hysterical and screaming and trying to hold his head while we're waiting for the ambulance. To make a long story short my brother talked about how my husband's eyes were open and shaking and I did not recall that until he mentioned it. Then once he mentioned it it's stuck in my brain and I couldn't get it out. So not everyone handles tragedies and remembers them as well as some people may think. Jmo.

 

[peedoffinny]

I can't predict right now what I'd do first/second/third, however, I think I would most definitely have that first image of a dead, nude woman hanging from a balcony burned into my memory for all eternity. He seems fuzzy even on that. And then I think I would try to quickly process what to do first, and I'd be thinking so hard about it that the order in which I did things would also be burned into my memory because of the processing I needed to do.

I don't know for sure, because as they say, you never know what you'll do in any given (horrendous) situation, but I would think certain memories would be easily accessible, like I said, for eternity.

Back in November my husband fell off a roof when I ran out he was unconscious and blood was pouring out into the driveway. I was hysterical and screaming and trying to hold his head while we're waiting for the ambulance. To make a long story short my brother talked about how my husband's eyes were open and shaking and I did not recall that until you mentioned it. Then once he mentioned it it's stuck in my brain and I couldn't get it out. So not everyone handles tragedies and remembers them as well as some people may think. Jmo.

 

[Verboten]

Back in November my husband fell off a roof when I ran out he was unconscious and blood was pouring out into the driveway. I was hysterical and screaming and trying to hold his head while we're waiting for the ambulance. To make a long story short my brother talked about how my husband's eyes were open and shaking and I did not recall that until you mentioned it. Then once he mentioned it it's stuck in my brain and I couldn't get it out. So not everyone handles tragedies and remembers them as well as some people may think. Jmo.

RSBM- That is disgusting and every person on that property during those twelve hours should be ashamed of not intervening. I find the adament claims of suicide to be strikingly bizarre. As a strictly unbiased 3rd party living on the other side of the country, I have no emotional attachment or inside knowledge of RZ's death. How anyone could conceive a person (male/female/stable/unstable/Christian/Aethist) committed suicide in that manner, is far beyond my realm of comprehension. Me think some doth protest too much... I hope justice is finally served and may she rest in peace. I hope her family members are taking care of themselves as they endure this nightmare. And, I hope great things are in store for Mr. Greer. He's an amazing attorney and merciful man. He knew the powers he was up against, but continues to persevere under pressure.
JMO MOO etc

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Agree: Me think some doth protest too much. There really was never any reason to suspect suicide other than Jonah and Adam said. This is clear cut murder. I hope the family gets justice and I hope great things are in store for Mr. Greer. I agree that he's an amazing attorney and a merciful man. What a blessing for the family to have found him. <3

 

[Lezah]

Yes, sadly there was a group of teenage boys up on the roof top deck of a house a few doors down from Spreckels, laughing, drinking and inviting people from the street to join them looking at Rebecca's naked corpse. They, and their parents should be ashamed.

This is absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Inparadise]

BBM-

Good point!

Their father passed away Sept 2016, Mom in 1999, easy to find online.

Interesting, Jonah was “deeply superstitious”?

BBM Snip-

This is absolutely disgraceful.

I woke up that morning hearing helicopters, but didn’t think much about it. My husband and I frequently walk along the beach, as we did that day, and we saw many San Diego Sheriff vehicles, Coronado PD vehicles, all the local news media vehicles.........there was a group of young teenage boys on the rooftop deck a couple doors down from Spreckels. They seemed to be in very festive mood, and called to my husband and I to come up and join the party to look at the corpse. I knew that the house was owned by a family from Paradise Valley AZ as a vacation home. I know their name, but will not disclose it. The parents of these young men should be very ashamed of their children........but having lived in Paradise Valley, AZ, I doubt they are/were.

 

[MsFacetious]

Yes, sadly there was a group of teenage boys up on the roof top deck of a house a few doors down from Spreckels, laughing, drinking and inviting people from the street to join them looking at Rebecca's naked corpse. They, and their parents should be ashamed.

I woke up that morning hearing helicopters, but didn’t think much about it. My husband and I frequently walk along the beach, as we did that day, and we saw many San Diego Sheriff vehicles, Coronado PD vehicles, all the local news media vehicles.........there was a group of young teenage boys on the rooftop deck a couple doors down from Spreckels. They seemed to be in very festive mood, and called to my husband and I to come up and join the party to look at the corpse. I knew that the house was owned by a family from Paradise Valley AZ as a vacation home. I know their name, but will not disclose it. The parents of these young men should be very ashamed of their children........but having lived in Paradise Valley, AZ, I doubt they are/were.

I'd be a bit more concerned about their mental health than being ashamed if they were my kids. Sounds like a sociopath/psychopath in the making. I only watched on TV and I was horrified. Do keep tabs on those kids and don't be surprised if they end up with their own thread here. :twocents:

 

[Verboten]

Still hoping the Caitlin Rother podcast is going to be posted today... I've been really looking forward to a thorough recap of the week in court.

 

[Lilibet]

I'd be a bit more concerned about their mental health than being ashamed if they were my kids. Sounds like a sociopath/psychopath in the making. I only watched on TV and I was horrified. Do keep tabs on those kids and don't be surprised if they end up with their own thread here. :twocents:

Yes, I would definitely keep an eye on any kids who would revel in seeing a naked corpse. Kids in a group with a ring leader can be idiots, but something&#8217;s missing....they didn&#8217;t get the compassion and courage to stick up for what is right cards in their deck. What&#8217;s the excuse of every single LEO, adult males or females, who didn&#8217;t take steps to treat Rebecca&#8217;s body with respect that day. What excuse did they give to their mate watching on TV or their buddies on the softball team, or their neighbors, or to the Zahaus. Could not one of them do the right thing? Was there an assumption so soon that it was a naked suicide so that RZ wanted to be seen by the public? I hope Mr Greer will hold their feet to the fire on this.

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,

Here is the latest interview with Caitlin Rother. She paints a very tense picture of what is going on in the courtroom.

https://soundcloud.com/tricia-arrington-griffith/caitlin-rother-32318

 

[coastal]

Thank you, Tricia! Thank you, Caitlin!

Since I'm up, I typed out a few notes from your interview:

*Civil attorneys don&#8217;t usually try murder cases.
In this case, there is no &#8220;state&#8221;, so Mr. Greer is &#8220;prosecuting&#8221; the case for the plaintiffs. This means that witnesses who would normally testify for the prosecution, such as evidence techs and detectives, are testifying on the side of the defense. Everything is upside-down.

According to the evidence tech, sunlight degrades DNA.

Re: Jonah&#8217;s testimony &#8211; he was unexpectedly soft-spoken. The Judge had to keep telling him to speak up. He would turn to speak to the jury, making it even harder to hear what he said.

Caitlin doesn&#8217;t think Jonah blamed Rebecca for Max&#8217;s fall. Later, he said &#8220;she only gave a few breaths&#8221;.

When Jonah told Dina that Rebecca killed herself, she asked him, why would she do that? Jonah said, &#8220;Asian honor&#8221;, and made the motion of stabbing himself in the stomach. Jonah denied this. (*Is the rape with the steak knife a metaphor for &#8220;Asian honor&#8221;?!?)

The forensic document examiner was paid 10,000.00 to say he couldn&#8217;t do a comparison between the examples he was given.

The guest house was not secured until 10:00 am. Search warrants were not secured until 6:30 pm.

Some of the Judge&#8217;s comments on the motion to dismiss, in support of plaintiffs case:

911 call. I got a girl, hung herself in the guest house&#8221;. Rebecca was found hanging from the main house.
Eyewitness testimony places Adam at the scene. Adam admits he was there.
Front door and kitchen door were unlocked.
Adam admits to loosening the ropes on Rebecca&#8217;s wrists, but none of his DNA was found there.

There is much more I didn't catch, so do listen for yourselves.

Goodnight, all!

 

[Tortoise]

It's been pointed out that Rebecca was hogtied. I don't think anyone has put 2 and 2 together yet - this means it can only be Adam that killed her!

For her body to be fixed in rigor in the position on the grass it was, she had to have been still hogtied when Adam found her. Or her legs would have hung down straight.

If her legs were straight the two ropes on her hands and feet would not meet at the distance of the hogtie position she was still in.

Adam had to have cut that rope apart. His hiding that material fact of her being hogtied and him cutting it means it has to have been him.

My question for the medical examiner would be what would make a person's body hang in the position she is seen lying on the grass. It has to have been a restriction that caused her not to hang straight. The rope length when matched with the physical measurement between hands and feet cannot be a coincidence, meaning she must have been fixed in rigor in that position.

 

[Tortoise]

I've sent an email to Keith Greer because unless I'm mistaken this is not just a probable cause / preponderance of the evidence 51%, or a feather on the scales, it's a slam dunk from where I'm sitting.

PS I'm not sure if he will read his emails before tomorrow, if anyone has a faster way of reaching him I would appreciate it as I think he needs to get this into evidence by putting it to the medical examiner tomorrow.

ETA - It is also proof that in a hogtie she could not have walked, hopped, or committed suicide.

 

[Verboten]

Thanks, Coastal, for the summary of the podcast. I can round out the list of what they stated regarding the judge's notes. The judge rejected nonsuit dismissal for wrongful death and battery, with the following notes:

&#8212;Front door & kitchen door unlocked
&#8212;Guesthouse not secured for 3 hours
&#8212;Search warrant not served until 6:30pm
&#8212;While the knots are simple, picking the right knot is important
&#8212;Women&#8217;s underwear found in guesthouse
&#8212;911: Adam says, "I got a girl hung herself in guesthouse&#8221;
&#8212;Eyewitnesses (emergency responders, etc) connect Adam to scene & he places himself there.
&#8212;AS acknowledged he loosened rope to take Rebecca's pulse, but his DNA not on rope

Also, Caitlin wonders aloud if plaintiff can call rebuttal witnesses in civil trial. Yes, they can:
http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/lawsuits-and-disputes/litigation/civil-trial-process.htm According to this, plaintiff also gets a rebuttal closing statement (ie: the last word!).

I was very surprised that in this almost 1 hour discussion, it is not mentioned that Greer did a wonderful job at impugning witness Jonah S. by showing that he both changed his story regarding Rebecca's association with knot tying from the time of his deposition and also made implications that didn't line up with the realities. Jonah said he'd never seen her tie anything but her shoelaces in his deposition, but now has added she ties up his boat. Not only is that a change in story, but it turns out there are ZERO knots involved in securing the boat, which Greer had shown by way of live demonstration from Jonah himself. Greer then went picture by picture with every knot binding Rebecca, asking if he'd ever seen her tie a knot like this one? No. Like this one? No. I felt this was hugely significant, but not mentioned in Caitlin's wrap up.

With regards to the outline of DNA witnesses this week, I have the following questions that I hope will be focused on by Greer with rebuttal witnesses, if they were not already handled in cross:
1. Witnesses are said to have testified that Adam's DNA is specifically EXCLUDED on all key items at the scene. For years, LE has stated there was NO other DNA at scene or DNA with samples too small. Those samples were soooo small that no DNA was collected from other POIs (Dina, Nina, Jonah) because it would be futile. How do you specifically EXCLUDE Adam on non existent or too small to be tested DNA...???
2. LE used lack of other DNA as a rationale for their suicide determination, but their own experts state over and over many reasons someone might not leave behind DNA--non-shedder, specific surfaces, just washed hands. This seems a contradiction to me, are they not right there making the strong case that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Thus, zero basis to conclude suicide due to DNA evidence...

Hope Greer has or will introduce the underwear in the guesthouse and point out the "in the guesthouse" 911 comment, per judge's interest in these items as bolstering plaintiff's case. I think he's gotten to all the other points she made, meaning he can bring them into his closing argument.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It's been pointed out that Rebecca was hogtied. I don't think anyone has put 2 and 2 together yet - this means it can only be Adam that killed her!

For her body to be fixed in rigor in the position on the grass it was, she had to have been still hogtied when Adam found her. Or her legs would have hung down straight.

If her legs were straight the two ropes on her hands and feet would not meet at the distance of the hogtie position she was still in.

Adam had to have cut that rope apart. His hiding that material fact of her being hogtied and him cutting it means it has to have been him.

My question for the medical examiner would be what would make a person's body hang in the position she is seen lying on the grass. It has to have been a restriction that caused her not to hang straight. The rope length when matched with the physical measurement between hands and feet cannot be a coincidence, meaning she must have been fixed in rigor in that position.

I have not followed this case is closely as most of you guys have. My question, because I have not seen it on the threads is .... was there testimony that the lividity Matched the way she was laying on the ground. As a juror I would want to know that for a fact. if it did not match up in any way, that would be all bets were off as far as even considering that that was the way she fell when she died.

 

[Verboten]

I've sent an email to Keith Greer because unless I'm mistaken this is not just a probable cause / preponderance of the evidence 51%, or a feather on the scales, it's a slam dunk from where I'm sitting.

PS I'm not sure if he will read his emails before tomorrow, if anyone has a faster way of reaching him I would appreciate it as I think he needs to get this into evidence by putting it to the medical examiner tomorrow.

ETA - It is also proof that in a hogtie she could not have walked, hopped, or committed suicide.

I think it's an excellent point & extremely important question for M.E.!!!! I'm so glad you emailed Keith Greer, because I do think it's important it be on his list, if it's not already. I've heard some mention of being able to "break" rigor in early stages, but it still makes no sense for her knees to be bent in that fashion. I don't think it's possible to break rigor to CAUSE her knees to bend when they were not already bent and see no reason that would be done. I agree, I think based on Adam's testimony, her legs should have been straight when she was laid out on the ground.