Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[Imp]

time stamp 41:10
https://soundcloud.com/tricia-arrington-griffith/caitlin-rother-32318

The details are discussed in this interview....

Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death Trial with Websleuths and Caitlin Rother- 6 days ago
Timestamp 31:48
https://soundcloud.com/tricia-arrington-griffith/caitlin-rother-32318/recommended

Thank you. The OP wasn't specific about which interview between WS and Rother it was, so I assumed it was the most recent interview since it just came up today.

 

[Imp]

Yes, the call is strange in MANY aspects. Yes, you would at minimum say, my brother's gf" or something. In fact, Adam calls RZ what is practically a term of endearment, Becca, now during the trial -- seven years after her death. But during the call, when his connection to her would have been fresher and more immediate, he calls her a "girl" and NEVER ONCE says her name at all, even when he yells, "Are you alive?" It wasn't, "Rebecca? Are you alive?" etc. And, good point that he says "girl" when she is a grown woman. There is another part while he's doing a bunch of stuff in the background where he says, "ing KID." At first I didn't get it, but apparently he was referring to Rebecca. He shows no respect for the victim and distances himself from her.

I also found some of what he said in the polygraph interview, IIRC, along the lines of having to remove the gag from her "f__king mouth" and some other reference to her "f__king" something or other to be very ... I don't even have the words for it.

 

[Imp]

BBM.

Yes, agree with all of what you say. I view the entire call as a distancing effort -- she is some girl, not my brother's girlfriend-- it seems like an attempt to say he had no connection at all to her and therefore no motive. JMO.

Distancing ... yep!

 

[Lezah]

Bingo. Great point, Tortoise. Another inconsistency.

Gosh...I missed that! Your right!!!

 

[Lezah]

Shakespearean? My two sons: the crowned, and the avenger.

Ah, yes! Perhaps in this case “False face must hide what false heart doth know...” would be apt...

 

[justice be served]

Justice be Served:


- Defense testimony from those who tried to impugn her character. Rebecca, and only Rebecca, can give her true life story. Very prejudicial to not have a dead woman give her own story about ex-relationships, etc. Don’t buy any of it and that goes for the religious aspect as well.”

How can a dead woman give her story? She can’t. All the jury can ever hear is how her actions etc impacted those testifying. The people in her life have a right to tell their “stories.” Particularly in a setting like this, where a man is accused of her murder. Some make her sound artificially saintlike...others make her sound unstable. A person can be all those things to different people.

Claims are made that her husband was “violent.” But yet living with a serial adulterer is emotionally devastating. Claims are made that she wouldn’t kill herself because she was “religious.”But she did not live a life with strict adherence to the very tenets of her religion.

Does any of this mean she was not murdered? Of course not. But the jury should hear everything...and that means EVERYTHING. RZ has fine representation. The majority point of view here is being heard.

But justice requires the jury to hear AS point of view too. Anything negative to the plaintiffs position is not a smear. It’s a vital part of obtaining justice.

And certainly on a discussion board, discussion of all aspects of testimony and evidence should be able to be discussed. Odd that the kidnapping question struck such a nerve.

Would you, kindly, post by "Reply With Quote" as, otherwise, the narrative becomes mired by who is saying what. I hope that makes sense. It is important to not co-mingle posters's thoughts as it is important to attribute each poster to their statements. Thank you.

 

[justice be served]

The problem with this case is that there is a debate as to who is “the victim.” If RZ committed suicide that is a tragedy but she is not Adam’s “victim.” There are no “suicide victims.” Part of deciding what happened here...because the authorities ruled this a suicide...is a necessary examination of her life and her state of mind. That’s why that testimony is being allowed. That’s why the “mistakes” in her life are being entered into evidence, and yes, allowed to be discussed here.

Whether suicide or murder, her death is a tragedy and her family deserve their day in court. But so does the Shacknai family. The Zahau family has made numerous TV appearances telling their side of the story, and their side of the story has blamed and shamed various members of the Shacknai family. They were doing what they felt they needed to do.

Adam’s lawyers have the same right to defend him by examining every aspect and flaw in Rebecca’s character.

BBM. The victim is dead. It's not really hard to discern that.

 

[justice be served]

My guess is that, since polygraph is not typically admissible in court, the questions/interview prior to the polygraph is considered part & parcel of the polygraph, so none of it is allowed. I'd love confirmation, but seems to be the case. Typically, though, outside of the poly, we'd have videos with investigators interviews. Those interviews would ask similar open-ended questions and would elicit similar inconsistent responses (I think it's fair to say based on how he was speaking that morning). Those would be allowed in court. If they don't exist, I'd really like to know why. His words that morning are absolute indication of his involvement.

I do hope the David and Goliath situation here is evident to the jury. It's truly a travesty that we even have to be here now, instead of LE just appropriately doing their jobs in the first place.

BBM. Thank you for this explanation!

 

[Lezah]

BBM. Well, let me tell you, the Shacknai defense is a well-oiled machine with unlimited $ and lawyers. All the Zahau family has is one pro bono lawyer and those of us that see the truth. But then it is your "right" to also add your weight to the well-oiled machine which you are doing remarkably well. It's probably not necessary, though,
IMO because the Zahaus have had a long and heavy struggle now and for the last 7 years and it just continues on for them to fight the hard fight. But each to their own and whatever you can live with is your prerogative. That is what we call our justice system.

You are so right here! IMO though, the jury are well aware of the ‘funding’ disparity between the plaintiff and the defense’ representation. When AS was testifying, the first two rows of seats on the right side were full of what seemed to be legal assistants and lawyers. Every time Webb asked for something, three of them stood up... two sat down, up, down ...running to get papers, files or whatever. It looked a bit like that game where the moles (or gophers ?) all pop up out of the ground and you bonk them on the head with a mallet.

Meanwhile Mr Greer’s computer wouldn’t work for a picture on the screen and he was under his desk having a go at re-attaching his cable. But Greer does it with good grace, and a smile...and it’s VERY clear he is on his own. There isn't anyone there who doesn’t know Greer is alone and working his off, and that AS has a village serving him. I also think the jury really do like Greer.

The highly visible ‘over representation’ isn’t doing the defense any favors IMO....

 

[Imp]

You are so right here! IMO though, the jury are well aware of the ‘funding’ disparity between the plaintiff and the defense’ representation. When AS was testifying, the first two rows of seats on the right side were full of what seemed to be legal assistants and lawyers. Every time Webb asked for something, three of them stood up... two sat down, up, down ...running to get papers, files or whatever. It looked a bit like that game where the moles (or gophers ?) all pop up out of the ground and you bonk them on the head with a mallet.

Meanwhile Mr Greer’s computer wouldn’t work for a picture on the screen and he was under his desk having a go at re-attaching his cable. But Greer does it with good grace, and a smile...and it’s VERY clear he is on his own. There isn't anyone there who doesn’t know Greer is alone and working his off, and that AS has a village serving him. I also think the jury really do like Greer.

The highly visible ‘over representation’ isn’t doing the defense any favors IMO....

Good to hear, Lezah (and I love the way you describe things ... LOL!). I think Mr. Greer is definitely not the stereotypical slick courtroom attorney, which is in our favor. He's a genuinely nice man doing this case for the right reasons, and it sounds like that's coming across to the jury.

 

[minorone]

Whether suicide or murder, her death is a tragedy and her family deserve their day in court. But so does the Shacknai family. The Zahau family has made numerous TV appearances telling their side of the story, and their side of the story has blamed and shamed various members of the Shacknai family. They were doing what they felt they needed to do.

Adam’s lawyers have the same right to defend him by examining every aspect and flaw in Rebecca’s character.

Can you give examples of how the various members of the Shacknai family have been shamed?

What I have seen from the Zahau family is that they feel the police dropped the ball and really messed up with the way they selectively neglected & collected evidence & did not brother to collect evidence from most areas of the mansion. Police did not properly protect the crime scene or the evidence. Police procedures at the crime scene were ignored and not followed where they strongly suspected murder.

Gore:
"We fully expected to find many fingerprints in this house because, simply stated, it is a house. Anyone living in or visiting a residence can leave behind fingerprints, which is why we had to focus on items directly related to the event."

“Fingerprints, DNA, and other items left behind in other areas of the mansion have limited value in proving or disproving a crime."

 

[Brit]

The David and Goliath situation may unfortunately be negated to the jury by the high profile TV campaign. I understand the family felt is necessary but it makes it seem like they had big media guns in their corner.

Sorry to disagree.

What good did these “Big media guns” do?
Did they get LE to properly investigate this case? NO
Did it get LE to keep the Zahau family updated and maybe talk to her family and friends to find out more about her? NO
Did it get them a criminal case? NO

All it got them was a wrongful death case (that took them almost 7 years to finally get) which has sunk them in a Huge hole of debt that they will likely never be able to climb out of and if they win the suit they won’t get much money from AS insurance. (According to Greer on tricia’s Podcast ie the go fund me)
With just the hope that this case will be reopened. I think anyone of us would use any help we could get if we were in their shoes. And I think any jury would also see it this way.

 

[Verboten]

You are so right here! IMO though, the jury are well aware of the ‘funding’ disparity between the plaintiff and the defense’ representation. When AS was testifying, the first two rows of seats on the right side were full of what seemed to be legal assistants and lawyers. Every time Webb asked for something, three of them stood up... two sat down, up, down ...running to get papers, files or whatever. It looked a bit like that game where the moles (or gophers ?) all pop up out of the ground and you bonk them on the head with a mallet.

Meanwhile Mr Greer’s computer wouldn’t work for a picture on the screen and he was under his desk having a go at re-attaching his cable. But Greer does it with good grace, and a smile...and it’s VERY clear he is on his own. There isn't anyone there who doesn’t know Greer is alone and working his off, and that AS has a village serving him. I also think the jury really do like Greer.

The highly visible ‘over representation’ isn’t doing the defense any favors IMO....

Great to hear, Lezah. Greer truly is an authentic and genuine man doing this for the right reasons, and yes he is working his butt off. I'm so glad you sense this is coming across to the jury. <3

 

[Imp]

Sorry to disagree.

What good did these &#8220;Big media guns&#8221; do?
Did they get LE to properly investigate this case? NO
Did it get LE to keep the Zahau family updated and maybe talk to her family and friends to find out more about her? NO
Did it get them a criminal case? NO

All it got them was a wrongful death case (that took them almost 7 years to finally get) which has sunk them in a Huge hole of debt that they will likely never be able to climb out of and if they win the suit they won&#8217;t get much money from AS insurance. (According to Greer on tricia&#8217;s Podcast ie the go fund me)
With just the hope that this case will be reopened. I think anyone of us would use any help we could get if we were in their shoes. And I think any jury would also see it this way.

Sadly, all the things you list are what make the Zahau haters absolutely gleeful. Never in a million years will I understand it.

 

[Verboten]

Here it is:

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Betty -- Thank you so much! Very helpful to have the link and be able to review this again. BTW, previously I only looked at the list of the items seized. This time I read the whole document. It states, based on the state of the body, it was most likely a homicide and it also states Adam cut the body down then called 911. Hmmmm.... (Sounds like AS did make that statement to more than just the polygrapher)

 

[K_Z]

You are so right here! IMO though, the jury are well aware of the ‘funding’ disparity between the plaintiff and the defense’ representation. When AS was testifying, the first two rows of seats on the right side were full of what seemed to be legal assistants and lawyers. Every time Webb asked for something, three of them stood up... two sat down, up, down ...running to get papers, files or whatever. It looked a bit like that game where the moles (or gophers ?) all pop up out of the ground and you bonk them on the head with a mallet.

Meanwhile Mr Greer’s computer wouldn’t work for a picture on the screen and he was under his desk having a go at re-attaching his cable. But Greer does it with good grace, and a smile...and it’s VERY clear he is on his own. There isn't anyone there who doesn’t know Greer is alone and working his off, and that AS has a village serving him. I also think the jury really do like Greer.

The highly visible ‘over representation’ isn’t doing the defense any favors IMO....

BBM. Omg-- Lezah, I'm laughing so hard at the "whack a mole" visual! Thank you so much for your candid insights! You're a gem! :loveyou:

:judge::giggle:

 

[Betty P]

The problem with this case is that there is a debate as to who is &#8220;the victim.&#8221; If RZ committed suicide that is a tragedy but she is not Adam&#8217;s &#8220;victim.&#8221; There are no &#8220;suicide victims.&#8221; Part of deciding what happened here...because the authorities ruled this a suicide...is a necessary examination of her life and her state of mind. That&#8217;s why that testimony is being allowed. That&#8217;s why the &#8220;mistakes&#8221; in her life are being entered into evidence, and yes, allowed to be discussed here.

Whether suicide or murder, her death is a tragedy and her family deserve their day in court. But so does the Shacknai family. The Zahau family has made numerous TV appearances telling their side of the story, and their side of the story has blamed and shamed various members of the Shacknai family. They were doing what they felt they needed to do.

Adam&#8217;s lawyers have the same right to defend him by examining every aspect and flaw in Rebecca&#8217;s character.

The problem with your argument is that it's pretty obvious that Rebecca was murdered. The preponderance of the evidence shows she didn't commit suicide and LE ran a flawed investigation to cover up her murder.

Trying to pretend that Rebecca deserved to die isn't going to win over jurors or save the reputations of those involved. The motives behind the Rebecca bashing are fairly obvious to anyone observing the trial.

 

[coastal]

Asking about the kidnapping testimony sure brought a lot of tense responses...which is strange. The good thing is that everyone can listen to that podcast and decide for themselves on a wide variety of issues.

The majority of posters here do an excellent job of presenting the plaintiffs version of the case. It’s also valuable to balance that with perspectives from other viewpoints. The podcast is one excellent source.

Finally, I found the posts where this "kidnapping" was previously discussed. If you are still interested in reading those, you can find them in the "Evidence revealed during course of wrongful death suit" thread of this forum.

 

[Lezah]

BBM. Omg-- Lezah, I'm laughing so hard at the "whack a mole" visual! Thank you so much for your candid insights! You're a gem! :loveyou:

:judge::giggle:

A little jest in a lot of heartache can only help soothe the soul eh...glad it made you smile &#10084;&#65039;

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

That is called victim blaming and shaming. Rebecca made mistakes in her life & is not perfect. If we are going to discuss religious hypocrisy – without question the biggest hypocrites are a lot of the organized sects of religion and the people who associate themselves with them. Nothing in the Christian Bible expressly prohibits suicide. In fact, the Bible does not condemn it and there are people in the bible who committed suicide. There is nothing about Rebecca’s behaviour that would indicate she was suicidal and, if she was, nothing in this case suggests to me that this was suicide.

The kidnapping incident has nothing to do with this case. Often abuse is psychological and not physical. Having witnessed many relationships where the controlling behaviour is evident. I have had friends over for an evening, and someone’s husband will be calling continually. Domestic violence is a leading factor in psychological problems and disorders.

Re the shop lifting charge. I was at Home Depot one day and walked out of the store holding an item that I had not paid for in my hand. I got to my car and realized that I had walked out of the store & not paid for it. I went back in the store and told the clerk what I had done & how embarrassed I was. She advised me that they realize that people make mistakes & management has given them authority to give discounts to people who come back in and pay for the item. The only excuse I have for forgetting to pay for it, was I really busy and thinking about the other things I had to get done that day.

Perhaps I am not understanding this correctly, but I do not understand why asking a question about Rebecca’s kidnapping is considered to be “victim blaming”. I cannot get my mind wrapped around that at all. Could someone please explain this?

To ask for more information about Rebecca’s kidnapping was simply to gather more information for interest’s sake, not to impugn Rebecca AT ALL.

I feel so badly for all she has had to endure in her young life, and hearing a smidgen about her kidnapping just made me think “My goodness, yet another horrific, perhaps terrifying thing that Rebecca had to cope with” so my curiosity wanted to hear the whole story.

I see now from other members’ remarks that Rebecca’s kidnapping is irrelevant to the trial because apparently is was her ex-boyfriend who kidnapped her, and he has been totally cleared.

So, yes, it is apparently now irrelevant to the trial. But not irrelevant to WS members who want to understand the full story of the kidnapping.

But simply asking for further information about the event for interest’s sake should definitely not be considered to be “victim blaming” or “victim shaming.” Or frowned upon. Not at all, IMHO.

MOO


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