Teresa Larson
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That's interesting info Birdie. I didn't know that happened. Those poor people sure went through a lot of tough times.
WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #3
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danmanhatter
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There is a Vera Cruz in AL, OH and PA. I don't know of any historical reference to Vera Cruz, FL. Also of interest was a Vere post office (1837-1950) in Lincoln County (WV) about 70 miles away - near Tango, WV.
The following info was checked out by authorities and found to not be credible, but I'll go more into that later. I think we should still check it out while being somewhat skeptical.
In July 1951, private investigators Wyly and Carter went to Cortez and interviewed Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. He was the bridge tender operating the draw the night of Alma's drowning. They were quoted as saying that the Cipriani family living there had 5 or 6 children, the oldest an 18-year-old girl in college. They were positive they had seen Jennie Irene Sodder and also thought the children had visited before the fire. They knew about the telegram Frank Cipriani received after the fire, and the PI's said that it seemed he took exceptional pains to let the telegram be seen around there. They questioned several other people, and there seemed to be a hesitation to talk about this family. The Ciprianis also had a little boy living with them according to the Bennetts and their little granddaughter. The trucks and drag line were busy all the time, so they seemed to be making money. No WV licenses were seen around the place.
Granddaughter and her mom would know more than I, but I don't think the Sodder family had visited Cortez before the fire. I wonder if it might have been other cousins or friends visiting. I'd like to find out if the Bennetts' granddaughter is still living, and talk to her if she is. I'll email the lady I've been talking to in Cortez to try to find out.
I'll post more info later.
In July 1951, private investigators Wyly and Carter went to Cortez and interviewed Mr. and Mrs. Bennett. He was the bridge tender operating the draw the night of Alma's drowning. They were quoted as saying that the Cipriani family living there had 5 or 6 children, the oldest an 18-year-old girl in college. They were positive they had seen Jennie Irene Sodder and also thought the children had visited before the fire. They knew about the telegram Frank Cipriani received after the fire, and the PI's said that it seemed he took exceptional pains to let the telegram be seen around there. They questioned several other people, and there seemed to be a hesitation to talk about this family. The Ciprianis also had a little boy living with them according to the Bennetts and their little granddaughter. The trucks and drag line were busy all the time, so they seemed to be making money. No WV licenses were seen around the place.
Granddaughter and her mom would know more than I, but I don't think the Sodder family had visited Cortez before the fire. I wonder if it might have been other cousins or friends visiting. I'd like to find out if the Bennetts' granddaughter is still living, and talk to her if she is. I'll email the lady I've been talking to in Cortez to try to find out.
I'll post more info later.
On this same trip, the PI's also said that when they got to Cortez, they located the Cipriani property which consisted of a pure oil gas station and several cabins, and they also had a drag line and several trucks. Jimmy Cipriani (Mrs. Sodder's other brother) was there then, and he and Frank were in business together operating the drag line and trucks. They spoke to Mr. and Mrs. W.J. Evers who owned the tavern across the street, and they said that Frank had a sister drown on the bridge just before the fire in Fayetteville, which from reports in the State Attorney's office shows that it was accidental. A week or two after the tragedy, Frank came into the tavern with a telegram in his hand about the fire, and he told them he was going up there, as his family seemed to be doomed since his sister's whole family burned up. He left and was gone about 2 weeks before he returned. He never came back to the tavern, so they hadn't talked to him about it since.
There are obvious discrepencies in the timeline since the fire was 3 yrs before the drowning, but it might have been that after Alma's death, he was really upset about both family tragedies and came in with the telegram to talk about his grief from both. They may have assumed that the fire had just happened. He apparently did not go back to WV after the fire, but he did go back with Alma's body after her death, so I figure that was when he was gone 2 weeks.
There are obvious discrepencies in the timeline since the fire was 3 yrs before the drowning, but it might have been that after Alma's death, he was really upset about both family tragedies and came in with the telegram to talk about his grief from both. They may have assumed that the fire had just happened. He apparently did not go back to WV after the fire, but he did go back with Alma's body after her death, so I figure that was when he was gone 2 weeks.
The_Woof
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Birdie, I want you to keep posting too! I'm hooked - I don't know how much of a sluth I am, but you are AMAZING.
I had a thought about Vera Cruz. Could it be a town that was incorperated into a bigger city? I live in an area of my town that the locals all know as Pine Tree and if you ask where I live, that's what I'd say. However, Pine Tree was incorperated in to the bigger city and doesn't exist on a map as a town any more. Just a thought.
I had a thought about Vera Cruz. Could it be a town that was incorperated into a bigger city? I live in an area of my town that the locals all know as Pine Tree and if you ask where I live, that's what I'd say. However, Pine Tree was incorperated in to the bigger city and doesn't exist on a map as a town any more. Just a thought.
Angels_Not_Forgotten
Anxiously Awaiting a WINNING NFL Season!
I am hooked as well. I have read every bit of the info in the three threads and now my eyes are crossed! it is a very interesting case, and because of what I have read, I don't believe the children parished in the fire.
However, that being said...Sicne the oldest two have never tried to get back to their family, and because of their age, maybe they were killed shortly after the fire...
The picture that Mr. Sodder saw of the ballett class...it say's introducing 2 new students or something like that, does anyone know if there is a way to get the enrollment list for that year to the school mentioned in Mr Sodders letter? If so, researching the names (very tedious but helpful) could prove fruitful, as someone (betty/betty lookalike) may have a picture or information posted somewhere...Will post more later, been up all night reading the threads, now must sleep!!
However, that being said...Sicne the oldest two have never tried to get back to their family, and because of their age, maybe they were killed shortly after the fire...
The picture that Mr. Sodder saw of the ballett class...it say's introducing 2 new students or something like that, does anyone know if there is a way to get the enrollment list for that year to the school mentioned in Mr Sodders letter? If so, researching the names (very tedious but helpful) could prove fruitful, as someone (betty/betty lookalike) may have a picture or information posted somewhere...Will post more later, been up all night reading the threads, now must sleep!!
I'm sorry I've left you all hanging. I was really busy last week and out of town over the weekend, but I just got back, and I promise I'll post the rest of the info I got over the next couple of days. Here's a little more.
In Sept, 1951, Mr. Raper from the State Fire Marshal's office got in touch with C.R. Cobb, Arson Investigator. He said that Simmons, the investigator-in-charge with the WV Merchant Police came to his office about the Sodder case. Simmons said that he had info that the children had been or still were in the custody of Mrs. Sodder's sister at Vera Cruz, Fl. Through a detective firm in Tampa, he was trying to investigate and find the children, but it seemed that his info or funds were exhausted without any results.
Raper talked about how Mr. Sodder had had so much expense from hiring people and agencies to investigate the case, and how so many in law enforcement had thoroughly investigated it without finding any evidence that the children didn't die in the fire. He said the PIs did declare from time to time that they have certain info regarding their whereabouts.
He then asked for the proper procedure of law be put into effect to make all the PIs hired by Mr. Sodder to produce all their papers in the case so that any info in them could be investigated without further expense to Mr. Sodder. If the children then or were ever with Mrs. Sodder's sister or anyone else in Vera Cruz, that fact could probably be established through LE there without further cost.
I'll post the rest of the info I have soon. Welcome to all of you who are new to this case or to posting here. It's great to see fresh life in the case and the sub-forum.
Woof, that's a good point about Vera Cruz. You may be right. If it still exists with that name but it is a suburb of a larger city, I'm surprised I didn't find it with Google, but that doesn't prove anything for sure.
When Raper mentioned the possibility of the children still living with Mrs. Sodder's sister, I'm not sure whether he was unaware of Alma's death in '48 or was referring to another sister.
In Sept, 1951, Mr. Raper from the State Fire Marshal's office got in touch with C.R. Cobb, Arson Investigator. He said that Simmons, the investigator-in-charge with the WV Merchant Police came to his office about the Sodder case. Simmons said that he had info that the children had been or still were in the custody of Mrs. Sodder's sister at Vera Cruz, Fl. Through a detective firm in Tampa, he was trying to investigate and find the children, but it seemed that his info or funds were exhausted without any results.
Raper talked about how Mr. Sodder had had so much expense from hiring people and agencies to investigate the case, and how so many in law enforcement had thoroughly investigated it without finding any evidence that the children didn't die in the fire. He said the PIs did declare from time to time that they have certain info regarding their whereabouts.
He then asked for the proper procedure of law be put into effect to make all the PIs hired by Mr. Sodder to produce all their papers in the case so that any info in them could be investigated without further expense to Mr. Sodder. If the children then or were ever with Mrs. Sodder's sister or anyone else in Vera Cruz, that fact could probably be established through LE there without further cost.
I'll post the rest of the info I have soon. Welcome to all of you who are new to this case or to posting here. It's great to see fresh life in the case and the sub-forum.
Woof, that's a good point about Vera Cruz. You may be right. If it still exists with that name but it is a suburb of a larger city, I'm surprised I didn't find it with Google, but that doesn't prove anything for sure.
When Raper mentioned the possibility of the children still living with Mrs. Sodder's sister, I'm not sure whether he was unaware of Alma's death in '48 or was referring to another sister.
Keep going, Birdie. You've really come up with some very interesting information. How do you do it?
I've been hooked on this case since I first heard about it as a teenager. Didn't think there was more to be learned until you came along.
I've been hooked on this case since I first heard about it as a teenager. Didn't think there was more to be learned until you came along.
Thank you so much, but you are too kind. The new info isn't coming from work I've done, but from that of people I've met lately. Let's hope it leads somewhere. I know the authorities followed up on it all back then, so I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but at least we have some new avenues to explore... at least new to us.
The_Woof
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Birdie, I had a little time to research Vera Cruz. I couldn't find a current neighborhood, but I only looked for a little while. Fla has A LOT of history, LOL. I did find a Vera Cruz condo development in the area of the cortez bridge. No idea how old it is. Ther is also Vero Beach....
In Dec. 1951 a letter was written to Ernest Culbreath, Chief Deputy Sheriff of Hillsborough County in Tampa, FL. I'm not sure who wrote it, but I'm guessing it was Arson Investigator Cobb since there was later correspondence between the two of them. It was definitely someone from LE in WV. The letter refers a lot to someone nicknamed "Heinie", but I'm not sure who that was either.
He said that he wrote to "Heinie" a month before after Mr. Raper had talked to "Heinie" about 5 children alleged to have been moved to Cortez, FL after their home burned. He (I don't know whether this "he" is Heinie or Raper) has correspondence between Joe Carter of Tampa and Troy Simmons of Charleston, WV concerning these children which is self-explanatory.
Since writing "Heinie", another operator, O.D. "Dave" Fisher entered the case here (in WV). He reported that Mr. Barnette, County Commissioner of Cortez, FL, said he definitely saw the Sodder children in Cortez after the date of the fire.
The letter then said the question has arisen from time to time as to whether the children perished in the flames or were kidnapped. There is also a question concerning the parts of bodies found in the debris. He then listed the childrens' names and ages at the time of the fire.
It then said "shady and incompetent private detectives have from time to time advanced theories, manufactured evidence, etc., which has resulted in causing the parents much anxiety and takes every cent they earn, day by day.
"Our office, the State Police, and County Officers have thoroughly investigated every hit of evidence available, even investigating rumors, such as this report evidently is and not a single bit of evidence has been found that..."
That's where the first page leaves off, and I don't have any info on the rest of the letter.
He said that he wrote to "Heinie" a month before after Mr. Raper had talked to "Heinie" about 5 children alleged to have been moved to Cortez, FL after their home burned. He (I don't know whether this "he" is Heinie or Raper) has correspondence between Joe Carter of Tampa and Troy Simmons of Charleston, WV concerning these children which is self-explanatory.
Since writing "Heinie", another operator, O.D. "Dave" Fisher entered the case here (in WV). He reported that Mr. Barnette, County Commissioner of Cortez, FL, said he definitely saw the Sodder children in Cortez after the date of the fire.
The letter then said the question has arisen from time to time as to whether the children perished in the flames or were kidnapped. There is also a question concerning the parts of bodies found in the debris. He then listed the childrens' names and ages at the time of the fire.
It then said "shady and incompetent private detectives have from time to time advanced theories, manufactured evidence, etc., which has resulted in causing the parents much anxiety and takes every cent they earn, day by day.
"Our office, the State Police, and County Officers have thoroughly investigated every hit of evidence available, even investigating rumors, such as this report evidently is and not a single bit of evidence has been found that..."
That's where the first page leaves off, and I don't have any info on the rest of the letter.
There is a document dated a day after the last letter, written by Sgt. N.C Reger with the Dept. of Public Safety (WV State Police). He said that Maj. Boyles directed that the following info be typewritten and inserted in the Sodder case file.
Dave (O.D.) Fisher called Maj. Boyles and said that "a Mr. Barnette, County Commissioner of Cortez, Florida, said he definitely saw the Sodder children in Cortez after the date on which the fire occurred. He also said that Mr. Cipriani, a brother of Mrs. Sodder, is supposed to make a trip to Florida about every two weeks. Fisher advised Major Boyles that Joe Carter, of Tampa Coast Patrol and Detective Agency, is the man investigating the case in and around Cortez. Fisher gave Major Boyles 'information' which is the subject of a letter to Captain C.L. Walker, which is attached to this page. This letter to Captain Walker is also written at the Major's direction."
I haven't seen what's in the letters he referenced in this document.
Dave (O.D.) Fisher called Maj. Boyles and said that "a Mr. Barnette, County Commissioner of Cortez, Florida, said he definitely saw the Sodder children in Cortez after the date on which the fire occurred. He also said that Mr. Cipriani, a brother of Mrs. Sodder, is supposed to make a trip to Florida about every two weeks. Fisher advised Major Boyles that Joe Carter, of Tampa Coast Patrol and Detective Agency, is the man investigating the case in and around Cortez. Fisher gave Major Boyles 'information' which is the subject of a letter to Captain C.L. Walker, which is attached to this page. This letter to Captain Walker is also written at the Major's direction."
I haven't seen what's in the letters he referenced in this document.
shadowangel
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In Jan. 1952, a letter was written to the Superintendent at the Dept. of Public Safety in Charleston, WV from W.R. Callaghan, 1st Sgt, Company "D", at the Dept. of Public Safety in Montgomery, WV.
He said that on the morning of Nov. 19, 1951, he and Capt. C.L. Walker "contacted Mr. and Mrs. Tony Bree of Smithers, W.Va. in regards to the following story or information furnished by Mr. George Sodder of Fayetteville, W.Va. Mr. Sodder stated, 'On the night that his children were supposed to have burned up in his home near Fayetteville, W.Va. about Christmas time of 1945, that Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree of Smithers, W.Va. were supposed to have had the Sodder children in her home and kept them all night, while apparently awaiting transportation to Florida, or elsewhere by Mrs. Sodder's brother, a man by the name of Cipriani.'"
He and Capt. Walker "contacted Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree and related the accusation made by Mr. Sodder in reference to the children having been at her house during the night before Christmas of 1945. Both, Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree denied that the Sodder children had been there at the time specified, or at any other time to the best of their knowledge. They did admit that they were close friends with Mrs. Sodder's brother Jimmy Cipriani of Smithers, W.Va. and the other brother, who lives in Florida. The Bree's advised that the Cipriani family from Florida had been to their place somewhat earlier the year of 1945 and had eaten either dinner or supper with them before leaving for Florida, but they did not have any of the Sodder children with them at that time, nor was the Sodder family mentioned while they were visiting at the Brees' home."
Sgt. Callahan then said he had "known the Bree family personally for several years and personally [knows] that Toney Bree is honest and well respected by the people of his neighborhood." He said he believed they were both truthful in the matter concerning the Sodder children.
He said that on the morning of Nov. 19, 1951, he and Capt. C.L. Walker "contacted Mr. and Mrs. Tony Bree of Smithers, W.Va. in regards to the following story or information furnished by Mr. George Sodder of Fayetteville, W.Va. Mr. Sodder stated, 'On the night that his children were supposed to have burned up in his home near Fayetteville, W.Va. about Christmas time of 1945, that Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree of Smithers, W.Va. were supposed to have had the Sodder children in her home and kept them all night, while apparently awaiting transportation to Florida, or elsewhere by Mrs. Sodder's brother, a man by the name of Cipriani.'"
He and Capt. Walker "contacted Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree and related the accusation made by Mr. Sodder in reference to the children having been at her house during the night before Christmas of 1945. Both, Mr. and Mrs. Toney Bree denied that the Sodder children had been there at the time specified, or at any other time to the best of their knowledge. They did admit that they were close friends with Mrs. Sodder's brother Jimmy Cipriani of Smithers, W.Va. and the other brother, who lives in Florida. The Bree's advised that the Cipriani family from Florida had been to their place somewhat earlier the year of 1945 and had eaten either dinner or supper with them before leaving for Florida, but they did not have any of the Sodder children with them at that time, nor was the Sodder family mentioned while they were visiting at the Brees' home."
Sgt. Callahan then said he had "known the Bree family personally for several years and personally [knows] that Toney Bree is honest and well respected by the people of his neighborhood." He said he believed they were both truthful in the matter concerning the Sodder children.
Shadowangel, I'm so glad to see you posting here again! I started by reading the older threads, and once I caught up I missed you, the other Shadow, and the others who used to post here. I really admire the work you all did.
In Feb. 1952, a letter was written to Arson Investigator Cobb by Sheriff Hugh Culbreath. He said they received his communication of Jan. 22, 1952 about the Sodder case.
He was informing Cobb that on that day (Feb. 4th), he went to Bradenton, FL and contacted Mr. Roy Baden, Sheriff of that county. He very thoroughly went over this case with Sheriff Baden, and Baden was very familiar with it because he had thoroughly investigated it and also gotten FBI Agent McVey, who is stationed at Bradenton, to make an investigation in the matter.
"There is definitely no foundation for any report coming from that county in regards to the Sodder children. Mr. Baden informed me that he contacted all the persons who you named in your letter to us and there is definitely no foundation for the report of the private investigator hired by Mr. Sodder to make the investigation at Bradenton. Sheriff Baden also informs me that he has good contacts in Cortez and they were interviewed along with the others you mentioned both by himself and the FBI."
"I haven't, however, contacted the owner or any representative of the Tampa Patrol and Detective System because needless to say if they had any information, they would be hesitant to give it to us. I think however, that the investigation made by both the FBI office and the Sheriff's office of Manatee County is sufficient to rest your mind and should rest the minds of the parents of the deceased children. However, if we can be of any further assistance to you in this matter, please call on us."
He was informing Cobb that on that day (Feb. 4th), he went to Bradenton, FL and contacted Mr. Roy Baden, Sheriff of that county. He very thoroughly went over this case with Sheriff Baden, and Baden was very familiar with it because he had thoroughly investigated it and also gotten FBI Agent McVey, who is stationed at Bradenton, to make an investigation in the matter.
"There is definitely no foundation for any report coming from that county in regards to the Sodder children. Mr. Baden informed me that he contacted all the persons who you named in your letter to us and there is definitely no foundation for the report of the private investigator hired by Mr. Sodder to make the investigation at Bradenton. Sheriff Baden also informs me that he has good contacts in Cortez and they were interviewed along with the others you mentioned both by himself and the FBI."
"I haven't, however, contacted the owner or any representative of the Tampa Patrol and Detective System because needless to say if they had any information, they would be hesitant to give it to us. I think however, that the investigation made by both the FBI office and the Sheriff's office of Manatee County is sufficient to rest your mind and should rest the minds of the parents of the deceased children. However, if we can be of any further assistance to you in this matter, please call on us."
shadowangel
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I never really did that much, simple speculation based on the little bits of information that were generally available. My major contribution was just getting the story out there again---And most of the credit for that goes to Shadow205, who actually was able to recall the circumstances of the billboard. You've been able to find out much more relevant info as to what really occured that night.
In my heart, I honestly do not believe the children died that night. Where the story goes from there, is still for us to discover. I think you're on to a credible trail now...If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know.
In my heart, I honestly do not believe the children died that night. Where the story goes from there, is still for us to discover. I think you're on to a credible trail now...If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know.
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