WV WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #4

Wasn't LJ the one who confessed to cutting the phone lines and moving the ladder?

Jack
Yes he did admit to that but said he was trying to cut the powerlines which had he done would have killed him. Lonnie Johnson was questioned and even caught lying but the police never questioned him as much as they should and his partner, Dave Atkins, was never questioned at all.
 
Yes he did admit to that but said he was trying to cut the powerlines which had he done would have killed him. Lonnie Johnson was questioned and even caught lying but the police never questioned him as much as they should and his partner, Dave Atkins, was never questioned at all.
Why was he trying to cut the power lines? He had no business trespassing on the Sodder's property.

Did he want the Sodders to lose power? Or was there something more involved than that?

Satch
 
Why was he trying to cut the power lines? He had no business trespassing on the Sodder's property.

Did he want the Sodders to lose power? Or was there something more involved than that?

Satch
I honestly don't think those were very smart which is the reason they did some of the things they did.
 
Sometimes the simplest explanation can be the most compelling.

Police reports cited by the West Virginia Times indicate that George had kept 55-gallon drums of gasoline in the basement of his house for the coal trucking business.

Cruikshank, the firefighter interviewed by the newspaper, believed this would have intensified the heat of the fire.

When the Sodders covered the embers with dirt less than a week after the blaze, he said they inadvertently created an oven that would advance the cremation process.

It may explain why the remains of the children were never found.

But for the Sodders, who experienced a devastating sense of loss that cold winter's day in 1945, it may have been easier to hold on to the hope that Maurice, Martha, Louis, Jennie, and Betty were still out there.

"It's something that I think resonates with people, because it wasn't a single child. It was such a large part of the family, and it was at such a tragic time — Christmas," George and Jennie's granddaughter told the Independent
 
Just read about this case. Not really much information to go on, but
1) I do think it was likely an arson (no idea, who was the culprit or what was the aim)
2) I also think it is rather unlikely that all big bones of all 5 children in the attic could be cremated in a house fire, even if the dad did have some gasoline in the basement. This is not to say that I think that 5 children were kidnapped without anyone witnessing, either. But that there might be missing data points here. Then again, if they were really big gasoline drums and right below the location of the respective bedroom... Dunno. Is anything even certain in this case?
3) The timing - Christmas Eve - is kinda interesting, if anything criminal to any degree was involved.
 
My gut feeling tells me that there is no mystery and that the kids died in the fire. There have probably been countless other cases like this, but those cases are forgotten in time because the loved ones accepted the probable outcome.

Nonetheless this case is interesting and the Delimar Vera story proves that anything is possible. I find this case interesting because I had already thought of this hypothetical scenario in my head before I read about either case.
 
There was another similar case involving the Babbs Switch School when doing a Christmas program a fire broke out and killed over 30 people one of which was a baby named Mary Edens. Thirty years later a woman claimed to be that baby and even appeared on Art Linkletter's House Party however she was later proven a fake.

Babbs Switch School Fire

OK - OK - Mary Edens, 3, Babbs Switch, 24 December 1924
 
Are there any accounts of hearing or seeing the children struggle in the fire?
 
Are there any accounts of hearing or seeing the children struggle in the fire?
None. Part of what makes this suspicious. They were the last ones in the house to go to bed, but they were more sound asleep than everyone else?
 
None. Part of what makes this suspicious. They were the last ones in the house to go to bed, but they were more sound asleep than everyone else?
It doesn't prove much, actually. How easy it is to wake someone up depends on many factors, and the time someone went to bed is a relatively minor one. Especially for a kid on Xmas Eve, for obvious reasons. The time each individual one actually fell asleep could also vary greatly. The biggest variable depends on where each one was in their sleep cycle (each one 90 ± 20 min). It would be highly unlikely, under any circumstance, that the ones who perished were all at roughly the same point in their sleep cycle, and the ones that survived were at another. So it would only be suspicious if the fire started shortly after the last ones went to bed (it was at least a few hours).

Additionally, of the others that survived (George Sr, John, George Jr - the first 3 to bed - Mary, and the elder Jennie), not including 3-year-old Sylvia, only Jennie heard the phone and the banging on the roof. She was the last to bed, and was awakened at 12:30 AM and 1:00 AM, before falling back asleep, and was the first to wake up from the smoke at 1:30 AM. Whatever factors applied to the 5 middle children obviously didn't apply to her.
 
I don't know, maybe someone has already written about this, but I don't have the opportunity to read the entire discussion, although I usually try to do this, but not this time.


The text turned out to be long, but it cannot be shortened, otherwise the main thing will be lost.

Based on the data from Wikipedia and other sources where they roughly coincide, I tried to make a chronology of events for the family members separately: separately for the mother, separately for the father, and separately for the older sister Marion and the five missing. This allows us to better understand what happened in the house and, most importantly, who saw the children last.


First of all, it is worth highlighting the key moment that was the reason why the missing children Maurice (14), Martha (12), Louis (10), Jenny (8 years old) and Betty (5) were separated from the rest of the family and were not seen after 10:00 PM. The reason was that the older sister Marion (19 years old) brought toys to the younger children and they begged their mother to allow them to stay up and play longer - this was around 10:00 PM. Father (George) and two older brothers John and George Jr. were already asleep at this time, as they had worked a lot and were tired, mother (Jenny) told Maurice (14) and Louis (10) to look after the chickens and cows, after which she took three-year-old Sylvia and went upstairs to sleep. After 10:00 pm the picture looks like this: Father and older brothers are asleep, mother and little daughter are asleep, and downstairs there are the missing five and with them the senior sister Marion (19).


Next come the mother's movements, because they are the ones that are most known:

At 10:30 pm (approximately) the mother goes upstairs to sleep with Sylvia(3).


00:30 Mother is awakened by the phone ringing (checked, the phone really did ring). She goes downstairs, picks it up, talks briefly, hangs up. At the same time, she sees that the light is on, the curtains are not drawn, and Marion (19) (the sister who brought the toys) is sleeping on the sofa in the living room. The mother draws the curtains, turns off the light and goes back upstairs to bed. She hasn't seen the missing five, but she decided that everything was fine and they went upstairs, since Marion was sleeping so peacefully here.


1:00 Mother woke up from hearing a blow on the roof and a booming noise. She heard nothing else and fell asleep again.


1:30 Mother is awakened again by the smell of smoke. She wakes up Father, who wakes up John (22) and George Jr. (16). Mother was apparently rescuing 3-year-old Sylvia, with whom she went upstairs, so she did not try to find the other children.


Father's movements.

He most likely went to bed somewhere upstairs, before 10 pm, that is, around 9:00 pm - 9:30 pm, or earlier.

1:30
The father was woken up by his mother. The father woke up only the two eldest sons, maybe because they were sleeping in the same room, I don't know, but why he didn't save the others and where he ran next is unclear. Then it turns out that he and all the survivors are already downstairs, and the stairs leading up to the 5 missing are engulfed in flames.


Then the father tries to get into the house from the outside, hurts his hand, looks for a ladder, doesn’t find one, sees that the water has frozen, can’t start the trucks, that is, this is all the activity outside.


The movements of Marion's older sister (19). There seems to be nothing complicated here, but it is interesting because if you believe this sequence, then she started the process that led to the mysterious disappearance and should have been the last to see the 5 children.


22:00 Marion brings toys into the house. Because of this, the younger children do not go to bed on time.

After 22:00 Father sleeps, Mother sleeps, Marion should ideally stay downstairs, somewhere near the younger children.

00:30 Mother sees that Marion is sleeping somewhere downstairs in the living room. But the 5 children are not there.


1:30 Marion, along with everyone else, begins to escape from the burning house, then runs to the neighbors to call the fire department.


Since 10:00 p.m., none of the Sodders have seen the missing five except Marion, but I have not found any detailed interviews with her on this topic. If we follow this timeline, it turns out that the key figure is Marion, because it all started with her and she should have been the last one to see the children.


And several important questions arise:

Why did Marion fall asleep without turning off the light, without drawing the curtains, and without closing the door? If she followed the missing 5th as expected and took them upstairs to sleep, then why didn't she tidy up the rooms downstairs? Logically, one thing should have led to another. And if she abandoned the children and simply fell asleep, then why did she act so irresponsibly, and didn't the children playing disturb her sleep?


The phone was downstairs. At 00:30 it rang. Even if the mother heard it upstairs and came down, Marion who was downstairs should have heard it too. But she seemed to be pretending to be asleep or sleeping very soundly and not talking to her mother, why?


There may be a simple explanation for all this, but Marion's behavior is suspicious in any case.

Mary Ann “Marion” Sodder Crowder (1926-2005) -...
Marion died on September 12, 2005, in some nursing home or something, she got married and changed her last name from Sodder to Crowder, so her name was Mary Ann "Marion" Crowder, her husband's name was John Robert "Bob" Crowder, he died before her. Marion worked as a secretary at Lamson and Sessions in Cleveland, Ohio.


Unfortunately, it won't be possible to ask Marion these questions in person.
 
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I don't know, maybe someone has already written about this, but I don't have the opportunity to read the entire discussion, although I usually try to do this, but not this time.


The text turned out to be long, but it cannot be shortened, otherwise the main thing will be lost.

Based on the data from Wikipedia and other sources where they roughly coincide, I tried to make a chronology of events for the family members separately: separately for the mother, separately for the father, and separately for the older sister Marion and the five missing. This allows us to better understand what happened in the house and, most importantly, who saw the children last.


First of all, it is worth highlighting the key moment that was the reason why the missing children Maurice (14), Martha (12), Louis (10), Jenny (8 years old) and Betty (5) were separated from the rest of the family and were not seen after 10:00 PM. The reason was that the older sister Marion (19 years old) brought toys to the younger children and they begged their mother to allow them to stay up and play longer - this was around 10:00 PM. Father (George) and two older brothers John and George Jr. were already asleep at this time, as they had worked a lot and were tired, mother (Jenny) told Maurice (14) and Louis (10) to look after the chickens and cows, after which she took three-year-old Sylvia and went upstairs to sleep. After 10:00 pm the picture looks like this: Father and older brothers are asleep, mother and little daughter are asleep, and downstairs there are the missing five and with them the senior sister Marion (19).


Next come the mother's movements, because they are the ones that are most known:

At 10:30 pm (approximately) the mother goes upstairs to sleep with Sylvia(3).


00:30 Mother is awakened by the phone ringing (checked, the phone really did ring). She goes downstairs, picks it up, talks briefly, hangs up. At the same time, she sees that the light is on, the curtains are not drawn, and Marion (19) (the sister who brought the toys) is sleeping on the sofa in the living room. The mother draws the curtains, turns off the light and goes back upstairs to bed. She hasn't seen the missing five, but she decided that everything was fine and they went upstairs, since Marion was sleeping so peacefully here.


1:00 Mother woke up from hearing a blow on the roof and a booming noise. She heard nothing else and fell asleep again.


1:30 Mother is awakened again by the smell of smoke. She wakes up Father, who wakes up John (22) and George Jr. (16). Mother was apparently rescuing 3-year-old Sylvia, with whom she went upstairs, so she did not try to find the other children.


Father's movements.

He most likely went to bed somewhere upstairs, before 10 pm, that is, around 9:00 pm - 9:30 pm, or earlier.

1:30
The father was woken up by his mother. The father woke up only the two eldest sons, maybe because they were sleeping in the same room, I don't know, but why he didn't save the others and where he ran next is unclear. Then it turns out that he and all the survivors are already downstairs, and the stairs leading up to the 5 missing are engulfed in flames.


Then the father tries to get into the house from the outside, hurts his hand, looks for a ladder, doesn’t find one, sees that the water has frozen, can’t start the trucks, that is, this is all the activity outside.


The movements of Marion's older sister (19). There seems to be nothing complicated here, but it is interesting because if you believe this sequence, then she started the process that led to the mysterious disappearance and should have been the last to see the 5 children.


22:00 Marion brings toys into the house. Because of this, the younger children do not go to bed on time.

After 22:00 Father sleeps, Mother sleeps, Marion should ideally stay downstairs, somewhere near the younger children.

00:30 Mother sees that Marion is sleeping somewhere downstairs in the living room. But the 5 children are not there.


1:30 Marion, along with everyone else, begins to escape from the burning house, then runs to the neighbors to call the fire department.


Since 10:00 p.m., none of the Sodders have seen the missing five except Marion, but I have not found any detailed interviews with her on this topic. If we follow this timeline, it turns out that the key figure is Marion, because it all started with her and she should have been the last one to see the children.


And several important questions arise:

Why did Marion fall asleep without turning off the light, without drawing the curtains, and without closing the door? If she followed the missing 5th as expected and took them upstairs to sleep, then why didn't she tidy up the rooms downstairs? Logically, one thing should have led to another. And if she abandoned the children and simply fell asleep, then why did she act so irresponsibly, and didn't the children playing disturb her sleep?


The phone was downstairs. At 00:30 it rang. Even if the mother heard it upstairs and came down, Marion who was downstairs should have heard it too. But she seemed to be pretending to be asleep or sleeping very soundly and not talking to her mother, why?


There may be a simple explanation for all this, but Marion's behavior is suspicious in any case.

Mary Ann “Marion” Sodder Crowder (1926-2005) -...
Marion died on September 12, 2005, in some nursing home or something, she got married and changed her last name from Sodder to Crowder, so her name was Mary Ann "Marion" Crowder, her husband's name was John Robert "Bob" Crowder, he died before her. Marion worked as a secretary at Lamson and Sessions in Cleveland, Ohio.


Unfortunately, it won't be possible to ask Marion these questions in person.
Very well thought out post. I never stopped to think about it that way. The timeline is an excellent idea. It dispelled some thoughts I had about the events. For some reason I always thought that the mother ands father went to bed at the same time and their bedroom was downstairs. Also it was said that the oldest boy who was sleeping upstairs, logged in on the sleeping youngsters and did not see them in their beds when he went downstairs. Which makes one wonder is some how the children were not in the house at the time of the fire.
 
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Which makes one wonder is some how the children were not in the house at the time of the fire.


If you just try to imagine the situation: "Five children are left without adult supervision" (19-year-old Marion doesn't count, she's not quite an adult yet either). What do children usually do in such cases? They start running, jumping, making noise, acting up, and thoughts arise about doing something forbidden, climbing or going somewhere they weren’t allowed to.

So maybe they decided to go somewhere with Marion, to some place like an abandoned building - night, without parental supervision, time for adventures. And they all died there, in an accident. Marion, realizing that she was guilty of not keeping an eye on the children, went back and pretended to fall asleep and not know where the children were.( They had about an hour and a half to two hours to get there and Marion to get back alone, a maximum of about 40 minutes there, 40 minutes back, plus 10-15 minutes in this unknown place.)
There are many buts in this version, many assumptions and questions, and it is very difficult for me to imagine that the tragic death of children from an accident somewhere outside the home coincided with the arson of the house by some criminal individuals.

Still, I think Marion was hiding something... I never found a single interview with her personally. Didn't anyone notice that she was the last one to see the children?

But I found an interview with the mother, Jenny Sodder, in the newspaper: Beckley Post-Herald The Raleigh Register (Beckley, West Virginia) from July 11, 1976 and Marion is also present there.
Article clipped from Beckley Post-Herald The Raleigh Register
In my opinion, Marion is deliberately keeping a low profile here
and when the conversation turns to what happened inside the house, Marion deliberately intervenes and changes the conversation to what happened later on the street. It is written directly in the article: "Marion Sodder (now Marion Crowder of Cleveland, Ohio) interrupted and said, "During the fire, i kept watching the windows..."

There is something to think about.
 
The part of this case that makes the least sense to me is the Sicilian Mafia theory.

Nobody hated Mussolini more than the Sicilian Mafia.

His name is more toxic to the Sicilian Mafia than Giuliani's is to the Five Families. Among the broader Sicilian population and diaspora, he wasn't much more popular. Northern Italians, like Mussolini, looked down upon Southern Italians/Sicilians the way Northerners do Southerners in the US; under his regime, anyone accused of being in the Mafia could be imprisoned without due process, which inevitably led to the incarceration of many innocent Sicilians.

If the Sodders were threatened by any lingering Mussolini loyalists (which I'm not doubting), it's more likely that LCN would've offered the family protection from harm than harm them themselves - that is, if there actually were mafiosi in Fayetteville.
 
The part of this case that makes the least sense to me is the Sicilian Mafia theory.

Nobody hated Mussolini more than the Sicilian Mafia.

His name is more toxic to the Sicilian Mafia than Giuliani's is to the Five Families. Among the broader Sicilian population and diaspora, he wasn't much more popular. Northern Italians, like Mussolini, looked down upon Southern Italians/Sicilians the way Northerners do Southerners in the US; under his regime, anyone accused of being in the Mafia could be imprisoned without due process, which inevitably led to the incarceration of many innocent Sicilians.

If the Sodders were threatened by any lingering Mussolini loyalists (which I'm not doubting), it's more likely that LCN would've offered the family protection from harm than harm them themselves - that is, if there actually were mafiosi in Fayetteville.
I couldn't agree more on this. The mafia hated Mussolini and even if George had upset them they are not going to go after his children. I will also add that no life insurance salesman threatened to kill the children and burn their house to the ground because he bad mouthed Mussolini. In an interview on a podcast about this mystery George's granddaughter (who has posted on this board) mentioned that they were suspicious about someone trying to sell them life insurance right before the fire but said nothing about threats by the salesman.

On what was Marion's role in what happened that night you must remember that she had worked a very long day and was exhausted so not surprising she went right to asleep.
 
I couldn't agree more on this. The mafia hated Mussolini and even if George had upset them they are not going to go after his children. I will also add that no life insurance salesman threatened to kill the children and burn their house to the ground because he bad mouthed Mussolini. In an interview on a podcast about this mystery George's granddaughter (who has posted on this board) mentioned that they were suspicious about someone trying to sell them life insurance right before the fire but said nothing about threats by the salesman.

On what was Marion's role in what happened that night you must remember that she had worked a very long day and was exhausted so not surprising she went right to asleep.
I'm not even saying that they're wrong to suspect foul play. It definitely sounds like it was arson to me at the very least. I agree that it's quite a leap to torch almost a dozen people just because one of them has been mouthy (about a dead politician in another country). I could imagine it escalating to a drunken bar fight (then again, I'm Irish, the Italians have their own ways of dealing with things). Plus George wasn't even Sicilian, he was Sardinian, so the theory about him owing the Sicilian Mafia money doesn't make sense, either. As for the insurance salesman, I don't even think that had anything to do with Mussolini. All he said was "no". I doubt that was the first time he heard that. The guy was a door-to-door insurance salesman, he's lucky George even answered the door instead of turning off all the lights and hiding behind a curtain.

Side story... When my dad moved to Charleston after college, he had a cop friend who was transferred to the organized crime unit. After a few years, he said, "You know, there actually isn't any Mafia in WV!" Dad, who's from Jersey and had a friend whose father was in "this thing of ours", basically responded, no s***. The guy continued, "You know all those Italians in Charleston, Clarksburg, and Wheeling? They're all just... Italians!" (Your tax dollars at work.)

Anyway, there is no Mafia.
 

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