You're so Vain by Carly Simon mystery man

In one of Carly's interviews, she said the man was famous. I don't remember which interview as I have watched so many in the last few weeks. The thing is, famous to one might not be famous to another. My cousin, who listens to country and classic rock music, has no idea who Maroon 5 is. So Dan Armstrong could have been famous to Carly and her circle, but not well known to those outside the industry. I am liking the Dan Armstrong theory.
 
1 "In 2005, [Jim Hart, her husband for 20 years, beginning in 1987] told a small New York newspaper that “You’re So Vain” was not about any well-known name—just an old boyfriend of no particular notoriety.
Back in the mid/late 70's, Carly Simon did a radio interview on one of the rock radio stations in Los Angeles and what I remember her saying then about the mystery man in the song "Your So Vain" is he was someone she went to high school with. I don't remember if she said he was a boyfriend or just someone she had a crush on, but he wasn't the quarterback of the football team (that I do remember).

I've read here about what she told told Howard Stern and Dick Ebersol, and I wonder if they were told the same thing. One would assume so for consistency. But now I also wonder if what she said in the radio interview I heard was the truth or just "a story". I took it as the truth because it never dawned on me she was trying to maintain an aura of secrecy about the song.

What is interesting to me is how people try to decipher the song's lyrics and attribute it to one or more persons. To be sure, some songs are written about specific people, places and events that don't need explanation or interpretation (eg: "Ohio"). But songwriters get their inspiration from everywhere and everything. David Lee Roth once said his inspiration for the song "Little Guitars" was from the back of a mexican greeting card. And who knows what inspired Jim Morrison other than Irish whiskey (Bushmills?). So even if Carly was truthful that the subject in the song was someone she went to high school with who may or may not have been her boyfriend, I do find it believable that Carly could have also been inspired by lives of people such as Mick Jagger or Warren Beatty. Or from her imagination. Or from her experiences such as a party at her sister's house. The song could very well be a conglomeration.

Anyway, fwiw, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I sure wish I had taped that interview with her because I know what I heard her say. I only question if she was telling the truth or not. And it's very similar to what "Confusion" and "Steve S" have posted. If the hints she's now revealing are honest or a red herring, we may never know. Maybe Carly's sister can tell us who her high school crushes were, and then see if the letters fit. Heck, we may not want to know who the guy was. Sometimes fantasy really is better than the truth. But it's still fun to guess. I guess.
 
As a wise man particularly garrulous poster opined above, art is seldom only about one thing.
 
"In her 2008 book Girls Like Us, author Sheila Weller includes a detailed account of Simon's love affair with musician Dan Armstrong, and suggests that he was the inspiration for "You're So Vain." Simon and Armstrong crossed paths while performing in nightclubs, and formally met in 1968, when she brought her guitar in to be fixed in Armstrong's Guitar Repair Shop. Initially, Simon seemed to have little in common with Danny Armstrong. The married, father of five, was ten years her senior. And his working class roots were several levels below her on the social scale. Although Simon described him as an arrogant, opinionated Neanderthal, she found him to be overwhelmingly handsome and very gifted musically. Armstrong found her attractive and sufficiently talented but always played it cool and didn't come on too much. This of course only made Simon only more intrigued. After a few months of flirting, and a final separation from his wife, the couple started dating.

"In his 2012 biography, More Room in a Broken Heart, author and music journalist Stephen Davis claims that Carly Simon and Danny Armstrong, had sexual chemistry so intense that Carly, who called herself, "naive" at the time, became experimental, having sex on dares, in cars, parks and in other public places.[SUP][18][/SUP] Although both were busy with their new careers, Simon made herself more available in the relationship. And Armstrong, like many others in their circle, harbored a bit of resentment for Simon's air of privilege. Despite, their differences, the couple dated for nearly two years, until Simon began growing distant. She started spending a lot of time with her friend, songwriter, Jacob Brackman and moved into her own apartment. Dan, who was used to having the upper hand for most of their relationship, was surprised when Carly broke things off. But he handled it well and moved to L.A. to start up a new business. Carly did not handle the breakup well at all. She felt immediate regret and tried to make up with Dan, but was unsuccessful. Her heartbreak over losing him inspired the song, "Dan, My Fling," which appears on her first album. For the next year, Simon tried to reconnect with Armstrong but got no response. Simon even flew out to L.A. a few times while Armstrong was there, making it possible that he was, as the song lyrics go, the man who "walked into the party." Over the years, Carly continued reaching out to Dan at different points and places, but Armstrong had moved on. Carly claimed to have unrequited love for Danny Armstrong for many years. Weller writes that Armstrong had a cocky, boastful personality, once claiming to be the first and only electric guitar specialist in the world. He was also quoted as saying that he,"just plain owned New York at the time."[SUP][19][/SUP] Dan's full name, Daniel Kent Armstrong, contains all three letters of Carly's clue."

The following lyrics give us some insight into the interplay between Carly and Danny Armstrong. This (Dan, My Fling) was a song that preceded You're So Vain (this one was on a 1971 album, and You're So Vain was written in 1971). I'm intrigued with the idea that YSV was a continued shot in an attempt to get him back, and/or express frustration at not having been able to do so, and/or simply vent some emotional something-or-other in the aftermath of a white-hot romance that had ended for a romantic.

Also intrigues that DMF was not written by her, but rather by her close friend Jacob Brackman, who apparently was her emotional crutch when she and DA split ways. He saw the whole aftermath play out (and presumably the last throes of good times as well, plus the split itself, if not more), and apparently penned his observer's impression of her emotions, for her to sing. YSV would then be her own expression, more sassy and aloof, less needy - but again, with a bit of the undercurrent of "no hell like a woman scorned" flowing below its surface.

Lyrics to "Dan My Fling"

I said that I felt jailed up
As if our doors were nailed up
I said I needed separate places,
Parties, room to move around in.
I said I needed my fling
Had to get out and do some other thing.
It took me months to calculate
That I had nothing left without you-

(Chorus) Dan, my fling is all flung out
Now I've got to fall back on dreams

I thought I'd try and write you
I thought I'd try and phone you
I thought I'd try to tell you
That I smell your hair still on my pillow
But you'd just smile to please me
You'd shake your head, you'd tease me -
Remind me it was I who first claimed
That we both required freedom

(Chorus) Dan, my fling is all flung out
Now I've got to fall back on dreams

I'd dream up schemes to meet you,
I'd nonchalantly greet you,
I'd ask you up for coffee
Anytime you had an hour open.
You say you like my hair long,
You ask me if I've written any new songs,
You'd laugh, you'd turn and cross the street
And leave me dizzy with your laughter -

(Chorus) Dan, my fling is all flung out
Now I've got to fall back on dreams

I hear you're leaving this town,
You and some girl gonna travel around,
You bought a car with foldback seats,
you'll camp out by the lakes and forests.
I lie alone in our old bed,
Your laughter it's echoin' inside my head.
I close my eyes, I smell your hair
It's like I haven't slept in years -

(Chorus) Dan, my fling is all flung out
Now I've got to fall back on dreams
 
Weller writes that Armstrong had a cocky, boastful personality, once claiming to be the first and only electric guitar specialist in the world.
It does sound rather cocky to say that about yourself. I'm not sure I ever heard Dick Wagner or Steven Hunter make that claim about themselves in the early 70's when they were the preferred free-agent hired guns in the industry for the likes of Aerosmith, Lou Reed, Alice Cooper and KISS. Armstrong could have been, but not for very long though.

Helpful hint: that's not Joe Perry you hear on Aerosmith's "Train Kept A Rollin'" ;)

What did Danny Armstrong ever record that was so great?
 
As one can never range too far afield, in the spirit of *cough hermeneutically exegesizing this or any other text, I shall have read into our minutes the contents of these links concerning (see above) Don McLean's 1972 hit single "American Pie" (1972....same year as....wait for it....Carly's li'l ditty, nudge-wink), linking as follows:

1. What the hell is McLean going on about?

and

2. This is really about Bobby Dylan, correct?

And now, back to Mick and/or Warren.
 
[video=youtube;AP9oykgqsHE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP9oykgqsHE[/video]
 
http://www.carlysimon.com/You're_So_Vain.html

From her website:


...USA Today - June 2005

"It's about Mark Felt!" Simon, 59, joked by phone Wednesday from her home in Martha's Vineyard, referring to the former FBI official who has said he was Deep Throat. You're So Vain was a No. 1 hit in January 1973, six months after the Watergate break-in that led to President Nixon's downfall.

But unlike the Watergate principals, Simon says she'll never reveal the answer, not even when she or the song's subject dies....


So it would appear to me that the subject was still alive in 2005. Armstrong died in 2004. So far I'm sticking with my theory that the dude's are still alive.
 
FWIW, don't have to be "God's gift to ____ " in order to think of yourself that way.
Noted, but it helps.

It's "only" about 40 years old, but Lou Reed's "Sweet Jane" is still my go-to Dick Wagner and Steven Hunter song.

The intro, the outro, the riff, the solos, the fills, the melodies and just the interplay between them both is about as good as it gets for me. Most importantly, it's clean. There's no slop whatsoever. The song could only be improved upon if Carly herself were singing it.

[video=youtube;7FdWPeHFAMk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FdWPeHFAMk[/video]
 
I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I did find this. Please forgive me if it's been posted before... I found it interesting. (sorry but you will probably have to copy the link and paste in your browser.)

http://dating.famousfix.com/tpx_440/carly-simon/dating-history
 
I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I did find this. Please forgive me if it's been posted before... I found it interesting. (sorry but you will probably have to copy the link and paste in your browser.)

http://dating.famousfix.com/tpx_440/carly-simon/dating-history

Very cool, great find. Here's one of the guys full name: Charles William Donaldson (She dated him in 1964)

This is from the site:

(He had)liaisons with Sarah Miles and Carly Simon. He abandoned Miles for Simon, whom he described as "the answer to any sane man's prayers; funny, quick, erotic, extravagantly talented" but this did not prevent him from jilting her once they were engaged and returning to Miles

Hmmm... a new suspect emerges.

From the song:

...You had me several years ago
When I was still quite naive
Well, you said that we made such a pretty pair
And that you would never leave
But you gave away the things you loved
And one of them was me...


That situation certainly fits the lyrics. Now I have to rethink my theory. :thinking:

This sure sounds like the guy. He passed away in June of 2005, but he so closely fits the song he's at least one of the three. JMO
 
If this Wiki entry is true he fits the song a lot!


...Donaldson married Sonia Avory in 1957 and she bore him his only child, Charlie. However, he left her for Jacki Ellis, then the wife of Jeffrey Bernard, but in due course she left him. A sequence of affairs followed, including liaisons with Sarah Miles and Carly Simon.[1] He left Miles for Simon, whom he described as "the answer to any sane man's prayers; funny, quick, erotic, extravagantly talented", but this did not prevent him from jilting her while they were engaged and returning to Miles.[5] In 1968, Donaldson inherited another fortune and married Claire Gordon.[citation needed] The couple epitomised 1960s Swinging London. He later remembered that "sex, whether in company or not, has been the only department in life in which I have demanded from anyone taking part the very highest standards of seriousness."[2]

He was survived by his third wife, Cherry Hatrick....


The bolded part fits this part of the song: https://play.google.com/music/previ...rch&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics

...Well, you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not, you're with
Some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend
Wife of a close friend, and...
 
Here are the complete lyrics and I'll try to make a case for Charles William Donaldson. My emphasis and clues are in red as well as personal observations. Parts from the Wiki entry, and another website about him are bolded.

Assuming this Wiki entry is accurate he really fits the profile: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Donaldson

This is from Carly's site:

USA Today - June 2005

"It's about Mark Felt!" Simon, 59, joked by phone Wednesday from her home in Martha's Vineyard, referring to the former FBI official who has said he was Deep Throat. You're So Vain was a No. 1 hit in January 1973, six months after the Watergate break-in that led to President Nixon's downfall.

But unlike the Watergate principals, "Simon says she'll never reveal the answer, not even when she or the song's subject dies."


That interview took place June 1st, 2005. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2005-06-01-carly-simon-mystery_x.htm

Charles William Donaldson died June 22, 2005.


You're so Vain lyrics.

You walked into the party
Like you were walking onto a yacht
Your hat strategically dipped below one eye
Your scarf it was apricot
You had one eye in the mirror
As you watched yourself gavotte
And all the girls dreamed that they'd be your partner
They'd be your partner, and


From Wiki:

Donaldson enjoyed a privileged upbringing in Sunningdale, Berkshire, as the son of a shipping magnate. He was educated at Winchester College, where he met Julian Mitchell. He spent some money supporting young writers such as his contemporaries Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath.[2] He completed his National Service in the Royal Navy in the late 1950s, reaching the rank of Sub-Lieutenant.

Sub Lieutenant and Commander are both ranks of Commissioned Officers in the Royal Navy. This fact becomes important further down.

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?

You had me several years ago
When I was still quite naive
Well, you said that we made such a pretty pair
And that you would never leave
But you gave away the things you loved
And one of them was me

I had some dreams they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and


From this site mentioned above: http://dating.famousfix.com/tpx_440/carly-simon/dating-history

(He had)liaisons with Sarah Miles and Carly Simon. He abandoned Miles for Simon, whom he described as "the answer to any sane man's prayers; funny, quick, erotic, extravagantly talented" but this did not prevent him from jilting her once they were engaged and returning to Miles


You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?

I had some dreams they were clouds in my coffee
Clouds in my coffee, and

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?

Well, I hear you went up to Saratoga
And your horse naturally won
Then you flew your Lear jet up to Nova Scotia
To see the total eclipse of the sun
Well, you're where you should be all the time
And when you're not, you're with
Some underworld spy or the wife of a close friend

Wife of a close friend, and


My own note: If we go back to the Wiki entry that says he was in the Royal Navy an interesting coincidence appears. The character James Bond was a commander in the Royal Navy before he was moved to Her Majesty's Secret Service. (Underworld Spy?)

From Wiki:

Donaldson married Sonia Avory in 1957 and she bore him his only child, Charlie. However, he left her for Jacki Ellis, then the wife of Jeffrey Bernard (The wife of a close friend)

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?

From Wiki:

In 1968, Donaldson had a substantial inheritance, and in 1971 he left Britain for Ibiza, where he imprudently spent his last £2,000 on a glass-bottomed boat. Before long he was scavenging for food on the beach. Returning to London, he found refuge with a former girlfriend who was running a brothel on the Fulham Road.[1] His experiences there formed the basis of his first novel, Both the Ladies and the Gentlemen (1975).

Substantial inheritance? Enough to own a Lear Jet?

I'm changing my mind. This is the guy.
 
Ok, I woke up with this: One of the "gave away the things you loved", re: Dan A: it could be his kids from wife #1 who moved to FL with their 5 kids in 1963 thereabouts. Two of the kids eventually came back to NYC in 1968 to 1971 to live wirh Dan and wife #2. One son states in interview that he doesn't remember much about father in early yrs as he was always on road. Was on stage with Carly circa 1967. This is all found on DanArmstrong.org.

Scary that this must have been on my brain while I was sleeping
:shame: So, perhaps we can start list of things, etc. that one can give away that would be worthy of carving in stone. ..verse.
 
Guardian Donaldson obit. I note he was the author of 'Brewer's Rogues, Villains And Eccentrics,' one of the most entertaining books I know.

Donaldson lived by the seat of his pants - which were often cast aside, for his abundant good humour, the ultimate aphrodisiac, brought him more than a dalliance with the actor Sarah Miles and the singer Carly Simon. They were among the many who did not become one of his three wives.

Donaldson entitled a book 'I'm Leaving You, Simon - You Disgust Me: The Dictionary of Received Ideas.'

Talk: William Donaldson (Wiki)

William Donaldson has been tipped as the subject of Carly Simon's song "You're So Vain". The Telegraph obituary gives a number of clues (how he wears his hat, his affairs with his friends' wives, his sale of family treasures) that this might be the case.
 
So the ur-gavotter was in fact Willie Donaldson, filtered through more then-current fancies like Mick and Warren, perhaps.
 
William Donaldson, another pre-fame flame? Now we're talking. If he's not the guy, or Grossman or Armstrong, this is the right sort imo - and the idea that she didn't want to name him and end the big-name speculation because if she says it's a no-name, it becomes a huge letdown.

Out of curiosity, has anyone discovered who she lived with in France for a year, when she had nervous breakdowns?

As far as "living or dead," I'm still not persuaded H Stern really knows who it is. He has always been full of hot air. Nor do I think that CS gave any actual clue as to which, when she said she wouldn't reveal his name even if he died. When asked that question, she may have been thinking "Little do you know, he already passed, and obviously I didn't say anything." She was not asked IF he was living or dead.
 
One more thought about Donaldson: from reading accounts of his life, it sounds like he would have been the sort to spend money extravagantly and frivolously when he had it (and at times, apparently he had a lot) - such as chartering a Learjet just to fly to Nova Scotia to see a total (rather than partial) eclipse of the sun.
 

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