Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[minor4th]

I too fail to see how there's no question it was an accident. There is absolutely no way to know for sure. I find that short sighted. Just because Oscar says it was an accident doesn't mean it was. I find it more unlikely that it was an accident. Do guns really just go off? That's rather inconvenient for Oscar, a man who has demonstrated quite an obsession with guns. So, no, there's not "no question" that it was an accident.

Sorry, I didn't know that this was even in question or that the state was claiming it was intentional

 

[minor4th]

BBM

I agree, I remember that from Stipp's testimony too. Maybe Barber is confused about when exactly he was told to call. He did mention he was standing there in shock for a little bit.

This is seriously some of the worst articulation I've ever seen by lawyers. And every time Roux tries to reference reports, he has to pause and can't seem to find what he needs. It feels like they're winging it at times. I'm sure that's not the case but it feels really sloppy.

I have wondered if at times Roux is making this confusing on purpose.

It seems easy enough to just produce the phone records and get the timeline down pat - I guess that will happen during the defense case.

 

[minor4th]

Since we don't have a lot of evidence yet, it is also speculation to assume that the order was 1. gunshots, 2. cricket bat, as you are stating.

That is only taken as "given" because Oscar says so, and IMO Oscar has already been caught in lies.

JMO.

You're right - conclusions shouldn't be drawn this early and without hearing all the evidence. I should revise to say - at this point, after hearing limited evidence, the evidence suggests that the gunshots were first and the cricket bat was second.

I wasn't taking that as a given because Oscar says so, I arrived at that conclusion by logical inference and according the the principle of Occam's Razor.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Please tell a german WS about screams: is it words or tones or both of this? :blushing:

 

[minor4th]

I am fairly certain that the Judge will realize, based on the evidence, that Oscar is lying in his version of events. So far, that has been established, IMO, and the damage will continue through the trial, IMO.

Then the question obviously is, why would Oscar lie about events of that night?

So far in the trial, I'm thinking a Guilty verdict by the Judge.

JMO.

Ok, I just responded to a post of yours that chastised me for saying the evidence established anything because we've only heard limited evidence. Now you're saying it has been "established" that Oscar is lying in his version of events. You even go so far as to predict a guilty verdict.

Would you mind laying out what evidence we've heard so far that "establishes" that Oscar is lying in his version?

 

[minor4th]

Please tell a german WS about screams: is it words or tones or both of this? :blushing:

It can be both. Someone can be screaming words- for instance "Help!" or "Fire!"

Screaming can also be tones, or without words - for instance if someone is frightened or in pain screaming "AAAAAAAHHH" or "OOOOOWWWWOOOOO"

 

[zqtpie]

Yes, Roux has been up against some very credible and strong ear witnesses, but hasn't been very successful in getting them to change their testimony. (I'll bet he is used to walking over most witnesses) He can be so arrogant, patronizing and single-minded until you want to pull your hair out. He is very much in his element in that court, and probably has intimidated a lot of people in his day (prosecutors and judges alike)...but it is fun to watch him try to convince some of those high calibre witnesses that a cricket bat can sound just like a gun shot and OP screams like a girl. Let me poot it to you that He's good, but not THAT good.

 

[minor4th]

Since y'all think I'm an irrational Oscar apologist, here are a couple of things that bother me about Oscar's statements:

Top of the list: Oscar's first statement said that Reeva was asleep in bed, and that they had both been asleep for a while, when he woke up to move the fan inside and close the sliding doors. His plea explanation says that he had spoken to Reeva shortly before getting the fan. This later amendment has the appearance of trying to account for witness statements about hearing voices and/or arguing.

2. Oscar stated that he and Reeva were very happy and deeply in love - this is an attempt to try to do away with motive, and in reality it seems they had been in a stormy patch leading up to the date of the shooting

3. In his plea explanation, Oscar says that he heard the bathroom window sliding open but in his bail affidavit, he only said he heard a noise in the bathroom. Again, this looks like he is coming up with additional information in response to what he believes the witnesses will say. It wouldn't bother me, except is there anything to indicate that Reeva was opening or closing the toilet window?

The other small discrepancies in his statement do not bother me - the number of fans is irrelevant IMO and indicates nothing other than being more specific when preparing his plea explanation.

None of these things prove guilt by any means, but in my mind it does suggest that Oscar is trying hard to explain away certain things. Once again, too early to draw conclusions, especially since we have not heard his testimony.

 

[shane13]

Protection For Oscar

I do hope SAPS and/or Oscar's own bodyguards protect him properly. He deserves his day in court.

From what I can see, outside crowds are allowed to get too close to him.
So many nuts abound. Could see someone wanting to make a name for themselves, or other things.

 

[minor4th]

Yes, Roux has been up against some very credible and strong ear witnesses, but hasn't been very successful in getting them to change their testimony. (I'll bet he is used to walking over most witnesses) He can be so arrogant, patronizing and single-minded until you want to pull your hair out. He is very much in his element in that court, and probably has intimidated a lot of people in his day (prosecutors and judges alike)...but it is fun to watch him try to convince some of those high calibre witnesses that a cricket bat can sound just like a gun shot and OP screams like a girl. Let me poot it to you that He's good, but not THAT good.

I wouldn't underestimate him. I believe that in certain instances where it appears that he is trying to get the witnesses to change their testimony, his actual purpose is to lock them in to their version and also to demonstrate their bias and refusal to consider possibilities that do not align with their beliefs about Oscar's guilt.

I agree he is in his element - he has a presence that suggests he is in command, even with the judge. He is aggravating for sure.

ETA: He has pretty well established that a cricket bat hitting the door can sound like gunshots, as Stipp said they sounded identical. Roux knew this would be Stipp's testimony, and I believe this is why he really got Burger to twist herself in knots over her certainty that she heard gunshots and it could not possibly be the cricket bat hitting the door -- her dogmatic insistence and refusal to admit even the possibility paints her as unreasonable and biased.

 

[curiousjo]

What did OP state regarding:

-Any admission to an argument in early morning hours?

-Lights on /off in the home in the early morning hours?

 

[Really?]

Protection For Oscar

I do hope SAPS and/or Oscar's own bodyguards protect him properly. He deserves his day in court.

From what I can see, outside crowds are allowed to get too close to him.
So many nuts abound. Could see someone wanting to make a name for themselves, or other things.

I was REALLY surprised by this as well. On the second day of court, after court ended for the day, the camera was outside. Judging by the reporter repeating his lines over and over rehearsing......more people crowding around. Finally after 30 minutes or more and many more people crowding the exit.......5 to 6 BIG guards went in....and a few seconds later OP came out INTO to crowd........not really surrounded by guards. It looked crazy.

 

[shane13]

"Oscar’s sister Aimee broke the ice on Thursday"


Not widely reported? A bittersweet moment.

“…Meanwhile, their sister Aimee broke the ice on Thursday by going over to talk to Kim Martin, Miss Steenkamp’s cousin, who was sitting on the other end of the family bench. Her approach was welcomed after the disappointment expressed by Miss Steenkamp’s mother, June, that Pistorius wouldn’t even look at her when she attended the first day of the trial…”
BBM

As a fascinating aside to you folks: From OP’s Blade Runner autobio, when Oscar was circa 2-3 years old, he would touch or kiss infant Aimee’s toes while she slept. He no longer had feet by then, and was in awe of Aimee’s toes. This would awaken Aimee and she had difficulty getting sleep…. She is probably the loveliest member of that family. Heck, Oscar was/is charming as hell too. Tragedy all around. Obviously most of all for Reeva.

Not sure if they ever met, but I think Aimee and Reeva would have liked each other.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor....-a-week-in-the-trial-of-Oscar-Pistorius.html

 

[shane13]

I was REALLY surprised by this as well. On the second day of court, after court ended for the day, the camera was outside. Judging by the reporter repeating his lines over and over rehearsing......more people crowding around. Finally after 30 minutes or more and many more people crowding the exit.......5 to 6 BIG guards went in....and a few seconds later OP came out INTO to crowd........not really surrounded by guards. It looked crazy.

Thanks. So you saw some of this too.

It only takes a second for an unprotected person to be harmed if not protected vigorously.

 

[minor4th]

What did OP state regarding:

-Any admission to an argument in early morning hours?

-Lights on /off in the home in the early morning hours?

No argument, and he turned the lights on after the shots and before the cricket bat

 

[minor4th]

What is the story of the 5th phone? I haven't heard of this

 

[sorrell skye]

Going back over old articles from last year.

The snippet below is from 2/20/2013, following the bail hearing.

Police also found two iPhones in the bathroom and two BlackBerrys in the bedroom, Botha said, adding that none had been used to phone for help. Roux later suggested that a fifth phone, not collected by the police, was used by Pistorius to make calls for a hospital and help. After the hearing, Roux told journalists that Pistorius' defense team had the phone, but did not elaborate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hearing-hilton-botha-testimony_n_2725410.html

2 phones found in the bathroom (IIRC, they were found on the floor mat): neither of these were used to call for help.

2 phones found in the bedroom: neither of these were used to call for help.

5th phone: OP's legal team collected this phone, and claim this is the phone OP used to call for help.

I've always been curious about the 2 phones found on the floor in the bathroom. Since neither of these were used to phone for help, I wonder why they were in the bathroom - on the floor, no less?

I've followed this case from the beginning, but took a break the past few months. Can someone please remind me whether or not the State is in possession of this 5th phone?

 

[minor4th]

Going back over old articles from last year.

The snippet below is from 2/20/2013, following the bail hearing.

Police also found two iPhones in the bathroom and two BlackBerrys in the bedroom, Botha said, adding that none had been used to phone for help. Roux later suggested that a fifth phone, not collected by the police, was used by Pistorius to make calls for a hospital and help. After the hearing, Roux told journalists that Pistorius' defense team had the phone, but did not elaborate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...hearing-hilton-botha-testimony_n_2725410.html

2 phones found in the bathroom (IIRC, they were found on the floor mat): neither of these were used to call for help.

2 phones found in the bedroom: neither of these were used to call for help.

5th phone: OP's legal team collected this phone, and claim this is the phone OP used to call for help.

I've always been curious about the 2 phones found on the floor in the bathroom. Since neither of these were used to phone for help, I wonder why they were in the bathroom - on the floor, no less?

I've followed this case from the beginning, but took a break the past few months. Can someone please remind me whether or not the State is in possession of this 5th phone?

Thanks for that explanation. We have really not heard anything about the phones yet in the trial, but the bill of further particulars indicates that the state has all the phones and the data and records for all of them

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

It can be both. Someone can be screaming words- for instance "Help!" or "Fire!"

Screaming can also be tones, or without words - for instance if someone is frightened or in pain screaming "AAAAAAAHHH" or "OOOOOWWWWOOOOO"

I wonder what was that 'noise ' like supposedly coming from his own loo just a few meters away that made him ' scream ' before shooting so wild and bloodcurdling that even neighbors from long away heard and
jumped out of their beds ..Frightened and terrified screams of Oscar and indeed sounding as a woman to an unknown intruder tearing up the night and making almost the whole estate alert and vigilant.. ending up a dead girlfriend in the loo. Makes no sense ..

One wonders whether he screamed the same way when he heard the washing machine sound :banghead:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Did you guys also notice that Barber made the comment that once he snapped out of his shock, he wanted to get a look at what Oscar was wearing?

He just made that statement and Nel never followed up on it. So we never heard what Oscar was wearing or why Barber felt it was important to note that. Weird.

Pajama set or not pajama set? Why? I would like to know the reason of questioning. fftobed: