Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[minor4th]

All true, however, it won't be just one ear witness (or even only all the ear witnesses taken collectively) who will be the basis for a conviction of PM if the judge decides that way.

I assume the judge will utilize all the testimony and all the evidence to determine her decision. If there are (for example) 8 witnesses who say they heard what they claim was a female screaming and one of the witnesses' spouses says those screams were Oscar, the judge will have to decide which is more credible, unless she disregards all the ear witnesses' testimonies because it's impossible to know who was correct and who was incorrect.

Given that only 1 week of testimony has elapsed and there are probably another 8 weeks or more to go, we know PM has not been proven yet because if it was the state would have rested and would not need to put on any more witnesses.

I personally find it reasonable to conclude that both Reeva & Oscar were screaming that night.

I agree with you - after all is said and done, the judge will weigh the credibility of all the evidence and decide what's reasonable in terms of what to believe.

It is certainly reasonable to believe that both Reeva and Oscar were screaming that night. All I'm saying is there has been a bit of evidence that suggests otherwise, and we haven't heard the defense's explanation or how plausible it is.

By the way, does anyone know any more about Werwe and why there was an issue with her first statement that was "disavowed" by the prosecution? I'm having a hard time deciding about her accuracy because of that but I would like to know more.

 

[Trooper]

I don't know!! I don't know how many times I can say it. The only foundation I have at the moment is that Werwe thought it was a woman screaming but then realized it was Oscar. If Werwe can mistake Oscar's screams for a woman, so could others.

At this point there is no way to know or even form a solid opinion because I haven't heard what Roux is going to present. I say it's possible only because one witness has already said it.

I accept that you don't know.. what I find curious is that you claim that the witnesses who state they hear this are biased in favour of the Prosecution of Pretorius.. this is a colossal claim .. in Mrs Burgers case , forming a bias over a period of time.

As to what Roux has or hasn't presented, this is incorrect. he has presented the claim, the opinion, that the witnesses are mistaken. If you didn't hear it, it is easily found in reports of the trial so far. I might add, this is the only refutation that Roux has presented, and this has to be Oscars instruction, the position of mistaken perceptions by the witnesses so far..except in the case of Samantha, where it was an email that wasn't produced.

It is this that concerns me that Oscar is not getting the very best representation.. 7 witnesses in a row, all mistaken is not a good look.. it smacks of a lack of preparation and haste..

It has only been a year and a few days since the killing, and I doubt the time scale given to mount a defence..Even without all the peripheral complications of this case, a year is a very short time to get it all together. Presenting each witness so far as instantly and collectively mistaken in their perceptions of what they heard, and saw ( Baba, Larena and Samantha ) is the kind of thing in my country that would result in a plea further down the road of possible incompetent representation. and its only a week into it.

 

[minor4th]

I accept that you don't know.. what I find curious is that you claim that the witnesses who state they hear this are biased in favour of the Prosecution of Pretorius.. this is a colossal claim .. in Mrs Burgers case , forming a bias over a period of time.

As to what Roux has or hasn't presented, this is incorrect. he has presented the claim, the opinion, that the witnesses are mistaken. If you didn't hear it, it is easily found in reports of the trial so far. I might add, this is the only refutation that Roux has presented, and this has to be Oscars instruction, the position of mistaken perceptions by the witnesses so far..except in the case of Samantha, where it was an email that wasn't produced.

It is this that concerns me that Oscar is not getting the very best representation.. 7 witnesses in a row, all mistaken is not a good look.. it smacks of a lack of preparation and haste..

It has only been a year and a few days since the killing, and I doubt the time scale given to mount a defence..Even without all the peripheral complications of this case, a year is a very short time to get it all together. Presenting each witness so far as instantly and collectively mistaken in their perceptions of what they heard, and saw ( Baba, Larena and Samantha ) is the kind of thing in my country that would result in a plea further down the road of possible incompetent representation. and its only a week into it.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by bias. First of all, everyone is biased because of their perceptions and beliefs, so it is not a criticism to say that someone's testimony is biased. I do not think that Burger was lying on the stand, but I do believe her perceptions and recollections have been influenced over the last year according to her own admission that Oscar was lying in his account and she thinks him guilty.

When Oscar testifies, I will likely say the same thing of him and his witnesses. Oscar obviously will want to make himself look good and avoid conviction - so his testimony will be suspect before he ever opens his mouth. If he is guilty of premeditated murder, I think that will become more clear as the trial progresses because he will not be able to reasonably explain away everything.

I think Oscar is getting good representation - the witnesses say what they say, and there's no preparation that can change that. How well prepared he defense is will be revealed when they put on their case - but so far, I think Roux has done a good job in his cross-examination.

 

[Trooper]

I'm interested to hear what OP says he did in the minutes between the time the 1st call to Stander and once Dr. Stipp and Stander arrived. Granted the timeline we have may not be accurate but if we go by OP's affidavit and the phone calls, OP was running back in forth quite a bit during the first 2-3 minutes of the shooting which occured . He accomplished quite a bit but what did he accomplish during the next 5-10 minutes? Let's review OP's Affidavit:

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.
I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up etc .

I had forgotten that bit about him going downstairs to open the front door for the expected but unrung for ambulance.. ..

And I wonder if it was here, and it only could be here , the time where Oscar starts his own car up and leaves the doors open? that is, he goes outside the front door, to where the car is parked, keys in hand ( its not probable that he leaves the keys in the car , not security conscious ) which means, he would have had to pick up the keys to the car either downstairs or upstairs , gone way past the front door to the parked car, started it, and flung open the front and back doors.

the car running with the doors open isn't anywhere in Oscars statement..

I tried to fit Standar into being the one who did this, or ms Standar.. problems with it.

because, someone started his car up, and opened up the doors of it, and left it running and doors open.. Baba saw it as this and so did Dr Stipp..

 

[Cherwell]

that the one time there is archival footage ( with sound) of Oscar in an incandescent rage ( London Olympics race that he lost), the biggest loss Oscar had endured , caught on camera, he is in a complete meltdown for about 10 mins, and doesn't scream with the pitch , frequency and timbre of a woman..

I've never seen this - had a quick look around but can only find the race itself. Can you give a link, please, if it's available to watch anywhere.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't know!! I don't know how many times I can say it. The only foundation I have at the moment is that Werwe thought it was a woman screaming but then realized it was Oscar. If Werwe can mistake Oscar's screams for a woman, so could others.

At this point there is no way to know or even form a solid opinion because I haven't heard what Roux is going to present. I say it's possible only because one witness has already said it.

Who is Werwe, please?

 

[Trooper]

it has to be Oscar who starts his car up. Baba saw it running and open, and Baba beat Standar and his daughter to Oscar's house by a bees antenna, except that Standar and daughter pushed past Baba on the doorstep.. by this time, Oscar had returned, obviously, up stairs, after opening the front door for the ambulance ( it hadn't arrived by the time Dr Stipp left and went home) and going to his parked car, starting it up ( making sure it is in park!) and opening the back and front doors.

Then returning up stairs, at a great clip, I'd say, and proceeds to pick up Reeva and carry her downstairs.. he hasn't reached the hallway , he is still descending by the time Baba peers around Standar from the front door.

because he was carrying Reeva downstairs..

 

[Trooper]

Who is Werwe, please?

Madame Van der Werwe was the first witness.. a neighbor.

 

[minor4th]

Who is Werwe, please?

She is the woman who testified after Burger. She lives diagonal to Oscar I believe. Closer than Burger but farther than Stander.

 

[sorrell skye]

I'm interested to hear what OP says he did in the minutes between the time the 1st call to Stander and once Dr. Stipp and Stander arrived. Granted the timeline we have may not be accurate but if we go by OP's affidavit and the phone calls, OP was running back in forth quite a bit during the first 2-3 minutes of the shooting which occured . He accomplished quite a bit but what did he accomplish during the next 5-10 minutes? Let's review OP's Affidavit:

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.
I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms."

It makes it sound like this took only a few minutes but the timeline is indicating it was closer to 8 minutes. Perhaps he was on the phone with Netcare or perhaps he was trying to stop the bleeding or resuscitate her. Maybe he was in shock. Still, it seems quite a long time if you are trying to get someone to the hospital.

BBM

The above bolded is the portion I want to address.

Of all the independent witnesses regarding the murder charge who have testified thus far, I find Dr. Stipp to be the most credible.

OP claimed in his BH affidavit that he phoned Stander and asked him to call an ambulance.

Yet, Dr. Stipp testified that when he asked Stander "Is the ambulance on its way?", Stander replied, "No, I haven't called the ambulance yet."

If OP had asked Stander to phone for an ambulance, why hadn't Stander done so prior to Dr. Stipp asking Stander about an ambulance?

I'm having serious doubts that OP was telling the truth when he claimed in his BH affidavit that he'd asked Stander to phone for an ambulance. Dr. Stipp also testified that Stander referred to OP as "Oscar" - first name basis. Not "Mr. Pistorious", but "Oscar", as if they were/are friends.

Is Stander on a first name basis with all the homeowners of Silver Woods Estate?

I believe Dr. Stipp's testimony, and I think his testimony is very damning.

 

[aa9511]

it has to be Oscar who starts his car up. Baba saw it running and open, and Baba beat Standar and his daughter to Oscar's house by a bees antenna, except that Standar and daughter pushed past Baba on the doorstep.. by this time, Oscar had returned, obviously, up stairs, after opening the front door for the ambulance ( it hadn't arrived by the time Dr Stipp left and went home) and going to his parked car, starting it up ( making sure it is in park!) and opening the back and front doors.

Then returning up stairs, at a great clip, I'd say, and proceeds to pick up Reeva and carry her downstairs.. he hasn't reached the hallway , he is still descending by the time Baba peers around Standar from the front door.

because he was carrying Reeva downstairs..

So we know that when Baba called Oscar, Oscar told him "everything is fine."

When Baba sees Oscar for the first time, he is carrying Reeva downstairs.

Knowing that security called him, Oscar knows that someone is coming. He probably also presumes that other people will have heard the gunshots. In short, he knows that PEOPLE are coming.

Oscar picks Reeva up and takes her down the stairs.

JMO but I think he did this b/c he did NOT want SEVERAL witnesses to what position Reeva was lying in, what was the position of the cricket bat, gun - general state of the bathroom.

He wanted to avoid people coming into his home.

JMO.

 

[Cherwell]

Oh, you mean Mrs Van Der Merwe. Right. This lady:

It doesn't matter - she heard screaming that she thought was a woman, but it was Oscar. Therefore, Oscar screams like a woman unless she is lying.

That's a very flawed piece of reasoning, if I may say so. We don't know that it was Oscar at all. We know that her husband thought it was Oscar, but he might be mistaken. There is no proof here that he "screams like a woman" (when did Mr Van der Merwe hear him screaming?!) and no reason to think Mrs VDM is lying. She described what she heard.

 

[Trooper]

It doesn't matter - she heard screaming that she thought was a woman, but it was Oscar. Therefore, Oscar screams like a woman unless she is lying.

This claim just doesn't make sense.. Mrs Van Der Merwe testified that she heard a woman screaming.. her husband, SHE testified , thought it was Oscar. The Husband hasn't testified it was Oscar.. it was merely his opinion as relayed to his wife..Mrs VD M didn't say she agreed with her husbands opinion on this.. to claim it definitively WAS Oscar because an untestified third party floated an opinion to his wife is pretty thin..

 

[curiousjo]

Any chance that OP called Standar to help him remove the body... but the guards and doctor showed up, so plan failed.

 

[sorrell skye]

I think you misunderstand what I mean by bias. First of all, everyone is biased because of their perceptions and beliefs, so it is not a criticism to say that someone's testimony is biased. I do not think that Burger was lying on the stand, but I do believe her perceptions and recollections have been influenced over the last year according to her own admission that Oscar was lying in his account and she thinks him guilty.

When Oscar testifies, I will likely say the same thing of him and his witnesses. Oscar obviously will want to make himself look good and avoid conviction - so his testimony will be suspect before he ever opens his mouth. If he is guilty of premeditated murder, I think that will become more clear as the trial progresses because he will not be able to reasonably explain away everything.

I think Oscar is getting good representation - the witnesses say what they say, and there's no preparation that can change that. How well prepared he defense is will be revealed when they put on their case - but so far, I think Roux has done a good job in his cross-examination.

BBM

To say that Ms. Burger accused OP of lying and that she thinks he's guilty is a total misrepresentation of what the witness testified to under oath.

At no time did she state that OP was lying, nor did she ever accuse OP of being guilty, even when Roux tried to imply that she was calling OP a liar. She said that she could only testify to what she heard, and that OP could testify to what he says happened.

 

[Trooper]

Any chance that OP called Standar to help him remove the body... but the guards and doctor showed up, so plan failed.

its not an improbable theory...

he goes downstairs to open the front door for the ambulance he says he told Standar to call.

Logic compels me to believe it was Oscar who started up his own car, with his own keys ( which he obviously had handy) while it's parked in the driveway blocking Reevas car ( she arrived there first that night ) and opened the doors....

given that its panic situation to the max... to query as to why, having started up the car he didn't move it out of the way, just slam it into reverse and push it onto the lawn , the garden beds, anywhere for an unimpeded track for the ambulance to pull up to the front door.. I'll pass that onto panic,

But Standar not ringing an ambulance when Oscar says he directed him to do so is a bit harder to fathom..

enough to impute a negative quality??

60/40 for me on that one.

 

[sorrell skye]

Just an aside: OP's driveway is wide enough that there would be ample room for at least 2 cars to be parked side by side.

Photo of the driveway @ link below (Warning!!! Graphic crime scene photo of the bathroom is also included in the article).

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-what-really-happened/story-fndir2ev-1226843963931

 

[Trooper]

So we know that when Baba called Oscar, Oscar told him "everything is fine."

When Baba sees Oscar for the first time, he is carrying Reeva downstairs.

Knowing that security called him, Oscar knows that someone is coming. He probably also presumes that other people will have heard the gunshots. In short, he knows that PEOPLE are coming.

Oscar picks Reeva up and takes her down the stairs.

JMO but I think he did this b/c he did NOT want SEVERAL witnesses to what position Reeva was lying in, what was the position of the cricket bat, gun - general state of the bathroom.

He wanted to avoid people coming into his home.

JMO.

while Dr Stipp was trying vainly to find signs of life on Reevas body, Oscar slips upstairs...what for? Stipps instinct was the Oscar was going to kill himself. He made sure he knew if the gun was secured.. doesn't mean ALL guns in the house were secured and out of Oscars grasp.

Dr Stipp testified that at some stage while frantically checking Reeva, he asked no specific person had an ambulance been called.. Standar says yes. .. now.. he was directed to by Oscar, Oscar says..

Baba says Standar then, after telling Dr Stipp and ambulance has been called, then directs Baba to call an ambulance..

perhaps Standar meant he was in the process of having an ambulance summoned .. to delegate this job.

Ms Standar and Mr Stander were very concerned, in Dr Stipps testimony that no press, or police be involved. Dr Stipps main priority was an ambulance order, hence his interjection amid this discussion re press, police etc about the ambulance call..

 

[Trooper]

Just an aside: OP's driveway is wide enough that there would be ample room for at least 2 cars to be parked side by side.

Photo of the driveway @ link below (Warning!!! Graphic crime scene photo of the bathroom is also included in the article).

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-pistorius-trial-what-really-happened/story-fndir2ev-1226843963931

thanks for that, skye.. I couldn't find the darn pic.. I wonder which side Reeva parked her car?? closest to the door? or was that Oscars preferred position?? who knows?

she went out with a load of laundry, came back.. just wonder if it was her car parked on the near side of the driveway.. near in relation to the front door.

 

[zqtpie]

Yes, but a gunshot sounds like a cricket bat, and a cricket bat sounds like a gunshot, according to Dr Stipp who heard both.

Insisting that there is zero possibility that they sound the same is dogmatic insistence. You have provided a nice illustration of the concept.

My take on it was that when Roux posited to Dr Stipp that the first sounds were gunshots and, therefore,it followed that a cricket bat must have made the second sounds...if you compared the two, would you say they sounded alike? In that scenario, what else could Dr Stipp do but agree that A sounded like B.

And, I find that Nel has missed a lot of opportunities to keep Roux in check...perhaps since he is not playing to a jury can we assume that M'Lady sees all this for what it is...that she's seeing it all in perspective even when Roux is doing his level best to cram Oscar's version down everybody's throat, no matter how much they resist. Nel seems too intimidated to object to much. Certainly not a bull dog that one.