OR OR - David 'Dave' Lewis, 46, Ashland, 4 September 2008

[Lilibet]

Warning! This post is an attempt to break the record for the longest post ever on WS. I advise the reader to have a cup of coffee (or two) in hand before reading any further.

(Also, much of the content taken from the article linked in the post above has been paraphrased or summarized so as to not violate WS TOS)..

The article linked above drives me crazy. It might seem nit-picky on my part, but nowhere in the article is Captain Smith or JCSO Moran quoted as saying that the two crimes are linked or connected.

Nowhere does either officer state, on the record, that the crimes are connected. So how did the reporter get that impression? Only Smith’s statement: “we have persons of interest” even comes close, and it is a far cry from an affirmation.

In the article it seems that it is the REPORTER [who perhaps suspects (or maybe even hopes?) that there is a link between the two crimes (a much better story, perhaps?)] - who confirms for us readers that there is a link - not officers Smith or Moran.

The reporter doesn’t tell us how he/she knows or learns for a fact that the two crimes are “connected”. The article is written - and reads - as if it is just the reporter’s impression.

I guess we are supposed to presume that Smith or Moran said something: nodded their heads, winked, - or maybe just didn’t deny it when the reporter mentioned it? Idk. The reader left is left to decide for themself..

Did the reporter even ASK that question? “Are the two crimes related?” We can’t tell from the article. We are left with hearsay from the reporter. Really shoddy reporting imo.

I’m not asking for Smith or Moran to give us a specific link is. I’m not demanding details. I don’t want to compromise the investigations. I just want to hear Smith or Moran, - or any directly involved (active) investigator - state (be quoted), ON THE RECORD, that Dave Lewis’s murder and Troy Dean Carney’s murder are without question, undeniably connected by factual evidence.

Why do I feel I have a right to demand such a statement (before blindly agreeing the crimes are connected)? Because we have read articles in the past, written supposedly by similarly qualified reporters quoting supposedly similarly qualified LE saying there’s no link between the two crimes AT ALL. None.

From the article we learn that:

-two crimes were committed miles apart (by my calc’s they were approx 20 miles apart)
-the two crimes were shocking

-Capt Smith spent many agonizing months investigating
-LE “investigated both cases very thoroughly and looked for all the similarities and connections. People connections, things connections.” (and..?)

-TDC was camping on the BCG near Central Pointe and Table Rock Rd
-TDC’s body was found three days after he’d been seen on Pilot Truck Stop cctv
-TDC was asleep in his sleeping bag, “we didn’t find anybody who says they heard a gunshot”

(Any hint so far (from LE) that there is any connection? Anything said by LE so far that you think might’ve given the reporter the impression that the two crimes were somehow connected? No? Let’s read on..)

-Investigators searched for clues at nearby transient camps (and..?)

-at one camp a strange item caught their eye, a yellow and black Wolverine mask
-you can find the mask on the cover of a comic book showing a mutant emerging..
-it was found in a campsite and “it was so distinctive we thought we might be able to locate witnesses camped there..”
-LE tracked down the mask’s owner with the help of DNA
-as for why the mask was at the campsite, police never asked
-“We did not make any connection.”

(Huh?!, then why have we been reading about a Wolverine mask and a comic book with a mutant emerging..? I would define this as a reporter dangling carrot; a reporter red herring, if there is such a thing. 20/20 sometimes does it to stretch a 15 minute story into a 2 hour episode)

(Btw I still don’t think we’ve heard anything from either officer that would lead a reporter to believe there’s a connection)

-Mike Moran with JCSO said: “As with a lot of things and any crimes you go to, things are not as they appear”
(Note to self: I wonder what in this case he thinks is not as it appears?)

-“little did police know, two fires on Dead Indian Memorial Rd would spark a 12 year investigation” (and..?)

-the first fire was at around 4 am at an empty cabin near Hyatt Lake
-the second, 3 hrs later, was a few miles down the road at the home of 46 yo Dave Lewis
-both blazes (on DIMR) were separately set
-both blazes (on DIMR) were intentionally set
-Moran says “why a fire erupted at a vacant cabin is something investigators still don’t understand” (note: they are comparing only the two DIME fires on 9/4)

-the second fire was more sinister

-two men found on same day (my add: true, but kind of misleading if the writer is suggesting a connection. The men were not MURDERED on the same day.. and the fires were not set on same day.)

-DL’s cause of death was a bullet wound
-“two men found on the same day, both shot to death” (note: but not SHOT on the same day)

(Again, I wonder why LE thinks the above statement somehow connects the two crimes? Maybe it was just the reporter who took it that way? The two men were not shot on the same day. The bullets did not match. The fires were 9 days apart. The men did not know each other. I guess you can always find something in common if you look hard enough and ignore any evidence to the contrary).

-as far as police could determine, Carney and Lewis didn’t know each other

(Note: still can’t find a statement made by either LE officer that would explain how the reporter could have gotten the impression that the crimes were related)

-9 days later a third fire where Carney was murdered
-Capt Smith asks: “why would someone 9 days later start a fire to destroy evidence when the could potentially do it sooner?”

(note: we know the fire was intentionally set… but what makes LE think the fire was even set for the purpose of covering up evidence? They’ve never said)

-Moran responds: “only the suspect or eyewitness will have those pieces of information” (so I guess they DON’T know why the fire was set. Or why it was set when it was set..)

-“trying to connect the dots today, Moran says, is a fruitless effort” (hmm. sounds like an admission that there’s no point in continuing the investigation. Does that mean it’s a cold case - or am I missing something?)

-but “we’ll never give up hope that someday, someone will come forward” (my add: and tell us what happened?)

-“it’s very troubling that someone would go to these lengths to commit this crime”

-Today there are no new leads and no new suspects in the murders

So how did the reporter get the impression from Interviewing those two LE officers that “they are connected”? It is beyond me.

(And another note: what happened to “persons of interest”, “people connections, things connections”? Was it those statements that gave the reporter the impression or vibe that the two crimes were connected? Because I can find nothing else that either officer said that would even come close to giving that impression)

LE (not the press) has had over 15 years… — not to specifically tell us why or how -- but just to state, on the record, that the two cases are connected. They have not done so. The only person who has ever stated that the two cases are connected is a reporter - who provided no statement from LE to substantiate his/her claim. I call that just an impression.

All jmo

Ha ha! It was worth the long read. Your very organized analysis is excellent. Somehow I have you pegged as an attorney.

The funny thing is that I had noticed the same thing regarding no direct quotes. I hoped it was just the young reporter trying to condense the story and make it more interesting (click bait), but I did wonder if it was just her opinion about a connection. I‘ve felt it was a stretch to connect the two, but I’m open to it being possible. In any case, it’s an open question IMO.

Both cases are considered cold cases on the JCSO website. They do look into them periodically, especially Dave’s case since it’s considered more “solvable” according to another article I recall.

 

[Lilibet]

The only “connection“ I can think of between Dave’s and Troy’s murders is a possible motive to keep them from talking about something they knew. I don’t mean that they both knew the same thing or that it was the same murderer. But both murders seem to have required stealth and focus to accomplish a particular purpose. Troy was asleep in a hidden sleeping bag. (I’d like to know who found him.) Both were shot in the head, which indicates to me that Dave was also possibly asleep.
If this article from 9/4/08 is accurate, Dave was killed in his bedroom...asleep?

One man dead, two homes burned in early-morning fires | KDRV

web.archive.org

“The second [fire] occurred at a home about six miles away, where the body of a man was found in one of the bedrooms.”

 

[Lilibet]

If you read the article, it is about Central Point State Police ( also on Dave's case ) and DA Beth Heckert ( would be the person who brings charges against the murderer's)

FYI

OSP hid repeated use of racist slur by supervisor, other misconduct in Central Point field office

An Oregon State Police trooper demoted from sergeant for repeatedly using a racist slur for years smiled brightly from a promotional photo posted to Facebook to recruit new officers.

www.rv-times.com

District Attorney needs to bring charges

Free Read

The RV Times is only free if you register. I listened to the article (23 seconds) and it has nothing to do with Beth Heckert and nothing to do with Dave’s murder, even remotely.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

We have never ever thought LW is involved in these heinous murders! <modsnip: discussing former member>

<Modsnip: quoted post was snipped> The archived blog about Dave did the same vague “code-talking” years ago. <modsnip> the rest of us are merely trying to make sense of it. So per this latest post, we can discard this innuendo at last, I assume?

 

[Lilibet]

Or reverse the above. Best information we trust from Troy's mom who says no link. Phone records from his phone would help.

But, workers at Hyatt Lake said Dave and owner(s) got into an argument, over a man, fitting Troy's description. Dave let him use the facilities... supposedly true story.
That sounds like Dave.


moo imo lmnop

I would hope you’ve told LE about this supposedly true story about Dave getting into an argument with HL owners about Dave supposedly letting someone fitting Troy’s description use the facilities. Who told this story? When did it happen? We’ve never heard this before. Why now?

 

[Lilibet]

We have never ever thought LW is involved in these heinous murders! <modsnip: discussing a former member>

IMO MOO

We do think Sheriff Michael S. Winters was a bad sheriff. The following Sheriff, Corey Falls report ( previously documented here ) stated an investigator's opinion, as well as, deputies vote of no-confidence and posts of, " he ruled through fear and intimidation," even locking off upper offices. We hope he can find his way to being a better man.

Maybe this will help.

Jackson County Sheriff's Office LE Policies
CRIMINAL JUSTICE CODE OF ETHICS
As a criminal justice officer, my fundamental duty is to serve humankind; to safeguard lives and property; to protect all persons against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; and to respect the Constitutional rights of all people to liberty, equality and justice.
I will keep my private life unsullied as an example to all; maintain courageous calm in the face of danger, scorn, or ridicule; develop self-restraint; and be constantly mindful of the welfare of others. Honest in thought and deed in both my personal and official life, I will be exemplary in obeying the laws of the land and the regulations of my department. Whatever I see or hear of a confidential nature or that is confided to me in my official capacity will be kept ever secret unless revelation is necessary in the performance of my duty.
I will never act officiously or permit personal feelings, prejudices, animosities or friendships to influence my decisions. Without compromise and with relentlessness, I will uphold the laws affecting the duties of my profession courteously and appropriately without fear or favor, malice or ill will, never employing unnecessary force or violence, and never accepting gratuities.
I recognize my position as a symbol of public faith, and I accept it, as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of The Criminal Justice System. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession."

https://cms2.revize.com/revize/jacksoncountyor/Document%20Center/Departments/Sheriff/About%20Us/Document%20Center/RELEASE_20230308_T170939_Jackson%20County%20SO%20Policy%20Manual.pdf

The publication date for this code of ethics is March 2023, long after MW’s time in office. I expect it was similar in his day, but it’s not relevant to his actions regarding Dave’s murder unless you can make a direct connection.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Interesting. If the account is true, do you think the person who Dave let use the facilities was Troy?

And if the above is true, and if it was Troy, do you think Troy was perhaps killed because he saw something he shouldn’t have seen while at HL? If so (again) what?

And if ALL of the above is true, the next logical step I think would be to suggest that the same person who killed Troy felt they had to kill Dave because Dave knew who had killed Troy?

I know, I’m rambling. And all jmo

BBM

Not to mention the fact that whoever killed Troy had to know where he slept hidden under bushes. That would require following him without being noticed, I would think.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

Well,
So many fires (all of a sudden?) happening mere days apart look suspicious to me.
Not to mention murders

JMO

Yes, it does look suspicious @Dotta, which is why a connection has been explored. It’s extremely bizarre.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

Yes, it does look suspicious @Dotta, which is why a connection has been explored. It’s extremely bizarre.

JMO

Getting to know
(on this thread)
about drugs ops in this area,
I'm starting to believe the truth lies there.

JMO

 

[Sleuth2010]

The publication date for this code of ethics is March 2023, long after MW’s time in office. I expect it was similar in his day, but it’s not relevant to his actions regarding Dave’s murder unless you can make a direct connection.
JMO

AOK, here you go: tip-of-the-iceberg regarding conduct and MSW abilities, especially re: his friend, Dave's body-burning!!! investigation:

" Jackson County, Ore.- A review requested by Jackson County after Sheriff Corey Falls filed a complaint of discrimination, appears to question former Sheriff Mike Winters’ leadership.

• Sheriff Winters ordered part of the Jackson County Jail to open during a re-election campaign even though an assessment showed it wasn’t feasible to do so.
• Sheriff Winters threatened the jobs of command dissenters.
• The ability to perform background checks was compromised in the effort to open the basement of the jail. As a result some staff weren’t suitable for hire and should have been rejected.
• Traffic deputies were informed not to enforce DUII as it didn’t generate enough revenue.
• Criminal traffic citations were cited into Justice Court in order to generate more revenue.

While the authors of the review did not directly address the claims, they do say in a footnote later in the review, Winters,

“…continuation of what he did as an Oregon State trooper without apparent change or personal growth was not in keeping with the needs of an agency ( JCSO) of this size nor a community of the size and with the needs of Jackson County.”

The review further states, “Sheriff Winters neglected managerial and leadership issues core to his office, and often promoted based on a ‘Good-Ole-Boy’ network.”

Finally, the authors conclude “Sheriff Winters did not perform the functions deemed to be essential to the position he held."

Mike Winters' leadership questioned in county review - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

Jackson County, Ore.- A review requested by Jackson County after Sheriff Corey Falls filed a complaint of discrimination, appears to question former Sheriff Mike Winters’ leadership. Winters is one of six candidates vying to fill the Sheriff’s position for the next two years. At a county...

kobi5.com

 

[Sleuth2010]

<modsnip> The archived blog about Dave did the same vague “code-talking” years ago. <modsnip> the rest of us are merely trying to make sense of it. So per this latest post, we can discard this innuendo at last, I assume?

Never any innuendo about law enforcement
only about a very hubris filled sheriff, overseeing Dave Lewis' murder and arson investigation.

Granny Code-Talking Quote:
-Don't try to defend the indefensible-


" Winters said in court documents Oachs threatened to sue Jackson County. “Since I firmly believed (Franklin) violated Oachs’ Fourth Amendment rights and that a judge and jury would find in Oachs’ favor at trial, I elected to have county counsel settle Oachs’ claim expeditiously and in order to avoid a lawsuit and the added taxpayer expense asso- ciated therewith.”
Oachs was paid $30,000 in a July 2009 set- tlement, Merten said."

https://www.kafourymcdougal.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/kafoury_mcdougal_jacob_franklin_mail_tribune_10262011.pdf

IMO OMO MOO

 

[Lilibet]

AOK, here you go: tip-of-the-iceberg regarding conduct and MSW abilities, especially re: his friend, Dave's body-burning!!! investigation:

Never any innuendo about law enforcement
only about a very hubris filled sheriff, overseeing Dave Lewis' murder and arson investigation.

Thanks for both of these posts @Sleuth2010. I was aware of the information in both and I think it’s clear now that you are pointing out MW’s deficits in character and abilities. Although there is no direct proof that the investigation into Dave’s murder was impacted by MW’s character/ability flaws, I can certainly see why you believe it was. “When someone shows you who they are believe them the first time.” (Maya Angelou) I’ve sensed over the years that you believe he protected certain people who may have been involved. The info in your two posts supports that possibility, although unfortunately we don’t have proof. That’s what makes both Dave’s and Troy’s cases so maddening.

Regarding MW, he lost me when he appeared on a TV show about the fight against marijuana growers.

Weed Country

Watch clips and full episodes of Weed Country from Discovery

www.discovery.com

This review by a cannabis blog slams the show and particularly MW. I’m all for eradicating large illegal grows, but this show was ridiculous and having your county sheriff playing a role was cringeworthy IMO. Talk about hubris!

Weed Country: Another "Non-Reality" Reality Show On Marijuana

By Keith Mansur, Oregon Cannabis Connection "Weed Country", a new reality series about a famous marijuana region in California, premiered Wednesday

theweedblog.com

The most ridiculous law enforcement statements came from Sheriff Mike Winters, who hates marijuana and thinks it is the downfall of America. He seems to believe he can end the war on drugs, even if he does it alone.

In reference to those who believe in marijuana legalization and controlling it like alcohol, Winters said, “I don’t believe it. I’ve seen a decline, in my opinion, of America from great to good. I don’t want to see it decline.”

“Drugs are going to be the downfall of this country, and I’m going to stop it,” Winters further exclaimed to the camera.

Discovery Channel even edited a segment together with images of Mexican cartel busts, a body on gurney, and images of weapons. It made it appear the medical marijuana grows were creating the problems. In the scene, Sheriff Winters even implied “people” are using MS13 gang members to protect their gardens and that there had been “officer involved” shootings.

 

[Calcano]

@Sleuth2010, you say you have tried to share facts and truth..

Could you, in very specific terms, with names or links or sources of info or other evidence, please expound upon and clarify, your statement (above):

“They even had a meeting about him at The Lindsay Ranch on 9/3/2008. BMcN and his wife (JPe’) were trying to buy it…along-side with Lily Glen Horse Corral Government Lease.”

Who had a meeting?
A meeting about Dave?
Who called or organized the meeting?
Who attended the meeting?
Was Dave there?
How do you know about this meeting? (or how did you come to learn about this meeting?).
How do you know what the meeting was about?
How do you know who was in attendance?
How do you know what “they” were trying to do?

You suggested that BMcN and his wife were trying to buy “it”
Specifically, what is “it”?
Dave’s property?
Lindsay Ranch?
One or both, plus Lily Glen?
“… along-side with Lily Glen Horse Corral Government Lease”?
Were they trying to buy the Horse Corral?
The government lease? The ranch? Dave’s property?
Why do you think they were trying to do whatever you think they were trying to do?

And what would any of the above have to do with Dave’s murder overnight?

Please be very specific and provide facts or sources (you can use initials) for your information. And please, no speaking about the wind or how love triumphs over all. Nothing abstract. Only facts that can be supported that will help others on WS help solve the case. We all have the same desire - to find out who murdered Dave Lewis and bring them to justice.

Thanks very much in advance.

All jmo

I would love to hear the answers to these great questions. Respectfully, I've been having an extremely difficult time understanding @Sleuth2010 's posts which is a shame because as a verified insider I would love to learn more about what they have to share with us, if they want to. Not that it's anyone's fault, just differences in styles of communication.

 

[Lilibet]

I would love to hear the answers to these great questions. Respectfully, I've been having an extremely difficult time understanding @Sleuth2010 's posts which is a shame because as a verified insider I would love to learn more about what they have to share with us, if they want to. Not that it's anyone's fault, just differences in styles of communication.

I second this request.

 

[Gemmie]

I second this request.

+2

 

[Dotta]

+2

Is 3 already a crowd?

Or is it 4?
Ooops - 5 !!!

 

[Sleuth2010]

Plus 3 !!!
Lilly and Gemmie, please continue to help solve these heinous, Godforsaken crimes! Murder is one crime, body burning is repugnant. Arson all over the Rogue Valley. It's sickening. Unbelievable really.

Please answer the excellent questions previously posted... to the best of your abilities. As both long-haulers on WS and having followed / been considerate of both victims, my bet is you see and know a lot. About DEL and TDC.

That would be so great and give newbies help too ! TY in advance.
Imagine the relief when all killer(s) co-conspirators are brought to justice in shiny bracelets. RELIEF killers off our streets.

imo moo omo

 

[Gemmie]

Is 3 already a crowd?

Or is it 4?
Ooops - 5 !!!

I guess it would suffice to say we all would like answers to @Rush4087's Q's.

 

[Gemmie]

Plus 3 !!!
Lilly and Gemmie, please continue to help solve these heinous, Godforsaken crimes! Murder is one crime, body burning is repugnant. Arson all over the Rogue Valley. It's sickening. Unbelievable really.

Please answer the excellent questions previously posted... to the best of your abilities. As both long-haulers on WS and having followed / been considerate of both victims, my bet is you see and know a lot. About DEL and TDC.

That would be so great and give newbies help too ! TY in advance.
Imagine the relief when all killer(s) co-conspirators are brought to justice in shiny bracelets. RELIEF killers off our streets.

imo moo omo

Huh? Those questions were directed to you per Rush's post. LOL It said...

@Sleuth2010, you say you have tried to share facts and truth..

Could you, in very specific terms, with names or links or sources of info or other evidence, please expound upon and clarify, your statement (above):

<snip>

Here's a link to the actual post with the Q's outlined:

OR - OR - David 'Dave' Lewis, 46, Ashland, 4 September 2008

ADMIN NOTE: Nobody has been officially named by LE to be POI or suspect in this case. Websleuths is victim friendly, and under that policy Dave's family members are considered victims. This discussion has been rife with insinuations, direct or veiled / indirect accusations against a member of...

www.websleuths.com

Looking forward to your answers!

 

[Dotta]

To tell the truth, I would be very cautious.
I would only talk to LE in total secret
The murderer/s can be still roaming these roads

But really....
I somehow feel that whoever commited the crime/s might be already dead (drug addiction) or moved far away.

I'm pessimistic as far as this case is concerned.

JMO