Decomp smell **REVISIT**

[Pegster57]

So then how *do* pathologists and funeral home employees deal with it as it must be quite common in their everyday lives?

My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

 

[Celt1997]

My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

It makes me think of the scene in Silence of the Lambs where they all put the cream under their nose to mask the smell. It was kind of funny, though, in a dark way, that the coroner didn't put any on. I guess when you smell it enough, it's just part of the job.

 

[Manny]

I would almost bet they have every intention of allowing the jurors to smell the car. I would bet it smells as bad if not worse today than it did in the first days that it was confiscated.

I thought I read somewhere that the car had been completely dismantled. Every inch of the car had been tested for various things. My only interest in the odor was the time line for Caylee's death.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Well, if the odor permeated the car's interior, then just keep it locked up in the heat until trial and let the jurors take a sniff for themselves. It will still be there.

Superb idea. And Essies even if you're right, let the jurors smell a well preserved sample, just a waft of a scrap. They'll keel over, but when they come back around they can rule out squirrels or pizza. JMHO

 

[4oneluv]

I tend to agree. CA's reasoning (there was no odor) won't cut it.

Cindy A is the one that reported the smell in the car when they picked it up, she knew at that point that something had happened. Now she is saying that it was pizza, hard rock dried pizza does not smell like "a damn body has been in the car" :bang: She knew what she was dealing with at that point.

 

[Friday]

People, we're laboring under a huge false assumption here--one that is defeating our efforts to pin down the dates when Caylee's body could have been in the trunk...

Unlike other odors, the smell of human decomp in an enclosed area doesn't weaken after the body is removed, it grows stronger~

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

I only read through the first 150 messages on this topic, so if this point has already been made, I apologize for the redundancy.

 

[kgeaux]

My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

One of my dear friends is a police officer, and he says he uses Vicks for very bad cases, cases in which there is extensive decomp: in the normal case, he says the nose becomes overwhelmed with the smell very quickly, and within a couple of minutes, you aren't aware of the smell anymore.

With extensive decomp, he says the smell overwhelms even the Vicks and gets into your clothes and hair: he leaves autopsies to go home and shower and change. He has thrown away clothes he was wearing during an autopsy on a body that had been in the water for a while.....

 

[kgeaux]

Respectfully snipped and bolded by me:



After the body was removed from the closed-up car, the smell of decomp wouldn't just linger, it would grow stronger.

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

 

[treeseeker]

I'm not an expert, but my best understanding is that any fluid in the liner would continue to emit odor, and the ratio of chemicals found after sealing the liner in a bag, would be the signature for human decomp. Even dried fluids would continue to emit odorous particles, although at a slower rate than wet. If there had been no fluid, I don't think the air testing would have been as valuable given the time passed.

Bodies sometimes liquify after death, depending on environment, and they usually evacuate, which causes the initial odor. I hate to be gross, but post-mortem evacuation can be very foul, if any time has passed since death.

IMO, the FBI report we've seen is very preliminary and incomplete. Another poster, who knows more than me, was able to adjust the approx. time of death based on real FL temps rather than the averages used. I'm sure the final FBI report will also be more accurate re temp/environmental conditions.

 

[Friday]

People, we're laboring under a huge false assumption here--one that is defeating our efforts to pin down the dates when Caylee's body could have been in the trunk...

Unlike other odors, the smell of human decomp in an enclosed area doesn't weaken after the body is removed, it grows stronger~

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

I only read through the first 150 messages on this topic, so if this point has already been made, I apologize for the redundancy.

Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

They didn't say why, but there are many science-oriented experts here at WS that could answer that question. Please ask them, I'd love to know too, but am on an awful work deadline.

 

[Advocate4]

I've been meaning to ask this question: why would human decomp smell any different than the decomp of an animal of similar size? Specifically, a "mammal" of similar size to humans? We are mammals too, so I don't quite see why human decomp smell would differ particularly from that of another mammal.

***Would Really Like An Answer if Anyone Knows***

 

[BondJamesBond]

Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

OK. I don't have a background in forensics, but, a little knowledge of biology. Here's a hack of an answer that can be fixed by more knowlegable...

The decomp odor is a byproduct of bacteria digesting the tissue. The bacteria continue to multiply while the 'food source' is present. They multiply at an exponential rate, IOW, population doubles each generation, and the larger population consumes the tissue and generates a larger volume of byproduct...this continues until the tissue is depleted and that bacteria die. Hence, trace amounts of tissue left behind after the body has been removed serve to keep the bacterial colony, and decomp byproduct, growing for a period of time.

This link does a decent job of describing the cycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth

Also worth noting that cadaver dogs' threshold for detecting the decomp odor is much, much lower than ours.

 

[TruthSeeker]

It is possible that the tow truck driver didn't smell it because it had been sitting outside and exposed to the air? I thought the car was locked, so he could not have gotten in to the car. Perhaps after it was sitting in the garage at tow yard for two weeks (inside of the garage) the smell accumulated.

The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?

 

[Pink Panther]

The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?

Cindy tried to imply this and until the first document dump came out, everyone assumed that the car was left unlocked. It wasn't. It was locked.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Cindy tried to imply this and until the first document dump came out, everyone assumed that the car was left unlocked. It wasn't. It was locked.

Thank you! I remembered much discussion about this but did not remember where the info came from about the purse, car unlocked.

 

[Bev]

What might be confusing people here is that the trunk liner and trunk carpet are two different things. When fluids leaked in the trunk they went from the carpet fibers through the carpet backing and then on to the plastic trunk liner. No matter how many times the carpet was washed unless the carpet backing and the liner was washed too, the odour would keep getting worse. To remove the odour completely you would have to replace the carpet and the plastic liner because plastic will absorb odour.

Secondly, the report isn't saying that the odour was such that they can tell how long the body might have been in the car, they're saying that the ratio of calcium to magnesium detected after the LIBS test indicated a post mortem intervel of 2.6 days - the body was in the car for 2.6 days before she disposed of it.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Secondly, the report isn't saying that the odour was such that they can tell how long the body might have been in the car, they're saying that the ratio of calcium to magnesium detected after the LIBS test indicated a post mortem intervel of 2.6 days - the body was in the car for 2.6 days before she disposed of it.

*snipped*

Bev - my apologies, I'm slow...

Is the 2.6 days determination, a delta vs. time of death, or delta time into vs. out of trunk? I was thinking (maybe erroneously) that the ratio fixed the delta vs. time of death...IOW...the latest fix of the stain = 2.6 days after t.o.d., whether the clock was stopped by (a) removing the body, (b) encapsulating the body in plastic/container, etc., or (c) something I haven't thought of yet.

Very important to understand the difference, IMHO. For example, LP floating theory about 6/25 and bag tearing upon removal from car resulting in stain would be easily debunked if the ratio is a delta to baseline @ t.o.d., however, if stain was created prior to encapsulation (e.g. "b" above) and there was no bag tear, then, there's still some plausbility to a later removal date.

Without knowing the extent of the stain other than "basketball size", I assume it is also possibly the result of diffusion through the wall of encapsulation without mechanically breaching it.

I want to assume this is delta vs. t.o.d....please set me straight.

TIA!

 

[Bev]

I keep trying to explain this in understandable terms and for some reason keep missing the mark. I'll try again -

The LIBS test is a laser induced breakdown spectroscopy test. It is fairly new in forensics and although the claims are fairly well proven that it is even more reliable than carbon dating the defense experts will go after it tooth and nail. It directs a laser directily over the surface of the sample - it doesn't touch the sample or damage it in any way the way other tests need to destroy the sample in order to test it. (There are negotiations underway to use it to test the Shroud of Turin which is a whole other story but for those interested in forensics it is well worth the research.)
Another reason why it is becoming the preferred test in dating is because unlike the gas chromography, the LIBS tests inorganic as well as organic elements. I'm not even going to attempt to explain how it works, there is plenty of literature out there, although, again for those interested in forensics, they're developing a portable LIBS which would be a huge breakthrough in calculating time of death.

So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.

LP does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. If it had been a bag tear on the 25th to the 27th, the ratio of calcium to magnesium would have reflected that.

By the way, the worst thing KC could have done if she tried to clean the trunk was to scrub at the stain - all that would have accomplished is to push the chemicals further into the carpet backing and onto the lining of the trunk. It's like that mysterious stain that keeps reappearing on the carpet in your house, not matter how many times you've scrubbed it - you've just pushed it into the backing and the padding and everytime someone walks on it the pressure is displacing the spill or whatever.

 

[aeli2468]

So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.

Bev - thanks so much for explaining this. now I think I see where the 2.6 days is coming from. glad some WSer's have better science/forensic knowledge than me

 

[BondJamesBond]

I keep trying to explain this in understandable terms and for some reason keep missing the mark. I'll try again -


So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.

LP does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. If it had been a bag tear on the 25th to the 27th, the ratio of calcium to magnesium would have reflected that.

*snipped* & bold by me

Bev - thanks again for sharing, the meticulous explanation, and your patience.

So...to confirm my understanding...the ratio is cumulative (based on degree-days) and is extrapolated back to the time of death.

Question is...the ending point is based on when the body is no longer in contact w/ the sample surface...correct? IOW, the ratio is set by the stage (cumulative degree-days) of decomp at precisely that last date & time of contact w/ the sample surface.

In side-by-side analysis and oversimplifying by assuming all other things equal:

Sample A: Body goes into trunk @ T.O.D. (t=0) and stays there continuously until t=2.6 days, The Ca/Mg of the sample will be higher than that of Sample B.

Sample B: Body goes into trunk @ T.O.D. (t=0), is removed for the period t=1day through t=2days, to an area cooler than the trunk, then, is replaced in the trunk for the period t=2days through t=2.6 days. The Ca/Mg of the sample will be lower than that of Sample A.

Sample C: Same as Sample B except when the body goes back into the trunk @ t=2 days it is effectively encapsulated in plastic, etc., then removed @ t=2.6days. The effective Ca/Mg of this sample stain is that of t=2 days, and lower than Sample B, correct?

If I have this correct, the "2.6 days" is a direct function of degree-days, hence, the temperature history of the environment to which the body was exposed plays a vital role in establishing the exact date/time of the last known exposure of the body to the stain via Ca/Mg ratio. The "2.6 days" provided is simply a benchmark using the approximate degree-days environment of the trunk for the entire duration since t=0 until the stage of decomp consistent w/ the Ca/Mg ratio measured (some have adjusted w/ more granular data).

TIA!