All About Chloroform#2

[fortytwo]

One has to look at the English language (the proper version) as a Geshtalt:

Art, as much as science. Worked and reworked down through the centuries to be a thing of beauty!
It is barbarity to mess with a work of art, just for streamlining.
Faced with shipping weight restrictions would you lop the left gonad, off Michael Angelo's David?

Didn't the Germans get there first?

At any rate I think the linguist term you're searching for is "creole". Quite obviously British English doesn't satisfy the requirements of a creole as it has no spice (If you'd ever had Creole cooking you'd understand that.) England's most credible effort at spice was the Spice Girls, and we all know how that worked out.

 

[Rumpole]

Didn't the Germans get there first?

At any rate I think the linguist term you're searching for is "creole". Quite obviously British English doesn't satisfy the requirements of a creole as it has no spice (If you'd ever had Creole cooking you'd understand that.) England's most credible effort at spice was the Spice Girls, and we all know how that worked out.

What about the single mst popular and iconic British dish:


CURRY!!

 

[fortytwo]

What about the single mst popular and iconic British dish:


CURRY!!

Oh, please. That was outright cultural theft and nothing more.

It's common knowledge that if Marco Polo (a Venetian, I might point out) hadn't discovered the Suez Canal then the Brits would still be spicing their food with powdered Irish (ref; " A Modest Proposal", Jonathan Swift, 1729).

"Hell is a place where the politicians are French, the police are German, and the cooks are English." (no attribution)

 

[Rumpole]

Oh, please. That was outright cultural theft and nothing more.

It's common knowledge that if Marco Polo (a Venetian, I might point out) hadn't discovered the Suez Canal then the Brits would still be spicing their food with powdered Irish (ref; " A Modest Proposal", Jonathan Swift, 1729).

"Hell is a place where the politicians are French, the police are German, and the cooks are English." (no attribution)

My biggest worry would be what the yanks might be doing in that hell?

 

[fortytwo]

My biggest worry would be what the yanks might be doing in that hell?

Buying off the politicians, dodging the police (or have I got that backwards?) and going down the street to the Creole restaurant.

 

[Rumpole]

Buying off the politicians, dodging the police (or have I got that backwards?) and going down the street to the Creole restaurant.

I think you'll find that they will be freeing the people and "helping" them to chose democracy?

 

[fortytwo]

I think you'll find that they will be freeing the people and "helping" them to chose democracy?

Well, I can't disagree with that.

 

[kiki the parrot]

In case you thought this might be off topic, I wanted to share with you so that we could be grateful that we are not discussing "chlouroufourm".

LOL! Phew, I was worried we were OT there for a moment!
:crazy:
Back to KC... I think we can safely rule out that she was brewing up this stuff... That is unless, of course, she was routinely armed w her splashproof goggles, face shield, breathing apparatus, chemical- and vapor-resistant clothing, and gloves (all hopefully while prepared w chemical extinguisher, eye fountain, dispersant, deluge shower, charcoal tablets, and trusty OSHA handbook safely at the ready??)
:waitasec:
So while its components may be commercially available to cook up this lethal cocktail (who gets near this stuff?!), much more so are the countless consumer products, solvents, degreasers, insecticides, household cleaners, aerosol sprays etc containing eg methyl chloroform--but none of which would carry the same handling risks, or require the same stringent precautions. I vote instead for a potent chloro-carbon cocktail of flying insect killer, carpet cleaning fluids, spot removers--and possibly chlorine. JMO
arrot:

Signs and Symptoms of Chloroform Exposure:

Exposure to chloroform vapor may include conjunctivitis and blepharospasm (twitching of the eyelid). Burning pain and corneal epithelium injury may occur from chloroform liquid splashed in the eye. Acute exposure may also lead to respiratory depression, chemical pneumonitis, pulmonary edema, metabolic acidosis, central nervous system depression, headache, fatigue, and dizziness. Gastrointestinal signs and symptoms include nausea, vomiting, salivation, anorexia, and gastrointestinal irritation. Cardiac arrhythmias and cardiac arrest have been reported.

Emergency Life-Support Procedures: Acute exposure to chloroform may require decontamination and life support for the victims. Emergency personnel should wear protective clothing appropriate to the type and degree of contamination. Air-purifying or supplied-air respiratory equipment should also be worn, as necessary. Rescue vehicles should carry supplies such as plastic sheeting and disposable plastic bags to assist in preventing spread of contamination.

Inhalation Exposure:
1. Move victims to fresh air. Emergency personnel should avoid self-exposure to chloroform.
2. Evaluate vital signs including pulse and respiratory rate, and note any trauma. If no pulse is detected, provide CPR. If not breathing, provide artificial respiration. If breathing is labored, administer oxygen or other respiratory support.
3. Obtain authorization and/or further instructions from the local hospital for performance of invasive procedures.
4. Transport to a health care facility.

Dermal/Eye Exposure:
1. Remove victims from exposure. Emergency personnel should avoid self-exposure to chloroform.
2. Evaluate vital signs including pulse and respiratory rate, and note any trauma. If no pulse is detected, provide CPR. If not breathing, provide artificial respiration. If breathing is labored, administer oxygen or other respiratory support.
3. Remove and isolate contaminated clothing as soon as possible.
4. If eye exposure has occurred, eyes must be flushed with lukewarm water for at least 30 minutes.
5. Wash exposed skin areas thoroughly with water.
6. Obtain authorization and/or further instructions from the local hospital for performance of other invasive procedures.
7. Transport to a health care facility.

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/2893
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chloroform/recognition.html

 

[Lanie]

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/meth/lab/index.html

"What is a meth lab?

Meth can be manufactured in a clandestine drug lab (meth lab) in a variety of indoor and outdoor locations, including houses, apartment buildings, motels, vehicles, wooded areas or fields. Meth is manufactured (or “cooked”) by applying common, readily available materials to one of several basic recipes.

Meth "recipes" can be easily obtained through the Internet or by associating with other cooks. There are hundreds of chemical products and substances that are used interchangeably to produce meth. The substitution of one chemical for another in meth recipes may cause the process to be more hazardous (resulting in fire or explosion) or may result in a tainted, final product with unwanted or dangerous effects.
Many dangerous chemical ingredients are used to make meth. The cooking process causes chemical residues and meth to be deposited on surfaces and household belongings. Also, chemical by-products such as toxic phosphine gas may be formed during meth manufacture. This may occur through planned chemical interaction, or by processing errors, such as increasing cooking temperatures too rapidly.

Every meth "recipe" starts with over-the-counter medications that include pseudoephedrine or ephedrine in their contents. The pills are crushed and mixed with other chemicals in the process of cooking meth. Various meth recipes include combinations of volatile organic compounds (VOCs), acids, bases, metals, solvents and salts. Making meth with these chemicals can result in explosions, chemical fires, and the release of toxic gases.
Meth cooking also produces solid and liquid wastes that can contaminate a building and its contents, or the groundwater or soil where they are dumped.
Go to > top.
What are the potential health effects from exposure to a meth lab?

Health effects caused by exposure to meth lab chemicals depend on: (1) the lab process and chemicals used; (2) the amount of chemical and length of exposure; and (3) the age and health of the person exposed. Chemicals may enter the body by being breathed, eaten, or absorbed through the skin.
An acute exposure is one that occurs over a relatively short period of time. Acute exposure to meth lab chemicals can cause shortness of breath, cough, chest pain, dizziness, lack of coordination, chemical irritation, or burns to skin, eyes, nose and mouth. Death could result when exposure is to a particularly toxic chemical or the person exposed is particularly vulnerable. Acute exposures can occur in non-drug users during or immediately after ‘cooking’.
Less severe exposures can result in symptoms such as headache, nausea, dizziness, and fatigue or lethargy. These symptoms have been known to occur in people exposed to active labs, but also in people ---particularly law enforcement personnel and other first responders --- who have entered a drug lab before the site has been cleaned or ventilated. These less-severe symptoms usually go away after several hours of exposure to fresh air.
Exposures to lab chemicals or byproducts over a long period of time - called chronic exposures - may cause both long-term and short-term health effects. Long-term exposures to VOCs may result in liver and kidney damage, neurological problems, and increased risk of cancer. Even at low levels, exposures for long periods by people living in a former lab site could result in serious health effects."

Wow, this looks very dangerous and complicated. Even more dangerous and complicated than making chloroform. And crackheads do this? Surely not.
Lanie

 

[Indigo]

Hi, kiki. Would it surprise you to find out that there are some children who aren't the least bit afraid to handle dangerous solvents? The following is snipped from a drug information page for parents of these children:

"Preparation of freebase, which involves the use of volatile solvents, can result in death or injury from fire or explosion".

Now, I'm not saying that Casey was cooking crack or had any connection to drugs.
What I am saying is that maybe Casey wasn't afraid of chemical solvents either. It's possible. JMO, of course.

 

[Indigo]

Wow, Lanie! Same thought.

 

[fortytwo]

Wow, this looks very dangerous and complicated. Even more dangerous and complicated than making chloroform. And crackheads do this? Surely not.
Lanie

(snip)

I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" do this. More likely I expect that the people who sell to crackheads do. At any rate no small number of them are ultimately uncovered when their lab technique goes awry.

The more significant point is that the issue is not whether KC could make chloroform, but rather that the likelihood that she would approaches null.

And were she to have tried I think that the consequences would probably have provided a great deal more evidence than has been shared with us so far.

 

[kiki the parrot]

(snip)

I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" do this. More likely I expect that the people who sell to crackheads do. At any rate no small number of them are ultimately uncovered when their lab technique goes awry.

The more significant point is that the issue is not whether KC could make chloroform, but rather that the likelihood that she would approaches null.

And were she to have tried I think that the consequences would probably have provided a great deal more evidence than has been shared with us so far.

(bold mine) WOW, 42! Exact same thoughts. :floorlaugh: JMO
arrot:

 

[Lanie]

(snip)

I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" do this. More likely I expect that the people who sell to crackheads do. At any rate no small number of them are ultimately uncovered when their lab technique goes awry.

The more significant point is that the issue is not whether KC could make chloroform, but rather that the likelihood that she would approaches null.

And were she to have tried I think that the consequences would probably have provided a great deal more evidence than has been shared with us so far.

Bolded by me.
The area I live in is somewhat rural. People are usually no more than 2 degrees removed.
There were some people cooking meth maybe half a mile from my house, and they were all users. The police here won't do anything about it. It was a rent house, and when they were finally evicted, (not arrested) the owner (friend of mine) said they had even cut a hole through the ceiling in an attempt to ventilate. It took him lots of time and money to get the place cleaned up and fit for habitation.
A guy I went to school with, and who's family I have known for years, was busted for cooking meth. He's also a user.
I could tell at least 20 more stories, all the same. But in the interest of brevity, I'll just say every single meth lab I have knowledge of was run by meth users.
I disagree the likelihood is null. We have documentation she cooks, and will put gas in her car from a gascan. That covers both mixing ingredients and handling toxic substances.
There are also the options of purchase or theft.
Lanie

 

[Rumpole]

Bolded by me.
The area I live in is somewhat rural. People are usually no more than 2 degrees removed.
There were some people cooking meth maybe half a mile from my house, and they were all users. The police here won't do anything about it. It was a rent house, and when they were finally evicted, (not arrested) the owner (friend of mine) said they had even cut a hole through the ceiling in an attempt to ventilate. It took him lots of time and money to get the place cleaned up and fit for habitation.
A guy I went to school with, and who's family I have known for years, was busted for cooking meth. He's also a user.
I could tell at least 20 more stories, all the same. But in the interest of brevity, I'll just say every single meth lab I have knowledge of was run by meth users.
I disagree the likelihood is null. We have documentation she cooks, and will put gas in her car from a gascan. That covers both mixing ingredients and handling toxic substances.
There are also the options of purchase or theft.
Lanie

Everybody has agreed she could make chloroform, we are discussing whether or not it is likely she did.

Just I and others think she didn't.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that Kc ever made chloroform. In fact no evidence she has ever seen any, or been within miles of any. Why raise it as an issue YET?

I googled "Thousand Island Dressing" yesterday. Do you think that is evidence that I not only made some, but used some on yesterday's defensless prawns?

 

[Lanie]

Everybody has agreed she could make chloroform, we are discussing whether or not it is likely she did.

Just I and others think she didn't.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that Kc ever made chloroform. In fact no evidence she has ever seen any, or been within miles of any. Why raise it as an issue YET?

I googled "Thousand Island Dressing" yesterday. Do you think that is evidence that I not only made some, but used some on yesterday's defensless prawns?

That's not a fair question to your stance. Are you actually going to take the position if prawn debris was found in your home, and residue of Thousand Island dressing was found with the prawn debris, it is highly unlikely you had anything whatsoever to do with Thousand Island dressing?
I'm not going to do this anymore. Samples were sent to labs from the trunk of Casey's car. These samples were tested for more than decomposition. They were tested for things that would be expected to be found in the trunk of a car, to determine any crossover or contamination potential of the compounds that would make up human decomposition. The people doing the testing are trained professionals who do this for a living, so I'm not going to get into a debate to provide documentation to prove these are trained professionals. They found unusually high levels of chloroform, which they clearly state in the report are not consistent with levels usually found in human decomp. It spells it out very plainly, human decomp is ruled out in the report. Maybe I have a different report than some of you do, maybe that is the explanation. They found residue of chloroform, and residue consistant with chloroform. IIRC, there is also a part in the report that says no other chemicals were found. IMO, that rules out two or three or four different cleaning solvents being used to clean the trunk, and combining to form chloroform by accident. Plus, I am confident these trained professionals know enough to look for the chemicals that would cause this reaction. Turns out Casey looked up chloroform not once, but twice, 3 months before Caylee was killed. If you and others consider that NO EVIDENCE of chloroform, there is nothing more I can say.
Post #893 by fortytwo. I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" do this. Having fortytwo give no input at all on her sentence, this is like if I were arguing what she meant was "I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" who use Tylenol Sinus to make crack do this" vs "I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" who use Excedrin Sinus to make crack would do this." She said crackheads, it means crackheads, period. The report says human decomp, it means human decomp, period. The report says no other chemicals found, it means no other chemicals found, not no other chemicals found other than cleaning solvents which would combine together to form this unusually high level of chloroform, which of course would explain the unusually high level of chloroform, which would make it not unusually high after all.
Lanie

 

[Rumpole]

That's not a fair question to your stance. Are you actually going to take the position if prawn debris was found in your home, and residue of Thousand Island dressing was found with the prawn debris, it is highly unlikely you had anything whatsoever to do with Thousand Island dressing?
I'm not going to do this anymore. Samples were sent to labs from the trunk of Casey's car. These samples were tested for more than decomposition. They were tested for things that would be expected to be found in the trunk of a car, to determine any crossover or contamination potential of the compounds that would make up human decomposition. The people doing the testing are trained professionals who do this for a living, so I'm not going to get into a debate to provide documentation to prove these are trained professionals. They found unusually high levels of chloroform, which they clearly state in the report are not consistent with levels usually found in human decomp. It spells it out very plainly, human decomp is ruled out in the report. Maybe I have a different report than some of you do, maybe that is the explanation. They found residue of chloroform, and residue consistant with chloroform. IIRC, there is also a part in the report that says no other chemicals were found. IMO, that rules out two or three or four different cleaning solvents being used to clean the trunk, and combining to form chloroform by accident. Plus, I am confident these trained professionals know enough to look for the chemicals that would cause this reaction. Turns out Casey looked up chloroform not once, but twice, 3 months before Caylee was killed. If you and others consider that NO EVIDENCE of chloroform, there is nothing more I can say.
Post #893 by fortytwo. I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" do this. Having fortytwo give no input at all on her sentence, this is like if I were arguing what she meant was "I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" who use Tylenol Sinus to make crack do this" vs "I'm not sure it would be accurate to say that "crackheads" who use Excedrin Sinus to make crack would do this." She said crackheads, it means crackheads, period. The report says human decomp, it means human decomp, period. The report says no other chemicals found, it means no other chemicals found, not no other chemicals found other than cleaning solvents which would combine together to form this unusually high level of chloroform, which of course would explain the unusually high level of chloroform, which would make it not unusually high after all.
Lanie

Interim report: tests on prawn debris showed raised levels of mayonaise and a tomato substance.

I am now taking legal advise.
I do have a wittness who is prepared to testify under oath that she did not see any Thousand Island dressing at the table last night. An extensive search of the house and the fridge in particular has failed to find any trace. There are no traces or residues on any jar or container.

I claim I did not manufacture TID.

 

[txsvicki]

I have a serious question about chemicals combining in the trunk to form chloroform. The instructions online say that to combine things like acetone and bleach, it has to be a certain ratio, and ice has to be used.....lots of ice...or it will heat up and possibly form a poisonous gas. Phosgene gas which was used in World War II as a weapon. How on earth could bleach and acetone mix in a hot trunk to form chloroform without the proper procedure of cooling or ice? What are the odds that the exact ratio of each would have accidentally been used in cleaning the trunk so that choroform would result?

 

[Rumpole]

I have a serious question about chemicals combining in the trunk to form chloroform. The instructions online say that to combine things like acetone and bleach, it has to be a certain ratio, and ice has to be used.....lots of ice...or it will heat up and possibly form a poisonous gas. Phosgene gas which was used in World War II as a weapon. How on earth could bleach and acetone mix in a hot trunk to form chloroform without the proper procedure of cooling or ice? What are the odds that the exact ratio of each would have accidentally been used in cleaning the trunk so that choroform would result?

Serious answer:

Keeping the temperature as low as possible would be important to ensure mainly chloroform and not a lot of other reactions. I suspect you get several different products produced, whatever you do, but will get MORE chloroform if you keep the ingredients cool.

Sploshing the same chemicals about in the trunk is going to allow a lot of the heat to dissipate much easier than in a contained jar or whatever, but I agree more of the side reactions could happen, but still you will get some chloroform.

 

[fortytwo]

I disagree the likelihood is null. We have documentation she cooks, and will put gas in her car from a gascan. That covers both mixing ingredients and handling toxic substances.
There are also the options of purchase or theft.
Lanie

(snip)

I will dispute to my dying swallow (and all my J.A. Henckels) the very idea that anyone found in possession of or even in proximity with multiple empty Velveeta wrappers can ever be described as a cook.

And I suspect that when confronted with a full gas can KC would suddenly develop a severe case of split cuticle, and be unable to actually risk getting gas on it by pouring the gas herself.

Seriously, though. I didn't say that the likelihood is null, I said it approached it. I don't see purchase to be a likely option either. Yes it is accessible, but those access points are few and probably easily discovered.

More simply, I just don't feel that drugging or poisoning by chloroform is a particularly needful part of the scenario. I feel that LE pursued the possibility out of due diligence, and that SA made it public for the usual reasons.

Alternative explanations for the presence of chloroform have been presented quite plausibly by JWG, Bev, and others. Theirs seem more reasonable to me at this time.

I will not be devastated if in time I am proven wrong, nor will I be elated if chloroform should be found to to be irrelevant. It just seems that the avenue has been pursued as far as possible with the data at hand.