All About Chloroform#2

[Valhall]

How stable would it have been in the kind of heat that a car in Florida reaches in the summer? The interior reaches 120 degrees F very quickly with the windows up. Do we know the flash point of choroform?

I was always struck by how quickly some of the experts said chloroform degraded or broke down. In order for the chloroform to be from Caylee, it would have had to have been in the trunk for at least a month. Obviously we know the trunk was opened several times during the interim (gas can incident if nothing else - and to put the bag of garbage from AL's house in it). So some of the fumes might have escaped. But it sat for two weeks in a hot car lot. Perhaps a chemist could help comment if heat accelerates the breakdown.

*snipped and cropped for space*

Okay, chloroform doesn't flash and isn't considered flammable. Now let's talk about the word "stability". The "instability" of chloroform is in reference to "liquid chloroform". The minute liquid chloroform hits air it starts evaporating. The elevated temperatures in the trunk would just increase the evaporation of the liquid chloroform to "free chloroform" (i.e. gaseous chloroform). Gaseous chloroform is pretty darned stable! And, in fact, breaks down in air very slowly. AND, with this being in a trunk where UV cannot assist in the break down of chloroform, the free chloroform would break down even slower than say outside in the sunlight. So...the trunk being closed up for two weeks would actually assist in maintaining the level of gaseous chloroform present.

 

[Valhall]

One more thing...the vapor density of gaseous chloroform is 4.36...that's 4.36 times heavier than air. Any free chloroform released would drop like a lead weight to the bottom of the trunk (i.e. to the liner).

 

[eddeva]

have we completely thrown out the idea tha george used chloroform in cleaning the car? it seems to be routinely used in car detailing.

 

[magic-cat]

have we completely thrown out the idea tha george used chloroform in cleaning the car? it seems to be routinely used in car detailing.

My hubby detailed cars for a living for about 3 years and he never once used chloroform. He worked for one of the biggest car lots in this area and chloroform was not on their list of chemicals...so maybe it is not as common as we think? It is used in dry cleaning still I believe, but I don't think it is the routine chemical of choice in auto detailing...I could be wrong-I have been so many times.:waitasec:

 

[eddeva]

My hubby detailed cars for a living for about 3 years and he never once used chloroform. He worked for one of the biggest car lots in this area and chloroform was not on their list of chemicals...so maybe it is not as common as we think? It is used in dry cleaning still I believe, but I don't think it is the routine chemical of choice in auto detailing...I could be wrong-I have been so many times.:waitasec:

maybe it's just more common in britain magic-cat. a family member owns a limo service and he took my boots down over Christmas to have the water/snow stains removed, they used chloroform.

 

[cecybeans]

maybe it's just more common in britain magic-cat. a family member owns a limo service and he took my boots down over Christmas to have the water/snow stains removed, they used chloroform.

I've heard it is at least a component of some car cleaning solvents here too. If other ingredients evaporated and left it behind, I still can't see why it might not happen to the wheel well cover. But maybe someone with more specific knowledge could help set me straight.

(btw - I wish we could hear your posts - I could listen to UK accents reading the phone book!)

 

[eddeva]

I've heard it is at least a component of some car cleaning solvents here too. If other ingredients evaporated and left it behind, I still can't see why it might not happen to the wheel well cover. But maybe someone with more specific knowledge could help set me straight.

(btw - I wish we could hear your posts - I could listen to UK accents reading the phone book!)

i wouldn't be so sure cecybeans (think billy connolly's twin sister ...)

 

[Rumpole]

Perhaps we can put hysteria about chloroform to rest?
ther_beatingA_Dead

It has always seemed to me that a brief google search, 3 months before Caylee was murdered is of interest, but little relevance unless other "chloroform" evidence surfaced. There is none. No more tests are likely. The last "hope" for chloroform fans was toxicology on the remains showing evidence, but it didn't, so IMO that just about wraps it up for Chloroform? :shutup:

:cat:

 

[nyvictoria]

Perhaps we can put hysteria about chloroform to rest?
ther_beatingA_Dead

It has always seemed to me that a brief google search, 3 months before Caylee was murdered is of interest, but little relevance unless other "chloroform" evidence surfaced. There is none. No more tests are likely. The last "hope" for chloroform fans was toxicology on the remains showing evidence, but it didn't, so IMO that just about wraps it up for Chloroform? :shutup:

:cat:

Sorry to bring this thread to the forefront again but I have to agree. I believe Casey may have searched "chloraform" (great little speller that she is) after seeing the pic on RM's MySpace page with its disgusting reference to chloroform. The chloroform in the trunk was most likely a combination of the byproduct of decomposition and cleaning fluids. I have no doubt George and/or Cindy scrubbed that trunk and Casey probably took a stab at it, as well.

I'll go away now :beamup:

I

 

[Rumpole]

Sorry to bring this thread to the forefront again but I have to agree. I believe Casey may have searched "chloraform" (great little speller that she is) after seeing the pic on RM's MySpace page with its disgusting reference to chloroform. The chloroform in the trunk was most likely a combination of the byproduct of decomposition and cleaning fluids. I have no doubt George and/or Cindy scrubbed that trunk and Casey probably took a stab at it, as well.

I'll go away now :beamup:

I

Don't go away!

I agree. I "think" much the same.

Moreover even if (big if) KC somehow bought/stole/made chloroform and used it on Caylee, we are never going to prove it. Since it has not shown up in the toxicology now, and no hint of chloroform in any witness statements, no evidence of containers etc in searches - there is no way to introduce it as evidence in the case.

 

[nyvictoria]

Don't go away!

I agree. I "think" much the same.

Moreover even if (big if) KC somehow bought/stole/made chloroform and used it on Caylee, we are never going to prove it. Since it has not shown up in the toxicology now, and no hint of chloroform in any witness statements, no evidence of containers etc in searches - there is no way to introduce it as evidence in the case.

Thanks HP and glad to see you back! Were you really on a time out?

I doubt Casey is intelligent enough to follow the instructions to make chloroform. Heck, she couldn't even spell it! Unless it was George who did the looking? I don't think he's all that bright either. But, enough said on that subject

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks HP and glad to see you back! Were you really on a time out?

I doubt Casey is intelligent enough to follow the instructions to make chloroform. Heck, she couldn't even spell it! Unless it was George who did the looking? I don't think he's all that bright either. But, enough said on that subject

T/O
Yes I was.

Now that you/we have mentioned the fact these posts will probably vanish!

Funny that?

:cat:

 

[spqr]

Found this "definition while doing some research, bolded by me...more to follow:

Inadvertent synthesis of chloroform

The haloform reaction can also occur inadvertently in domestic settings. Sodium hypochlorite solution (chlorine bleach) mixed with common household liquids such as acetone, butanone, ethanol, or isopropyl alcohol may produce some chloroform, in addition to other compounds such as chloroacetone, or dichloroacetone.

Uses

The major use of chloroform today is in the production of the refrigerant R-22, commonly used in the air conditioning business. However, as the Montreal Protocol takes effect, this use can be expected to decline as R-22 is replaced by refrigerants that are less liable to result in ozone depletion. In addition, it is used under research conditions to anesthetize mosquitoes for experiments, most frequently for the study of malaria. In film, television and video games, it is sometimes used in a fictional manner to knock out an unsuspecting victim (after being poured on a rag and being pressed to the mouth and/or nose), leaving no trace. It should be emphasized that to induce unconsciousness in an adult human would require almost as much chloroform as it takes to kill an adult human; the lack of precision inherent in administering a drug by inhalation outside of a medical setting makes this practice extremely dangerous as well as unlikely to actually work (given that one would have to restrain the victim for some time; a few whiffs of pure chloroform will only mildly sedate most adults).

 

[ibyoungr]

Casey did not use chloroform to knock Caylee out while partying or to use once and only once.....

I firmly disagree that Caylee was stuffed in the trunk while she partied and she used chloroform. The pings, cell texts, calls and police interviews do not support this. Click here for a play by play..

However, police interviews do support Cindy watching Caylee and in the first weeks of June stated she was getting a little tired of having her all the time.

Truthfully, (not supporting Casey here....) Caylee was with her grandma in her home with her toys and blankie more often than not. Out of the respect for Caylee.... we should remember her life as it truly was spent.

Which "party" do we propose Caylee spent in the trunk in the car -chloroformed?

Most would be surprised to know when this all got fired up around May 24th, when Casey's partying picked up steam with the party when Casey met Tony, it appears that Cindy had Caylee it was the beginning of her vacation. Cindy just happened to think that Casey was at work... she became suspicious only after May 25th the ABC party, when at some point before June 15th Cindy found out that Casey was not working on the 25th but at the ABC clothes party. This was one of the straws that broke the camels back. The next straw was when Casey did not come home until 5 AM after the night out at FUSION on June 6th. The next straw was June 13th when Casey did not get home until....3:12 AM.

MAmy states.. 4 out 5 times.. Casey was with her Grandma... police interview.

Casey's partying REALLY picked up after June 20th once she was free of Caylee. It appears that she was telling everyone that Caylee was with a Nanny, no longer using her mother as a caretaker.

So it gives the illusion, when seeing the June 20th party pics or any party pics that Caylee was "put in a trunk" since there is NO nanny and Cindy did not have her.

However, by this time... Caylee was already thrown out in the woods and Casey did not need to use the trunk nor any drugs.

She only used the trunk to put a DEAD child in as the evidence supports thus far has collected. There is no discovery or evidence that supports a LIVE Caylee in the trunk.

She did not use it on a one -time basis.. are we crazy???? Why go to all that trouble, when OTC's or the handy benzo's at the house would have worked. Evidently, Doc G supports this.

 

[Rumpole]

Casey did not use chloroform to knock Caylee out while partying or to use once and only once.....

I firmly disagree that Caylee was stuffed in the trunk while she partied and she used chloroform. The pings, cell texts, calls and police interviews do not support this. Click here for a play by play..

However, police interviews do support Cindy watching Caylee and in the first weeks of June stated she was getting a little tired of having her all the time.

Truthfully, (not supporting Casey here....) Caylee was with her grandma in her home with her toys and blankie more often than not. Out of the respect for Caylee.... we should remember her life as it truly was spent.

Which "party" do we propose Caylee spent in the trunk in the car -chloroformed?

Most would be surprised to know when this all got fired up around May 24th, when Casey's partying picked up steam with the party when Casey met Tony, it appears that Cindy had Caylee it was the beginning of her vacation. Cindy just happened to think that Casey was at work... she became suspicious only after May 25th the ABC party, when at some point before June 15th Cindy found out that Casey was not working on the 25th but at the ABC clothes party. This was one of the straws that broke the camels back. The next straw was when Casey did not come home until 5 AM after the night out at FUSION on June 6th. The next straw was June 13th when Casey did not get home until....3:12 AM.

MAmy states.. 4 out 5 times.. Casey was with her Grandma... police interview.

Casey's partying REALLY picked up after June 20th once she was free of Caylee. It appears that she was telling everyone that Caylee was with a Nanny, no longer using her mother as a caretaker.

So it gives the illusion, when seeing the June 20th party pics or any party pics that Caylee was "put in a trunk" since there is NO nanny and Cindy did not have her.

However, by this time... Caylee was already thrown out in the woods and Casey did not need to use the trunk nor any drugs.

She only used the trunk to put a DEAD child in as the evidence supports thus far has collected. There is no discovery or evidence that supports a LIVE Caylee in the trunk.

She did not use it on a one -time basis.. are we crazy???? Why go to all that trouble, when OTC's or the handy benzo's at the house would have worked. Evidently, Doc G supports this.

I agree that the evidence you show here and elsewhere strongly refutes the notion that "the trunk" was a regular nanny, or even used at all until the murder.
I am not sure we disagree at all, but I think that around the murder either a dead Caylee was put in the trunk OR a live Caylee but died soon after?
OTC drugs a possibility only, and much less likely since no regular use shown.
However Caylee could well have been unconscuious? or badly injured but alive?

 

[ibyoungr]

I agree that the evidence you show here and elsewhere strongly refutes the notion that "the trunk" was a regular nanny, or even used at all until the murder.
I am not sure we disagree at all, but I think that around the murder either a dead Caylee was put in the trunk OR a live Caylee but died soon after?
OTC drugs a possibility only, and much less likely since no regular use shown.
However Caylee could well have been unconscuious? or badly injured but alive?

Sure it is possibility. But why risk a child waking up and making noises?

I posted somewhere last week when a mother is NOT CONCERNED about their children.

She was just TO CAREFREE in BB and had no problem sleeping in and having SEX all morning on the 17th with a partially dead or injured child. She was no longer a PARENT.

 

[Rumpole]

Sure it is possibility. But why risk a child waking up and making noises?

I posted somewhere last week when a mother is NOT CONCERNED about their children.

She was just TO CAREFREE in BB and had no problem sleeping in and having SEX all morning on the 17th with a partially dead or injured child. She was no longer a PARENT.

It was KC's demenour at BB that led me to think she was too relaxed to have just killed Caylee minutes? before. I just can't imagine anybody doing that? I could easily accept it from this monster though.
I am trying to keep the option of Caylee being alive even if KC thought she was dead, else I have trouble with time line from TOD and 3 days +/- to opportunity to dump body.

All I am saying (is give peace a chance) is: at whatever time you theorise that KC threw a dead Caylee in the trunk, she may not have been dead?
Dr KC is hardly a reliable person to pronounce death?

 

[Jolynna]

Dr. Baden is on Geraldo tonight and is going to float his Casey using chloroform as a babysitter theory with Casey accidently overdosing Caylee on June 16.

No way, no how did THAT happen.

• I would like Dr. Baden to cite ONE INSTANCE OF ANY PARENT using chloroform for a babysitter. Ever. Ever. Ever.(I can find lots of cases where men tried to use it as a date rape drug and the victim didn't live. The dead victims faces were covered with burns from the chloroform. Deep ones.)
• If chloroform was used it would not have showed up in Caylee's hair after only one use. Caylee would have died before the chloroform metabilized into her hair. She didn't use it more than once. Nobody has ever used chloroform for a babysitter habitually.
• Tony did not care if Casey brought Caylee over to his apartment during the day. She had been bringing Caylee over during the day frequently. Why would Casey have had to knock Caylee out to go to his apartment at 4 p,m,?
• There is no evidence Casey ever put Caylee in her trunk. Either Cindy watched her or Caylee went along. So I am not surprised by the testing results.

Sorry, JWG, Casey was evil and uncaring enough to be perfectly fine cuddling with Tony and picking out videos despite Caylee's very recent death. She disassociated from Caylee and from her part in Caylee's death as soon as Caylee was put out of sight.

IMO

 

[mitzi]

Dr. Baden is on Geraldo tonight and is going to float his Casey using chloroform as a babysitter theory with Casey accidently overdosing Caylee on June 16.

No way, no how did THAT happen.

• I would like Dr. Baden to cite ONE INSTANCE OF ANY PARENT using chloroform for a babysitter. Ever. Ever. Ever.(I can find lots of cases where men tried to use it as a date rape drug and the victim didn't live. The dead victims faces were covered with burns from the chloroform. Deep ones.)
• If chloroform was used it would not have showed up in Caylee's hair after only one use. Caylee would have died before the chloroform metabilized into her hair. She didn't use it more than once. Nobody has ever used chloroform for a babysitter habitually.
• Tony did not care if Casey brought Caylee over to his apartment during the day. She had been bringing Caylee over during the day frequently. Why would Casey have had to knock Caylee out to go to his apartment at 4 p,m,?
• There is no evidence Casey ever put Caylee in her trunk. Either Cindy watched her or Caylee went along. So I am not surprised by the testing results.

Sorry, JWG, Casey was evil and uncaring enough to be perfectly fine cuddling with Tony and picking out videos despite Caylee's very recent death. She disassociated from Caylee and from her part in Caylee's death as soon as Caylee was put out of sight.

IMO

I watched Geraldo tonight, and K. Guilfoyle was subbing for him. She asked Gloria Allred what she thought of the fact that the doc dump said the FBI hadn't tested the hair for chloroform. Gloria stated that the test for chloroform was sent to some other lab...not the FBI, so does anybody remember seeing anything in previous dumps that states this? If not, maybe Ms. Allred knows more than we do.

 

[Valhall]

Sorry to bring this thread to the forefront again but I have to agree. I believe Casey may have searched "chloraform" (great little speller that she is) after seeing the pic on RM's MySpace page with its disgusting reference to chloroform.

I

*snipped to part I want to address*

While I entertain this theory as well, the one hiccup I run into is that KC didn't just google chloroform, she googled all the required constituents to make chloroform...alcohol, acetone and peroxide. And while this could be written off to "inquisitive" behavior after seeing the chloroform pic on RM's webpage, it becomes harder to explain why she then googled chloroform again and followed-up with a search on how to make it 4 days later. That's more than just being curious in "what's chloroform" kind of way.