Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[SkewedView]

One thing that most people tend to forget about burglars is that they are predominantly impulsive individuals. Sure, your big time cat burglars that go after well secured targets are meticulous in their planning, but the small time guys tend to do sloppy, spur of the moment jobs. About the only reason that LE doesn't tend to solve many burglaries is more related to a lack of effort than any special genius on the part of the offender.

So what's my point? Simply that expecting a small time burglary to be executed in a logical, well thought out manner runs counter to the typical behavior of the average offender of that type, especially if something occurred to throw what planning the offender did have into chaos, such as the interruption of burglary.


As an anecdotal example (and yes, I am aware that anecdotes are not evidence - I'm not making any such claims here): When I was a teen, I went off for the day with my parents, and the idiot son of our upstairs neighbor decided to break into our place with a friend. The morons entered on the side of the house that was in clear view of the road and neighbors, when they could have gone in on the other side, which was hidden by a line of pine trees. Thus, they were spotted, but had plenty of time to take stuff and leave before LE got there. Well, being impulsive youths, they decided to hang out and watch naughty videos on my parent's TV instead, and thus were caught in the act.

Now just think, if they hadn't been spotted, and then, say, my mother had come home and surprised them, and they killed her before fleeing in a panic. How would the scene have looked to investigators, going by John Douglas's guidelines (and I should emphasize, those are guidelines and recommendations, not inviolable rules).

 

[RoseMontague]

I disagree regarding the lighting at the cottage. A quick look on google earth shows street lights all along the road and also along the parallel road that is raised. I don't agree that Filomina's window, clearly visible from the road, was completely in the dark.

Climbing up and down the flat 10 foot wall three times: open shutters, break window, open inside shutters or whatever gymnastics were required, makes no sense to me. Furthermore, if it's a simple task to climb the wall, why hasn't anyone demonstrated how one scales the wall and climbs into the window. It hasn't been done yet. The balcony is somewhat visible from the road at quite a distance and the kitchen window does not seem to be at all visible from the road. There's nothing suspicious about someone standing on a balcony, so once there, there's no reason to be concerned about being seen from the road.

I think the actual video taken by the police is much more reliable, Here is the frame leading to the window and then the frame looking out the window.

 

[RoseMontague]

<modsnip>. An important one.

 

[otto]

<modsnip> An important one.

That photo makes it very clear that the kitchen window was in no way visible from the road. In terms of breaking in through a window that was visible from the road: Filomina's window, or a window that was not visible from the road: kitchen window, remind me again why a burglar would choose climbing up and down a 10 sheer wall 2-3 times where he is clearly visible from the road rather than choose the unseen window?

 

[otto]

I think the actual video taken by the police is much more reliable, Here is the frame leading to the window and then the frame looking out the window.

Why is the interior of the room so dark?

 

[RoseMontague]

That photo makes it very clear that the kitchen window was in no way visible from the road. In terms of breaking in through a window that was visible from the road: Filomina's window, or a window that was not visible from the road: kitchen window, remind me again why a burglar would choose climbing up and down a 10 sheer wall 2-3 times where he is clearly visible from the road rather than choose the unseen window?

As I pointed out before the window/door you circled was the downstairs window and it was barred. The balcony is clearly visible from the road.

 

[otto]

As I pointed out before the window/door you circled was the downstairs window and it was barred. The balcony is clearly visible from the road.

The grate on the downstairs flat was not locked, as we have seen police breaking the window in the door without breaking the grate. The grate could be used as a ladder to climb onto the small roof about the door. Once on the small roof, it's simple to step onto the balcony. The kitchen window is absolutely not visible from the road. The grate on the door is obscured by trees and it a great distance from the exit to the car park, which is the next line of sight to the balcony (not the grate on the door).

There is absolutely nothing suspicious about someone standing on a balcony.

 

[RoseMontague]

The grate on the downstairs flat was not locked, as we have seen police breaking the window in the door without breaking the grate. The grate could be used as a ladder to climb onto the small roof about the door. Once on the small roof, it's simple to step onto the balcony. The kitchen window is absolutely not visible from the road. The grate on the door is obscured by trees and it a great distance from the exit to the car park, which is the next line of sight to the balcony (not the grate on the door).

There is absolutely nothing suspicious about someone standing on a balcony.

Until they bust open the window.

 

[otto]

Until they bust open the window.

Exactly. So whether the balcony is visible from the distant parkade exit or not is irrelevant. The theory is that someone was going to enter the house by breaking a window. One window, Filomina's bedroom, is clearly visible from the road. The kitchen window is not at all visible from the road. If someone's going to break a window, they'll choose the one that is least visible - just like the other two breakins at the cottage. The kitchen window is the obvious choice.

We still have the fact that there is no glass on the ground beneath Filomina's window. I've read all the accusations against police that they were incompetent - that there really is glass on the ground beneath the window but the police didn't bother photographing it. I have posted photos of police investigating that particular area so clearly they investigated. Has anyone else bothered to photograph the area? If there was glass there, it should still be there, even today. There simply isn't any glass beneath the window and that is completely inconsistent with the theory that someone climbed in through Filomina's broken window.

 

[RoseMontague]

Exactly. So whether the balcony is visible from the distant parkade exit or not is irrelevant. The theory is that someone was going to enter the house by breaking a window. One window, Filomina's bedroom, is clearly visible from the road. The kitchen window is not at all visible from the road. If someone's going to break a window, they'll choose the one that is least visible - just like the other two breakins at the cottage. The kitchen window is the obvious choice.

We still have the fact that there is no glass on the ground beneath Filomina's window. I've read all the accusations against police that they were incompetent - that there really is glass on the ground beneath the window but the police didn't bother photographing it. I have posted photos of police investigating that particular area so clearly they investigated. Has anyone else bothered to photograph the area? If there was glass there, it should still be there, even today. There simply isn't any glass beneath the window and that is completely inconsistent with the theory that someone climbed in through Filomina's broken window.

It is clearly visible from the road, and the buildings on the other side of the road.

 

[RoseMontague]

Exactly. So whether the balcony is visible from the distant parkade exit or not is irrelevant. The theory is that someone was going to enter the house by breaking a window. One window, Filomina's bedroom, is clearly visible from the road. The kitchen window is not at all visible from the road. If someone's going to break a window, they'll choose the one that is least visible - just like the other two breakins at the cottage. The kitchen window is the obvious choice.

We still have the fact that there is no glass on the ground beneath Filomina's window. I've read all the accusations against police that they were incompetent - that there really is glass on the ground beneath the window but the police didn't bother photographing it. I have posted photos of police investigating that particular area so clearly they investigated. Has anyone else bothered to photograph the area? If there was glass there, it should still be there, even today. There simply isn't any glass beneath the window and that is completely inconsistent with the theory that someone climbed in through Filomina's broken window.

I would like to see the pictures of them combing through the grass, otto. The ones I have seen are of people smoking, talking on cell phones, or fixing their hat.

 

[SkewedView]

Thanks, did you look at the previous frame showing the lit interior as well as the dark exterior.

Indeed I did. Unfortunately, that is a bad thing, as backlighting screws badly with the auto-exposure settings on cheapo cameras, especially when the camera is swinging from one extreme of lighting to another. The poor resolution etc points to this being a typical cheapo camera. Thus, I personally don't get much use from this video, with regards to the current debate.


ETA: I should also add that image compression also screws with lighting badly.

 

[Footwarrior]

That photo makes it very clear that the kitchen window was in no way visible from the road. In terms of breaking in through a window that was visible from the road: Filomina's window, or a window that was not visible from the road: kitchen window, remind me again why a burglar would choose climbing up and down a 10 sheer wall 2-3 times where he is clearly visible from the road rather than choose the unseen window?

Google street view showing kitchen window and balcony of the cottage from the road.

Does anyone know if the kitchen shutters and the shutters over the door were latched on the night of the burglary? If they were, breaking in would require at least a good pry bar. And standing on a balcony isn't a great place to be when the noise from your break in attempt wakes up a sleeping occupant. A much better plan is to toss a big rock through a window and duck into the bushes for a bit. If no lights come on, it's a pretty safe bet the place is empty.

 

[js202]

The grate on the downstairs flat was not locked, as we have seen police breaking the window in the door without breaking the grate. The grate could be used as a ladder to climb onto the small roof about the door. Once on the small roof, it's simple to step onto the balcony. The kitchen window is absolutely not visible from the road. The grate on the door is obscured by trees and it a great distance from the exit to the car park, which is the next line of sight to the balcony (not the grate on the door).

There is absolutely nothing suspicious about someone standing on a balcony.

Admittedly I'm no burglar. But I suspect that *most certainly* a burglar would feel uncomfortable about standing on a balcony that could be seen from the road, and using such a visible place as his point of entry to a space he wished to burglarize.

In general, not dissimilar to certain preposterous theories with regard to ambient temperatures not conducive to morning showers, now being propagated in some quarters, this issue requires your interlocutors to prove a negative. The shower business requires us to read Amanda Knox's mind. The point of entry business requires us to read Rudy Guede's. It makes much more sense to look at the known evidence in the case, which overwhelmingly points to Rudy Guede as the sole culprit, and requires profound special pleading to implicate Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Put another way, the fact that there is insufficient physical evidence against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito requires mind numbing explications of peripheral contingencies. It makes a laughing stock of Occam's Razor.

 

[RoseMontague]

Indeed I did. Unfortunately, that is a bad thing, as backlighting screws badly with the auto-exposure settings on cheapo cameras, especially when the camera is swinging from one extreme of lighting to another. The poor resolution etc points to this being a typical cheapo camera. Thus, I personally don't get much use from this video, with regards to the current debate.


ETA: I should also add that image compression also screws with lighting badly.

Thanks, I believe there is some truth to you argument. Clearly, the house lamp near the balcony would be the major source of light compared to any of the street lamps that are pointed down on the road. The original video is in a mp4 format, which my computer does not support. I have converted it to a wmv and split it up to make it easier to find stuff. I don't know if that has anything to do with it but as I have said before the original video is available at IIP.

I don't think any of us can know for certain why this window was picked as the break in or staging point. I have however provided Filomena's testimony making it clear that there is a very good chance that only one climb was necessary and there is also a possibility that Rudy could see the window was open without even having to climb up there. Talking in absolutes on this is absolutely ridiculous, in my opinion.

 

[otto]

Google street view showing kitchen window and balcony of the cottage from the road.

Does anyone know if the kitchen shutters and the shutters over the door were latched on the night of the burglary? If they were, breaking in would require at least a good pry bar. And standing on a balcony isn't a great place to be when the noise from your break in attempt wakes up a sleeping occupant. A much better plan is to toss a big rock through a window and duck into the bushes for a bit. If no lights come on, it's a pretty safe bet the place is empty.

That would be from quite a distance away at the parkade exit. I doubt anyone on the balcony at night would attract any attention from that vantage point.

I guess we have to accept that it was a very stupid burglar if we are to believe that Filomina's bedroom was used to break into the cottage. Apparently this burglar preferred to scale a 10 foot wall 2-3 times, reach through a broken window to open the window while perched in mid-air, throw clothes around the floor instead of steal a laptop and then commit murder instead of burglary. It's not at all surprising the break in was ruled to be staged.

 

[RoseMontague]

That would be from quite a distance away at the parkade exit. I doubt anyone on the balcony at night would attract any attention from that vantage point.

I guess we have to accept that it was a very stupid burglar if we are to believe that Filomina's bedroom was used to break into the cottage. Apparently this burglar preferred to scale a 10 foot wall 2-3 times, reach through a broken window to open the window while perched in mid-air, throw clothes around the floor instead of steal a laptop and then commit murder instead of burglary. It's not at all surprising the break in was ruled to be staged.

Did you read the quote from Micheli I provided on the previous page? Massei is not the only judge involved in this case. How about Filomena's actual testimony in court I provided. Massei of course went with one of her previous versions. I wonder why? It is quite obvious that Massei is guilty of cherry picking on Filomena's various versions on the shutters, just as he did with Curatolo's various attempts to get the time right.

 

[otto]

Did you read the quote from Micheli I provided on the previous page? Massei is not the only judge involved in this case. How about Filomena's actual testimony in court I provided. Massei of course went with one of her previous versions. I wonder why? It is quite obvious that Massei is guilty of cherry picking on Filomena's various versions on the shutters, just as he did with Curatolo's various attempts to get the time right.

There are two sets of shutters. What is the discrepancy in her statement regarding the two sets?

 

[SkewedView]

That would be from quite a distance away at the parkade exit. I doubt anyone on the balcony at night would attract any attention from that vantage point.

I guess we have to accept that it was a very stupid burglar if we are to believe that Filomina's bedroom was used to break into the cottage. Apparently this burglar preferred to scale a 10 foot wall 2-3 times, reach through a broken window to open the window while perched in mid-air, throw clothes around the floor instead of steal a laptop and then commit murder instead of burglary. It's not at all surprising the break in was ruled to be staged.

Last I knew, breaking and entering is a sure sign of poor decision making skills in the first place. Expecting such an individual to make decisions that <modsnip> does not strike me as being very realistic.

Regarding the lap top, hot computers aren't exactly easy to get rid of in most developed nations, because of how pawn shops are regulated, and at any rate second hand electronics aren't worth very much anyway, so I've never really understood that argument.

Regarding the murder, that is a fairly common consequence (along with sexual assault and the burglar being killed by the homeowner) of burglary interruptions, so I again don't see where the incredulity and skepticism is coming from on this point.

 

[Allusonz]

:welcome:

I as well find it interesting that Special Agent John Douglas believes AK and RS to be innocent