Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

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To change the subject slightly, does anyone have any thoughts as to what we expect to hear during the arguments at the end of this week?

I'd love to hear what everyone thinks the prosecution, defense teams, and victim's family's lawyer will highlight during their arguments. If I remember the schedule, Prosecution should go on the 23rd, followed by the victim's family, the two defense teams, and then a rebuttal day. Verdict expected on the 30th.

Always a guess with strategies.

I would expect that the prosecution will try with vigor to discredit C & V as well as attempt to save the eyewitness testimony.

The defense must basically take the points in the appeals and present a cohesive argument. They cannot leave one stone out and it must be powerful

There is so much that could be said here but whether those are the tactics used I don't want to waste alot of time going over them individually thus will remain general in my observations
 
That would be from quite a distance away at the parkade exit. I doubt anyone on the balcony at night would attract any attention from that vantage point.

I guess we have to accept that it was a very stupid burglar if we are to believe that Filomina's bedroom was used to break into the cottage. Apparently this burglar preferred to scale a 10 foot wall 2-3 times, reach through a broken window to open the window while perched in mid-air, throw clothes around the floor instead of steal a laptop and then commit murder instead of burglary. It's not at all surprising the break in was ruled to be staged.

Do you wonder why they put burglar bars over the window sometime after the murder? My guess is they thought that window was vulnerable to burglars.

I think the break in is meaningless, it didn't even get its own chapter heading in Massei. It based on claims they never presented proof of such as glass on top of clothes that they didn't photograph and could have gotten there numerous ways other than breaking the window after clothes were scattered, if they even were, and no glass outside the window that would have been marginal in quantity anyway. The glass carefully piled on one side of the sill and not the other suggests someone came in that window, as it seems unlikely two stoned college kids with no experience doing any of this would think to do that. For that matter there's no reason to stage a break in anyway, the door could be left open as it was anyway.

Being as Rudy has been proven to be at the scene and involved in the murder, while Raffaele and Amanda have alibis with Naruto until 9:30, at which time Meredith was highly likely stabbed already, and recovered computer files may re-establish their alibi again anyway. If for whatever reason it is decided that the break-in was definitely staged, the first suspect for that is the one who was proven to have been there and had something to cover up, notably killing Meredith Kercher. Attempting to 'prove' a murder by pinning a staged break-in on two college kids for which there's no evidence of in the murder room, and no evidence they staged it would be surreal.
 
My frustration grows. Here's the deal guys - we have been down ALL these roads before. If you do not wish to respond to a post, because you have done it before, that's fine. JUST DON'T RESPOND. But if you continue to post that "this has been done before" then we can just close the thread again.

Poster can discuss the SAME ISSUE as many times as they want. If you don't want to discuss it, then DON'T. That's fine. You don't have too. But you don't get to tell everyone else that you are "tired of it."

Be nice to each other. It really isn't that hard. It is okay to disagree and to see things differently. That's what makes the world go round.

Please treat each other respectfully.

Salem
 
I removed all the posts of the dark picture. The better way to approach this I think is just to provide a link to the video where ever it is located.

Thanks,

Salem
 
It is clearly visible from the road, and the buildings on the other side of the road.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18700&d=1316309437

That photo was taken from the end of the parking lot above the road. Anyone breaking into the cottage could have checked to see if someone was in the parking lot before attempting to break in, so I don't think that vantage point would be of concern. It was dark, and without headlights on the balcony, it would be very dark.
 
Last I knew, breaking and entering is a sure sign of poor decision making skills in the first place. Expecting such an individual to make decisions that <modsnip> does not strike me as being very realistic.

Regarding the lap top, hot computers aren't exactly easy to get rid of in most developed nations, because of how pawn shops are regulated, and at any rate second hand electronics aren't worth very much anyway, so I've never really understood that argument.

Regarding the murder, that is a fairly common consequence (along with sexual assault and the burglar being killed by the homeowner) of burglary interruptions, so I again don't see where the incredulity and skepticism is coming from on this point.

Burglary does demonstrate poor judgement, but that does not imply that burglars cannot be sneaky. I suspect Guede could have pawned a laptop off to a foreign student.

Meredith was killed in her bedroom, so that is one possibility of where she was when the window was broken. If she was in her bedroom, she would have heard the glass breaking, she would have either locked her room, or left her room to check. If she left her room, she would have been attacked in another area. We know that she didn't lock her door, because the person that attacked her did not need to break the door to get to her. Therefore, it's not likely that she was at home during the time of a staged break in.

If she was not home, she would have arrived seeing lights on in the cottage (I'm assuming Guede did not stumble around in the dark). She would have looked around, called out maybe, perhaps seen the broken glass in Filomina's room. I suspect that she would have left immediately - that's what most sensible people do when they're alone and encounter a possible break in. Perhaps Meredith arrived at home and everything looked normal.

It's also possible that the last two back to back phone calls at 10 PM were Meredith panicked, trying to hit 911, getting the wrong number and trying twice before both phones were taken away. It's not likely that Guede broke into the cottage before or after Meredith arrived. Perhaps no one else was in the cottage and Knox, Sollecito and Guede arrived about an hour later.
 
There are two sets of shutters. What is the discrepancy in her statement regarding the two sets?

Regarding the window, she remembered that she certainly closed the windows, but probably left the inner shutters open; regarding the outer shutters, whilst not being one hundred percent sure, she thought she had pulled them in without closing them both, since the base of the left shutter encountered resistance on the sill due to a swelling of the wood. Her memory was not precise, because she was sure that she had opened the shutters in the morning because she needed light to change clothing...., but she then left in a hurry because she was already late.

Kinda sorta maybe they were closed. Or open. Or partially open.

Maori: But then in the minutes of December 3, page 24, you say that you closed the windows, having pulled the exterior blinds in without fastening them, and having closed only the right interior shutter and not the left one (off microphone)... do you recall (saying) this?

Romanelli: I can honestly say, since that report was done soon after the events I can confirm that because my memory was clearer.

This one outer closed not fastened one inner open the other closed, not fastened.

My point is simply Filomena isn't sure how the shutters were left. Making assumptions that Rudy could not tell they were open or fastened or not in his choice of a break in is not a valid assumption.
 
The other thing I find significant in her statements is that she was in a hurry and was running late. We know she had planned an overnight outing and she had to pack for that. Her room looks like she was doing that and did not have time to straighten up before she left. The position of items and the obvious clutter involved makes it look to me like she left it in that state. The spots of brick dust on the clothes under the window look to me like the clothes were stepped on by someone coming through that window. Having glass on top of those clothes then would support the fact that someone had broken the window from the outside putting glass on top of the clothes that were already there.
 
That photo was taken from the end of the parking lot above the road. Anyone breaking into the cottage could have checked to see if someone was in the parking lot before attempting to break in, so I don't think that vantage point would be of concern. It was dark, and without headlights on the balcony, it would be very dark.

I have posted the picture showing the cottage lamp right next to the balcony twice now. I am going to take Salem's advice and not respond further on the light situation.
 
The below image is from Google Earth, and the lights can be verified by looking at that software. I have marked the lights with a yellow star, and marked the windows on the map. Filomina's bedroom window would have been easily visible from the road. I simply cannot see how it would have been easier to scale a 10 foot wall more than once rather than to climb up over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The trees next to the balcony obscure the balcony.

knoxcottagelights.jpg

It looks to me like you are assuming the cottage storage shed would block the view from the balcony. From above they appear the same height but in reality it is not. From the slight elevation of the road, the balcony should still be visible.
 

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That would be from quite a distance away at the parkade exit. I doubt anyone on the balcony at night would attract any attention from that vantage point.

I guess we have to accept that it was a very stupid burglar if we are to believe that Filomina's bedroom was used to break into the cottage. Apparently this burglar preferred to scale a 10 foot wall 2-3 times, reach through a broken window to open the window while perched in mid-air, throw clothes around the floor instead of steal a laptop and then commit murder instead of burglary. It's not at all surprising the break in was ruled to be staged.
otto,

I am not sure why he had to climb 2-3 times. He could have opened the outer shutters (if they were partially closed) with a stick, and he could have thrown the rock from the parapet. Rudy did not have much success at fencing a computer previously, he probably needed cash right away for rent money, and he may not have had much time before Meredith returned. MOO.
 
otto,

I am not sure why he had to climb 2-3 times. He could have opened the outer shutters (if they were partially closed) with a stick, and he could have thrown the rock from the parapet. Rudy did not have much success at fencing a computer previously, he probably needed cash right away for rent money, and he may not have had much time before Meredith returned. MOO.

I never really understood Massei's argument that a burglar couldn't possibly have climbed up to the window twice anyway. The defence point out in the appeals that breaking into another person's house always requires a bit of effort. In relatively few cases is a burglar going to find a ladder handily propped against an open window with the words "Welcome burglars, please help yourselves" written on the windowsill.
 
I never really understood Massei's argument that a burglar couldn't possibly have climbed up to the window twice anyway. The defence point out in the appeals that breaking into another person's house always requires a bit of effort. In relatively few cases is a burglar going to find a ladder handily propped against an open window with the words "Welcome burglars, please help yourselves" written on the windowsill.

First he would have to climb up to the window to find out the shutters were slightly wedged against the wood. Not wanting to break a fingernail he surely would have gone back down to scour the neighborhood for a shutter opening tool then returning to climb back up to the shutters and open them. Then he would have to go back down and return or hide his shutter opening tool and climb back up. When he found the widow latched he would then climb back down to find something to break the window with. After throwing the rock through the window only then would he climb back up to make entrance into Filomena's room.
 
Last I knew, breaking and entering is a sure sign of poor decision making skills in the first place. Expecting such an individual to make decisions that <modsnip> does not strike me as being very realistic.

Regarding the lap top, hot computers aren't exactly easy to get rid of in most developed nations, because of how pawn shops are regulated, and at any rate second hand electronics aren't worth very much anyway, so I've never really understood that argument.

Regarding the murder, that is a fairly common consequence (along with sexual assault and the burglar being killed by the homeowner) of burglary interruptions, so I again don't see where the incredulity and skepticism is coming from on this point.

But Rudy had been caught with a stolen laptop in the past so this statement does not particularly apply to this situation.

Do you have any kind of statistics about murder and sexual assault being a fairly common consequence of burglary interruptions? In particular I would think the sexual assault part of it would not be common. I could see a murder happening in an escalating situation but honestly at that point I would think a burgular would be pretty freaked out and not likely to hang around for a sexual assault. Just my opinion - I have not researched the issue.

FH
 
otto,

I am not sure why he had to climb 2-3 times. He could have opened the outer shutters (if they were partially closed) with a stick, and he could have thrown the rock from the parapet. Rudy did not have much success at fencing a computer previously, he probably needed cash right away for rent money, and he may not have had much time before Meredith returned. MOO.

However opening the outer shutters with a stick becomes difficult if they are wedged closed and you are standing at a distance from the shutters. I would also imagine there would have been a significantly sized stick lying around for the investigators to see.

Rudy would not have known how much time he had or did not have before Meredith returned. My point was he walked right by the laptop and did not even attempt to take it, yet he rifled through clothes in closets/cabinets. That just seems strange to me. If you think about him entering through the window, then what does he do next - start pulling clothes out of cabinets - then the upset stomach? It almost appears as if he knew exactly what he was looking for and it was something someone would hide in amongst clothes, which makes no sense. I cannot think of any narrative for that first 5-10 minutes that makes sense.

FH
 
However opening the outer shutters with a stick becomes difficult if they are wedged closed and you are standing at a distance from the shutters. I would also imagine there would have been a significantly sized stick lying around for the investigators to see.

Rudy would not have known how much time he had or did not have before Meredith returned. My point was he walked right by the laptop and did not even attempt to take it, yet he rifled through clothes in closets/cabinets. That just seems strange to me. If you think about him entering through the window, then what does he do next - start pulling clothes out of cabinets - then the upset stomach? It almost appears as if he knew exactly what he was looking for and it was something someone would hide in amongst clothes, which makes no sense. I cannot think of any narrative for that first 5-10 minutes that makes sense.

FH


My own opinion is that Filomena's room was already cluttered and messy, and that Guede gave this point of entry little or no attention as he proceeded to the interior of the cottage. It appears logical that at some point he opened Laura's drawer to see what was inside.

Beyond that, based on Guede's Skype conversation we know that he took a drink from the fridge. Perhaps he did this almost immediately. My understanding is that some burglars experience a certain frisson or thrill from making themselves at home in a space they have broken into. So I would posit that Guede took the drink very soon after arriving, and then nature called.

I'll relate a personal story that, in my opinion, is pertinent. About ten years ago, a late-night burglary attempt was made on my apartment at the time in Los Angeles. The trick is that my girlfriend and I were in the apartment, asleep on the living room sofa. We had both apparently fallen asleep to a DVD and the room was dimly lit only by the blue screen of the television. I was stirred from my sleep and looked up to see an African American man about 6' 1" crossing into the room toward the electronics. He did not seem to even notice us, but was intent on a path that I assume was his MO.

Instincts took over and I leaped up from the couch and yelled "Who the hell are you?!" Obviously surprised, he replied sheepishly "Who are you?" I groped for something on the coffee table that would serve as a weapon and screamed back "Who am I? I live here!" As my girlfriend cowered on the sofa, he raced past me, back into the hallway and out the same bedroom window he had entered.

After I collected myself and consoled my girlfriend, I went into my bedroom. The burglar had left the room completely untouched. My Rolex Sea Dweller still on the nightstand, my laptop still on the desk.

Again, I think many burglars have an MO, and they are of course initially on their toes as they enter a space with which they are unfamiliar, and which may or may not contain human inhabitants.
 
Rudy would not have known how much time he had or did not have before Meredith returned. My point was he walked right by the laptop and did not even attempt to take it, yet he rifled through clothes in closets/cabinets. That just seems strange to me. If you think about him entering through the window, then what does he do next - start pulling clothes out of cabinets - then the upset stomach? It almost appears as if he knew exactly what he was looking for and it was something someone would hide in amongst clothes, which makes no sense. I cannot think of any narrative for that first 5-10 minutes that makes sense.

FH
FH,

Yes of course he did not know how much time he had, but it still might have been a short time. However, I also lean toward a scenario where he is looking through drawers for rent money (which is payed in cash, IIUC) when nature called. Either of those two things (or both) might lead to a scenario where he ignores items that have to be fenced.
 
I have posted the picture showing the cottage lamp right next to the balcony twice now. I am going to take Salem's advice and not respond further on the light situation.

The outside light at the cottage is not a street light. No one was home in the downstairs flat. Why would that light be on?
 
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