17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30

[Elley Mae]

The thing is -- I've never known a party where bouncers had to be there -- where strippers weren't involved. That is what an "illegal party" is. A bouncer would not be at a simple house party with a bunch of kids drinking and doing drugs. They are there for a reason and that reason is to protect the girls and to make sure they get their money.

I have been to lots of clubs (in the past) that had "bouncer" at the door and no naked women. I have also seen the Chippendale dancer's that had bouncer's too. jmo:blushing: great show btw

 

[LolaMoon08]

In my opinion, and my opinion only, it's a far stretch to say that a mutually physical altercation between a couple (that the fiancée apparently admitted to in the 911 call, according to testimony at the bond hearing) and pushing the arm of a plainclothes LEO who may or may not have identified themselves, is indicative that he would have thrown a woman across the room at a party. Yes, there were violent instances in his past, but nothing even close to that level of unprovoked "rage' violence. I find it more believable that someone came out and was paid some money to embellish a story. It's pretty much unsourced except for one "anonymous" tipster.

I respect your opinion. I can't make excuses for any man that puts his hands on a woman. The moment my father put his hands on my mother and held a gun to her head -- my mom left -- with three small children to raise on her own. I witnessed that. I witnessed my mother's strength as a single mother who worked, went to school, and raised three girls.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think a woman should ever put her hands on a man either -- but the best thing to do -- as a man, if it becomes physical, is to walk away.

MOO

 

[LolaMoon08]

I have been to lots of clubs (in the past) that had "bouncer" at the door and no naked women. I have also seen the Chippendale dancer's that had bouncer's too. jmo:blushing: great show btw

Bouncers are at all kinds of clubs, I'm talking about "illegal" parties.

ETA: We used to have male reviews at the club I worked at every 4 months! Lot's of fun!! Girls are so much worse than men when it comes to seeing naked men vs. naked women. Ha!

 

[m00c0w]

I respect your opinion. I can't make excuses for any man that puts his hands on a woman. The moment my father put his hands on my mother and held a gun to her head -- my mom left -- with three small children to raise on her own. I witnessed that. I witnessed my mother's strength as a single mother who worked, went to school, and raised three girls.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think a woman should ever put her hands on a man either -- but the best thing to do -- as a man, if it becomes physical, is to walk away.

MOO

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing him. I just don't think the levels of violence are proportional to each other in the two documented scenarios versus the undocumented scenario.

 

[cityslick]

I have never called him an evil monster. However, IMO four incidents of "oh, it's not so bad, maybe he had a good reason to assault/kill that person" by the age of 28 are four too many.

And if the former co-worker is to be trusted the ankle twisting incident wasn't the only one in which GZ snapped and got out of control.

It was 8 years ago, it's not like this stuff has happened recently. Yea, I get it, he got himself into some trouble when he was 20-21, but he's being put on the same level as habitual offenders who have been in and out of jail their whole lives.

ETA: I've known some violent people in my life. Compared to them, GZ's past history make him look like a creampuff.

 

[Donjeta]

JMO, I think bouncers are quite likely anywhere that people do business selling alcohol illegally whether or not there is prostitution.

 

[who]

Thanks. Responded and dispatched is not the same as arrived and on the scene, obviously.
I have no clue why people are claiming the officers arrived at the scene on those times.

I think people have been assuming the police arrived on the crime scene at 7:17, because:

a) That's the time noted in the police report
b) THe 911 "gunshots" caller noted immediately after there were people with flashlights. That would make it 7:17, as the shot went off at like 7:16: (I wanna say 46? Not gonna look it up right now)

I think knowing Z had flashlights on him, it might now be considered it was GZ with the lights, and neighbors starting to come out, and it's possible the police arrived closer to 7:19-7:20

Just my thoughts.

 

[Phoenixfla]

I respect your opinion. I can't make excuses for any man that puts his hands on a woman. The moment my father put his hands on my mother and held a gun to her head -- my mom left -- with three small children to raise on her own. I witnessed that. I witnessed my mother's strength as a single mother who worked, went to school, and raised three girls.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think a woman should ever put her hands on a man either -- but the best thing to do -- as a man, if it becomes physical, is to walk away.

MOO

Your absoultely right.

As i understand it, all we have regarding the ex-fiancee incident was her TSO, and he had one against her also. No charges filed, no one found guilty of anything.

 

[who]

<BBM>

Do we know the exact time LE first made actual contact with GZ after the shooting?

I don't think the two partial police reports indicate such, JMO:

• [1] Officer Ayala's report states he was "dispatched" at approximately 19:17, or 7:17pm.
  
• He states that while he was en route, the 911 calls reporting the shooting started coming in (time not indicated, but presumably available elsewhere).
  
• Then, when he arrived (time not indicated), Officer Smith already had the shooter in custody.

--

• [2] Officer Smith's report says he "responded" at approximately 19:17. The address he responded to was the club house IMO, 1111 Retreat View Circle; i.e. he headed there first.
  
• As he arrived, (time not indicated) dispatch was getting 911 reports of shots fired at a different address, and 911 reports of a subject lying in the grass at yet another address.
  
• So he re-routed down to 2821 Retreat View Circle, parked his patrol car, got out, and began to canvas the area (time not indicated.)
  
• He states that as he walked between the buildings, he first observed GZ (time not indicated). He doesn't mention whether GZ was standing or not, nor whether he was using a cell phone. Smith also saw TM on the ground.
  
• Smith says he spoke with GZ, ascertained he was the original caller re the suspicious person, GZ told Smith he was also the shooter, GZ informed Smith he had the gun in his waistband.
  
• Smith says GZ complied with all of his verbal commands, he placed GZ in handcuffs, then secured the gun from his waistband (time not indicated).
  
• He says that Ayala arrived shortly after GZ was secured (time not indicated).

~ Paraphrased by me from police reports, any errors are mine. JMO ~

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf


HTH with the timeline. I don't see any actual times given in the narratives, besides 19:17 specified as both the time of "dispatch" (Ayala) and "response" (Smith), but ICBW.

----
In any case, IMO the police reports indicate that GZ was not yet handcuffed by the time the pic was snapped. JMO

Great post. Thank you.

 

[lauriej]

Perhaps the picture-taker was a witness? A neighbor, as has been suggested? ICBW, but the timing of the picture doesn't indicate anything at all suspicious to me, timeline-wise.

BBM/JMO

--according to this, it was someone who "heard the fight".


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

matt gutman—"sources tell ABC news that investigators have seen the photograph and are aware of the photographer’s story."
matt gutman—"the person who took the photograph tells ABC news exclusively he heard martin and Zimmerman fight before the shooting and that after martin was killed, a wobbly Zimmerman asked the photographer to call zimmerman’s wife, allegedly blurting out “ man, just tell her I shot someone.”

 

[rossva]

BBM Again, I would love to see from an attorney if George Zimmerman is in fact getting special treatment in the incidences listed below:

I agree. I can't understand all the special treatment he's receiving. He should be treated as any other person accused of a crime in the state Florida. He shouldn't have been allowed to wear a suit during the bond hearing. His family should have been made come to court if they were testifying on his behalf. He should have not been allowed to address the family during his time on the stand. He shouldn't be allowed to leave the state of Florida. I'm sick of all this special treatment. He is an accused murderer and he should be treated that way. Perhaps if he had been held accountable for his previous actions, Trayvon wouldn't be dead and laying in a mausoleum right now.


~jmo~

 

[Desdemona]

I hope you WSleuthers don't think I'm crazy when I say I think there are other voice/voices that are in the background on the Zimmerman 911 tape. I do hear them. During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when [they’re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight. In other words he couldn't have been on his way back and ambushed. That Zimmerman had stopped following of Martin and was walking back to his truck and confronted by Martin has to be hogwash IMO. I'm no Colombo but I do have headphones. <p>Do any of you hear the voices? :crosseyed:<p>

I don't hear what you hear, but have listened to many dispatch recordings, and there are often odd artifacts from the connection, from background noises, or other call-takers in the vicinity at dispatch. Kind of a pareidolia of the ears, LOL. I don't think you are crazy at all, and who knows, your impression could very well be accurate, even if some others (like me) can't hear it.

BBM/JMO

 

[who]

--according to this, it was someone who "heard the fight".


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

matt gutman—"sources tell ABC news that investigators have seen the photograph and are aware of the photographer’s story."
matt gutman—"the person who took the photograph tells ABC news exclusively he heard martin and Zimmerman fight before the shooting and that after martin was killed, a wobbly Zimmerman asked the photographer to call zimmerman’s wife, allegedly blurting out “ man, just tell her I shot someone.”

My gut says: It's the "john" witness.

 

[Donjeta]

It was 8 years ago, it's not like this stuff has happened recently. Yea, I get it, he got himself into some trouble when he was 20-21, but he's being put on the same level as habitual offenders who have been in and out of jail their whole lives.

ETA: I've known some violent people in my life. Compared to them, GZ's past history make him look like a creampuff.

Oh, it must have been OK for him to shoot a teenager then.
Clearly he cannot have murdered anyone if there are people with worse jail history.

 

[grandmaj]

Hey my peeps.......... speculation based on the incident of the party is allowed.

But now I am seeing this grow too many legs and it truly is only speculation........ let's zip the discussion for now please. Because we don't have any MSM verification that anyone was a prostitute or prostitution was ongoing. 10-4?

I'm really worried that the next thing I read will be that there is some type of flamingo pimp or some such thing. :lol:

 

[Donjeta]

This is OT but there are more georgezimmermans out there: the armed neighborhood watch in action in Georgia attacking new neighbors

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/new-homeowners-met-gun-wielding-neighbors/nMd7C/

The neighbors with the guns apparently thought the Kalonjis were breaking into the home, didn't believe they owned it and called the Newton County Sheriff's Office after threatening with the guns.

The Kahlonjis didn't have the closing paperwork with them. Deputies arrested the couple, charging them with loitering and prowling.

 

[Desdemona]

I noticed that during one span of his redirect questioning of Investigator Gilbreath, Attorney O’Mara repeated the contention that his client had turned and was “walking towards his car” a total of SEVEN times in a matter of minutes. It’s clearly a part of the core of the defense strategy that’s now locked into the record and will be a point that will be driven to a jury.

Did it ever cross this attorney’s mind that a jury might wonder just exactly how far his client may have “followed” Trayvon before “turning back” towards his car?

Does this attorney not understand that GZ told LE that he had turned back towards his car at [07:12:00 pm] after being told “We don’t need you to do that”?



Does he not comprehend that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon FIVE MINUTES later at [07:16:41 pm] and was TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET from his car?

Does this this attorney not understand that George Zimmerman got out of his vehicle at [07:11:42 pm] and in his own statements to LE, says he only followed Trayvon for EIGHTEEN SECONDS?

IMO, once the jury wraps their minds around the fact that this “went back towards his car” after 18 seconds, clearly could not have happened, pictures that show up of an alleged little “boo boo” on George’s head, TWO MONTHS after the SFD EMT’s cleared him for transport in a matter of minutes, aren’t going to play a significant role in their verdict.

I think they will be able to readily see that George Zimmerman didn’t stand his ground, he CHASED it. They will see that his “ground” was an unarmed 17 year old kid who had broken no laws and was just trying to go home.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30

IMO all of your impressive work is to be admired, Papa. However, I don't think any conclusions can be presumed factual unless/until we learn the accurate substance of GZ's statement(s) to police that night, and evidence collected in the investigation.

Expert and perfect calculations can nevertheless reach incorrect conclusions if the data used is not accurate. JMO

 

[Just K]

The back of his head is shown briefly but clearly, IMO, when he's leaving the arraignment hearing in this video. I don't see any evidence whatsoever of any bumps, scars, etc.

http://www.reuters.com/video/2012/04/12/zimmerman-appears-before-judge-no-bail-d?videoId=233233368

IMO

Yes, and it has been barely two months...if there had been any severe injury the scarring would be visible and it is not.

 

[Concerned Papa]

I don't hear what you hear, but have listened to many dispatch recordings, and there are often odd artifacts from the connection, from background noises, or other call-takers in the vicinity at dispatch. Kind of a pareidolia of the ears, LOL. I don't think you are crazy at all, and who knows, your impression could very well be accurate, even if some others (like me) can't hear it.

BBM/JMO

IIRC, it was poster csziggy that posted copies of the officer's dispatch logs for 2/26. I'm pretty sure he/she is the one that posted the link.

Officer Ayala's arrival time is shown as 7:19 on the document. I went back a couple of days and looked but couldn't find it. Watch for csziggy to get back, I will also, but he/she has the info on Ayala and Smith's arrival times.

 

[katydid23]

Sure, why not? He has a history of putting his hands on people when he shouldn't? If he had no history of putting his hands on people, then I would be more than willing to not believe it. He has a history of being aggressive -- he chased down a motorist for crying out loud.

It would also be another thing if the former co-worker was saying he was a <modslipping myself> but he didn't. He said he was usually a cool guy, but when he lost his temper, he REALLY lost his temper.

Any man that would put their hands on any woman is no man at all. There are ways of dealing with drunk women -- or even high women. If he was getting so upset, he should have walked away and had the other bouncer deal with her. He doesn't know how to just walk away and he takes everything to an extreme.

MOO

He was a bouncer, and we hear of one isolated incident where he supposedly lost his cool. One person comes forward with one story. So I am not sure if it is accurate or not.

I just know from working with my dad's law practice, that anytime someone is arrested, lots of people come out of the woodwork with stories. And they do not all end up being totally accurate.