Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,



No, I cannot cite source for 'soaked' carpet. It's simply my speculation by knowing that urine has been found on the carpet next to WC. How much of urine has been found? I don't know. I didn't see such a references (not in PMPT, not in ST, not in Kolar book) to the QUANTITY of the urine on the carpet and JBR panties. Because urine on the front of the panties and urine on the carpet - we all assumed that JBR was redressed FIRST and strangulated SECOND, right? I just simply try to speculate that this could NOT be the case. If carpet was wet already by urine (due to strangulation) then redressed new panties could became wet from the carpet...Just a simple 'theory'/possibility on my part...



You see, I'm NOT going to ask you where is your source of urine 'SOAKED' size-12......



Agree on this one. IMO, the 'garrotte' part wasn't usefull/workable at all in JBR strangulation. This piece of broken wood was added to hide the real purpose of the paintbrush and to add the 'kidnapper terror' effect. 'Garrotte' was a dummy proms, JMO. Therefore, in my original post, I said that one element of the 'staging' was 'adding 'garrotte'. However, unfortunately, the strangulation itself by rope was NOT staged!...JMO...until someone would logically convinced me that getting urine from the carpet to the panties is NOT possible...

OpenMind4U,

You see, I'm NOT going to ask you where is your source of urine 'SOAKED' size-12......

Autopsy Report.

There would have to be a pool of urine for it to soak through the longjohns and stain the size-12's in such a short period. But I have seen no published evidence of any urine staining anywhere in the basement in the vicinity of the wine-cellar.

It seems logical to reason that JonBenet was lying on her stomach when asphyxiated, thereby evacuating her bladder, causing the urine stains. Whether this reached the carpet is a moot point?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,

Autopsy Report.

There would have to be a pool of urine for it to soak through the longjohns and stain the size-12's in such a short period. But I have seen no published evidence of any urine staining anywhere in the basement in the vicinity of the wine-cellar.

It seems logical to reason that JonBenet was lying on her stomach when asphyxiated, thereby evacuating her bladder, causing the urine stains. Whether this reached the carpet is a moot point?


.

You're wrong. 'There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Most investigators believe this is the area in which she was killed.'...

 

[UKGuy]

You're wrong. 'There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Most investigators believe this is the area in which she was killed.'...

OpenMind4U,
Well I doubt that. You have source for that?



.

 

[otg]

I probably said too many times on this forum that notion of the final 'strangulation' performed as the part of the 'staging' - always bothered me! I couldn't see this action to be done by PR or JR. And after reading Kolar's book in regards of estimated 90 min between the head blow and strangulation - was like WOW, how this could fits into 'staging'?!!!! This new evidence has turned my brain upside down....

At the beginning, I was doubting myself: is it really possible that whoever 'stage' the crime (cleaning, redressing) could tide the rope until JBR's last breath for the sake to alter the actual crime scene? Is it possible that such an act could be done by the parents in the name of the 'mercy'?....No matter how much I tried to reason myself that parents could do such a thing in the name of saving another child (BR) - I couldn't get my mind to accept such a thing! But the FACT that JBR Bloomy's size 12 and longjohns panties were wet with urine on the FRONT indicates that her last breath from the strangulation happens right there, next to WC (as urine stained carpet indicated), AFTER she was cleaned-up and re-dressed. So, why it's still bothering me?! Why I cannot take these FACTS and adjust my theory/scenario?!...

Every criminologist would tell you that each crime has it's own MO (Modus Operandi). In JBR murder, we saw actions of RAGE (head blow) and TORTURE (acute vaginal injury w/paintbrush and strangulation by rope) and we saw completely opposite MO: 'caring' actions in the 'staging' - how is it possible that the same person could perform some of these both actions??? Shoot (I said to myself), but we have an urine stained panties which have been just 'redressed!'...

'Upon their removal, the underwear and long-johns were observed to contain dried, yellowish colored urine stains and the underwear contained two small circular stains of blood in the crotch'. (Kolar book, page 57).

....and here what 'hit' me last night...What if....
- BR is the one who done both, the RAGE and TORTURE acts;
- PR/JR found JBR already death, in basement, by WC, laying on her stomach;
- the 'staging' begins by cleaning, re-dressing, breaking the paintbrush, adding the 'garrote'...
- BUT BECAUSE CARPET WAS ALREADY SOAKED WITH AN URINE - the newly re-dressed panties got wet FROM the carpet.

Does this scenario has any sense???....or I should have another sleepless night?....

OM4U,

I too have always had a problem with the idea of a parent putting their child “out of their misery”. I simply can’t see it. I don’t want to be blind to the possibility of something simply because I find it hard to believe, but I still don’t think it’s a realistic answer to putting together the clues. Is it possible someone could have not known she was still alive due to lower heartbeat/breathing and done this mistakenly? I suppose, but again -- I don’t think it very likely. And I guess the reason I think that is because of how much certainty I look for before I make any kind of decision -- no matter how small -- that will have lasting consequences without making sure I didn’t overlook something. That’s why I can’t see a parent placing something on a child’s neck that would cause their death if they saw even the most remote possibility that the child was still alive. And how much more likely is it that a parent refuses to believe their child to be dead and beyond help when it is obvious when it is obvious to everyone else?

This is all why I’m still having such a difficult time with the revelation from Kolar’s book about the length of time between the head blow and the strangulation. I still have doubts and haven’t yet accepted it as fact, but I haven’t read the book yet either.

It is interesting in your post how you draw the difference between the different things that were done to JonBenet, and how emotionally opposite to one another some of those things are. This (I think anyway) accents the fact that these things were done by different people.

As to your point about the panties absorbing the urine from the carpet... yes, you are absolutely correct. And it’s a point I don’t think anyone else has thought of. At least, I’ve never heard it postulated anywhere. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken.

The phenomena you are referring to is called “wicking”. Today, we think of a wick as the string in the middle of a wax candle. But long before we had wax candles, people used liquid candles (oil or kerosene lamps). A cloth or string placed into a liquid soaks up that liquid to a point of saturation. As that liquid burns off (in a lamp), it absorbs more liquid. This “wicking” is due to what is called capillary action (or capillarity) in physics, but that is why we still call the string in a wax candle a “wick”. Capillary action is why a paper towel or a sponge will absorb liquid, which is basically what you are talking about having happened here with JonBenet’s panties.

BTW, on a side note meaning absolutely nothing, Albert Einstein’s first scientific publication in 1901 was on the subject of capillarity.
Also, Albert Einstein did not receive a Nobel Prize for his Theory of Relativity as most people believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_publications_by_Albert_Einstein
Instead, it was awarded for his discovery of the photoelectric effect -- probably as a deliberate snub by the Nobel Prize Committee.
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/sep/einstein-nobel-prize

 

[blefuscu]

I agree. JR is the strongest suspect. I also agree that if they were colluding they'd have got their story straight. If even one parent knew about the pineapple, then the story they tell the cops would be that they fed her pineapple. No harm in that. (It's not actually illegal to eat pineapple in the us Either they are both ignorant of the pineapple eating (e.g. she ate it after they went to bed, or while they were in the living room, etc.) or she really was put to bed upon arrival home, but one parent fed her pineapple later in the night, but cannot reveal that to the other parent.

I wonder how much of that morning PR truly remembers. From what I've read, and I'll hold my hands up that it's probably only a fraction of what many of you guys have, PR was sedated for a large part of the immediate days and weeks following December 26th. It makes me wonder how much of the information PR revealed comes from what JR and his legal team fed her. I'm wondering if PR could have been highly suggestible in her sedated/post sedated state.

 

[otg]

OpenMind4U,
Can you cite your source for the urine soaked carpet?

Also some think the blanket and pillow from her bed was used to comfort her down in the basement. Its likely JonBenet was slipping in and out of consciousness, the R's must have known she was dying in front of them!

The urine soaked size-12's suggest JonBenet was redressed prior to being asphyxiated.

No paintbrush handle is required to asphyxiate JonBenet. Simply smothering her by hand, or use of plastic bag, or mouth covering would do the job.

This is why the asphyxiation appears to be staged, and it might be the stager thought JonBenet was dead, and they needed some visual effects to explain away her death, since the head blow was invisible.

Why would one R, stage a crime-scene for another R, if it had all been accidental?

Answer: because JonBenet was being regularly sexually abused, and all the R's knew this.

Some of Patsy's friends were concerned how JonBenet was being groomed for
pageants, with the makeup, platinum-dyed hair, her behaviour was creating what they termed a "Mega-JonBenet Thing", so even friends suspected something was going on, except they viewed it through the lens of the pageants.

Tricia might want to get those friends in for an interview, I'll bet the gossip might be unpublishable?
.

UKG,

I don't quite know what would be a good word to describe it, but don't you think it's at least a little annoying to ask someone else to cite a source for something that is generally accepted now as a probability (the urine on the carpet outside the WC), while in the very next sentence referring to a pillow in the basement that to my knowledge no one has documented. And since you volunteered that it is the AR that refers to "urine soaked size-12's", could you tell us where that reference occurs.

I don't recall where, but I do believe the urine on the carpet has been confirmed recently. It might have been in one of Kolar's interviews, but I'm not going to go listening to it just to confirm it for someone else.

I won't belabour the point with you beyond this, but don't you think it would be just a little more productive to question the reasoning behind the statements (which you are very good at) than to simply ask for a source on something that so many people have discussed for so long?
.

 

[UKGuy]

UKG,

I don't quite know what would be a good word to describe it, but don't you think it's at least a little annoying to ask someone else to cite a source for something that is generally accepted now as a probability (the urine on the carpet outside the WC), while in the very next sentence referring to a pillow in the basement that to my knowledge no one has documented. And since you volunteered that it is the AR that refers to "urine soaked size-12's", could you tell us where that reference occurs.

I don't recall where, but I do believe the urine on the carpet has been confirmed recently. It might have been in one of Kolar's interviews, but I'm not going to go listening to it just to confirm it for someone else.

I won't belabour the point with you beyond this, but don't you think it would be just a little more productive to question the reasoning behind the statements (which you are very good at) than to simply ask for a source on something that so many people have discussed for so long?
.

otg,

than to simply ask for a source on something that so many people have discussed for so long?

Because I'm being polite. We have been over this before and found that the urine on the carpet is a factoid.

I don't recall where, but I do believe the urine on the carpet has been confirmed recently. It might have been in one of Kolar's interviews, but I'm not going to go listening to it just to confirm it for someone else.

Well I hope Kolar has confirmed the existence of the urine on the carpet, otherwise the factoid continues to be propagated?

And since you volunteered that it is the AR that refers to "urine soaked size-12's", could you tell us where that reference occurs.

You know the size-12's are described as having urine stains, e.g. they were soaked with urine, call that artistic licence on my part. I think I was just being lazy and copying the posters own phrase.

while in the very next sentence referring to a pillow in the basement that to my knowledge no one has documented.

Well it has been documented. It was the one on JonBenet's bed that had a bloodstain on it. The speculation is this is why it was found at the bottom of the bed, and not the top.


.

 

[redheadedgal]

in 6+ years reading about this case i've never read anything about a pillow being in the basement... can you give that source?

 

[UKGuy]

in 6+ years reading about this case i've never read anything about a pillow being in the basement... can you give that source?

redheadedgal,
If you read the posts the pillow being in the basement is speculation, but the pillow exists, it was on the bottom of JonBenet's bed.

Again some have speculated that the white blanket and pillow from her bed were taken to wherever she was, allegedly the basement and comforted? Then when she was killed the pillow was simply placed back on her bed, at the bottom?

I'm not sure I buy this myself but it hangs together if you think it mainly all happened in the basement?


.

 

[redheadedgal]

you first said the pillow in the basement was "documented" (post 448) ... now it's "speculation"? sorry but-- two very different things imo...

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
Well I doubt that. You have source for that?


.

Yes, we ALL do. Straight from Mr. Kolar, himself! Please go on the top of WS page and listen to Tricia's 'Crime Radio' interview with Mr. Kolar. At 97:34 mark, you'll hear 'cynic' asking this particular question and you'll hear the Kolar's response.

I'm glad you asked for the 'source'. Because this discussion will help many others to remember that urine on the carpet next to WC is the valid evidence, not the 'moot point'....

 

[midwest mama]

That's basically my take on it, too. I think they left the garotte in place because it was too late, all the damage was done, and they knew the police would question why an unknown murderer would have bothered to remove it. Likewise, it seems to me that the ties around JBR's wrists had been part of the original scenario, placed for effect but not restraint, and were left there to serve a quickly-hatched storyline. I've never believed that the staging involved anything other than cleaning and wrapping her up, and writing that crazy ransom note. No one in the house was thinking clearly, evidenced by all the counterintuitive, contradictory, insane things that were done. And they got away with it, which is just unbearable. MOO.

Wouldn't it be possible that if JB was found by her parents showing all the trauma, they ASSUMED she was already dead? That would lead to them writing a crazy ransom note to make it look like a kidnapping. They would have planned to hide/dispose of her body, and sometime during it all go ahead and call police so she could later then be 'found' dead, just as the kidnappers threatened. Forensic evidence showed Patsy's fibers tied into the "garrote", so why couldn't they have thought to make her death look like she'd been strangled by those horrible kidnappers. Twist to the whole thing is that JB still had life left in her, and they didn't realize the tightening of that ligature would have been the final deed. I don't think Patsy had the guts to pull that cord, so JR had to, and when she let go of her bladder, they really freaked out, so wrapped her in her blanket to cover up the 'wetness' as they would have had to handle her during the hiding/disposal. Time was running out on them to get her out of the house successfully, so they stashed her thinking they could take care of that once the police focused away from the house, as they expected them to do.

 

[DeeDee249]

Wouldn't it be possible that if JB was found by her parents showing all the trauma, they ASSUMED she was already dead? That would lead to them writing a crazy ransom note to make it look like a kidnapping. They would have planned to hide/dispose of her body, and sometime during it all go ahead and call police so she could later then be 'found' dead, just as the kidnappers threatened. Forensic evidence showed Patsy's fibers tied into the "garrote", so why couldn't they have thought to make her death look like she'd been strangled by those horrible kidnappers. Twist to the whole thing is that JB still had life left in her, and they didn't realize the tightening of that ligature would have been the final deed. I don't think Patsy had the guts to pull that cord, so JR had to, and when she let go of her bladder, they really freaked out, so wrapped her in her blanket to cover up the 'wetness' as they would have had to handle her during the hiding/disposal. Time was running out on them to get her out of the house successfully, so they stashed her thinking they could take care of that once the police focused away from the house, as they expected them to do.

This is exactly what many people believe, and has been said for years. If she was comatose and in shock (both very likely given the horrific head bash), her respiration would be shallow- perhaps so shallow that an untrained person would not be aware of it) and her body temperature would drop also, making her feel cool to the touch. This is OT, but a few years ago when my black Lab ate a street drug that had been dropped in a driveway on her daily walk, she went into shock a few hours later. I didn't know what was wrong with her - I wasn't the one who walked her- but she felt COLD. Even through her fur, and it was July. I noticed that, looked into her glazed eyes and took her to the vet. She didn't make it. But I will never forget how cold she felt while she was still alive.

 

[UKGuy]

you first said the pillow in the basement was "documented" (post 448) ... now it's "speculation"? sorry but-- two very different things imo...

redheadedgal,
The pillow with JonBenet's bloodstain is documented. That it was ever in the basement is speculation. How difficult is that?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, we ALL do. Straight from Mr. Kolar, himself! Please go on the top of WS page and listen to Tricia's 'Crime Radio' interview with Mr. Kolar. At 97:34 mark, you'll hear 'cynic' asking this particular question and you'll hear the Kolar's response.

I'm glad you asked for the 'source'. Because this discussion will help many others to remember that urine on the carpet next to WC is the valid evidence, not the 'moot point'....

OpenMind4U,
Excellent, this is new for me, I'll listen to this shortly.


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM4U,

I too have always had a problem with the idea of a parent putting their child “out of their misery”. I simply can’t see it. I don’t want to be blind to the possibility of something simply because I find it hard to believe, but I still don’t think it’s a realistic answer to putting together the clues. Is it possible someone could have not known she was still alive due to lower heartbeat/breathing and done this mistakenly? I suppose, but again -- I don’t think it very likely. And I guess the reason I think that is because of how much certainty I look for before I make any kind of decision -- no matter how small -- that will have lasting consequences without making sure I didn’t overlook something. That’s why I can’t see a parent placing something on a child’s neck that would cause their death if they saw even the most remote possibility that the child was still alive. And how much more likely is it that a parent refuses to believe their child to be dead and beyond help when it is obvious when it is obvious to everyone else?

This is all why I’m still having such a difficult time with the revelation from Kolar’s book about the length of time between the head blow and the strangulation. I still have doubts and haven’t yet accepted it as fact, but I haven’t read the book yet either.

It is interesting in your post how you draw the difference between the different things that were done to JonBenet, and how emotionally opposite to one another some of those things are. This (I think anyway) accents the fact that these things were done by different people.

As to your point about the panties absorbing the urine from the carpet... yes, you are absolutely correct. And it’s a point I don’t think anyone else has thought of. At least, I’ve never heard it postulated anywhere. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken.

The phenomena you are referring to is called “wicking”. Today, we think of a wick as the string in the middle of a wax candle. But long before we had wax candles, people used liquid candles (oil or kerosene lamps). A cloth or string placed into a liquid soaks up that liquid to a point of saturation. As that liquid burns off (in a lamp), it absorbs more liquid. This “wicking” is due to what is called capillary action (or capillarity) in physics, but that is why we still call the string in a wax candle a “wick”. Capillary action is why a paper towel or a sponge will absorb liquid, which is basically what you are talking about having happened here with JonBenet’s panties.

BTW, on a side note meaning absolutely nothing, Albert Einstein’s first scientific publication in 1901 was on the subject of capillarity.
Also, Albert Einstein did not receive a Nobel Prize for his Theory of Relativity as most people believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_publications_by_Albert_Einstein
Instead, it was awarded for his discovery of the photoelectric effect -- probably as a deliberate snub by the Nobel Prize Committee.
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/sep/einstein-nobel-prize

otg,

Thank you very much for the response. Your opinion means a lot to me!...Regarding of 'wicking', (way back to my youth years the kerosene lamp was the main source of the light for our family in evening. The same kerosene 'primus' (an 'apparatus' on which we prepared our dinner) was used on daily basis as well....funny you mention that and let me go back in time...

Regarding possiility of 'wicking' urine from the carpet to the panties - WELL, let me tell you - it makes me very-very happy! Thank you!!! Now, the only one unknown piece exist: the medical history of BR. I really would like to know the CAPABILITY of his 'effects'?...of course, we'll never know about...not soon...not in my life....and thanks to you - I'll sleep tonight!!!:woohoo:

 

[Oldsoul2]

I know the jist of this case but haven't followed it in minute detail the way the posters here have but I have a take on it from a different non forensic perpective that has always crossed my mind since the case broke. I never exclude the human nature factor of any case. Pasty had to be sedated after this happened, yes, I get it, it's the mother but keep in mind not all mothers who actually kill or participate in killing their child have remorse, in fact, most times not, follow Casey Anthony. Therefore, I strongly believe it was not Patsy. Did she know what happened? I believe YES absolutely, did she aid in a cover-up YES. Also, I believe her guilt riddled her with cancer just IMO. The father on the other hand began his get away right away and behaved IMO like a full blown guilty person. If the father in fact did have these tendencies, ie: child molesting etc.... then Patsy would have known this long before this day occurred and the son could have witnessed this many times before going on in the home. Maybe he was thinking, its ok for my father to do it, so I'll do it, I'll be just like him. IMO chances are the son started, it went too far, the father came in and finished it off, Patsy covered it up to protect her son and the going ons of the home and who her husband really was since she now had a dead daughter and a wealthy husband. The behaviours of these people spoke volumes. I will never believe someone came into the house and brutally raped and killed JB in the basement right under their noses and they didn't see or hear anything...I don't know how anyone, LE, the public, anyone could ever believe that theory.

 

[txsvicki]

Wicking into two layers of clothes would happen if a person lay down on a wet spot in the carpet, but it might not wick up into the crotch area of both layers of clothing.

 

[redheadedgal]

redheadedgal,
The pillow with JonBenet's bloodstain is documented. That it was ever in the basement is speculation. How difficult is that?

that is not what you first posted... and there is no need for the snark.

 

[midwest mama]

UKGuy when you put it like that I am at a great loss how one yet alone two parents would be capable of not calling for help if their child was in the shape JonBenet was in. Obviously though it happened.

One thing is sure, both the BPD and FBI believed there was staging plus staging-within-staging. That certainly points to at least one of the adults knowing what happened in that household and I for one am very comfortable in believing the BPD and FBI are more than capable to make that judgement.

Statistically, John Ramsey is the best candidate but personally I still haven't seen or read anything that leads me away from Steve Thomas's viewpoint. I'm on chapter three of Kolar's book so can't say much about that yet.

While reading Kolar's book, think about all the points related to how John Ramsey acted and was involved. Kolar clearly points out the medical information of the kids being squashed, and adds new information about marks on JB's body. But there are also a lot of observations pointed out about John - much more than Patsy.