GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

I am not sure how long it takes for them to enter the dental charting. I would think that means there have to be some natural teeth. Otherwise it usually says "endentulous" for no teeth, or it might say "dentures". We know Carlene had braces so if the UID is her it should have a full set of teeth plus braces. I don't know if she had her wisdom teeth yet, probably not because don't they usually come later? I don't know because I was a weirdo whose wisdom teeth didn't come in til my 30s so I have nothing to go by on that. I wish there was an email or an easier way to contact the FBI person listed for this case. Somebody needs to take a look at this UID and also see why Carlene's DNA doesn't seem to be in CODIS. I don't feel comfortable calling an FBI person because I have never contacted LE by telephone before and have no idea what to say or how to go about it. There is an address, but letter writing seems so outdated.

bbm: I believe you are right about the general timing of wisdom teeth -- usually later than the age Carlene was, I think. I think mine came in my 20s -- but I'm "weird", too, I only had two.

Decided to check Wikipedia, just for a quick reference:

A wisdom tooth, in humans, is any of the usual four third molars. Wisdom teeth usually appear between the ages of 16 and 25.[1] Most adults have four wisdom teeth, but it is possible to have fewer or more, in which case the extras are called supernumerary teeth.
Wisdom tooth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I guess Carlene's could have possibly erupted/been erupting, but I would say most likely not. (Also, erupted or not, hers could possibly have been extracted/surgically removed in preparation for her braces, as sometimes is the case, I think).

And also, just to reiterate (though I hate to) what I mentioned in an earlier post: Perps have been known to remove teeth, etc., for souvenirs or to hinder identification or for whatever other grotesque reasons ... so I would not rely completely on the braces...
 
I don't understand why NAMUS doesn't have the dentals. You know she had been to a dentist and/or orthodontist for the braces. I don't know if the police never asked for her dentals at the time or if they did have them and lost them. It might be impossible to get a copy of them now considering how long it has been.
These are the 2 UIDs I have submitted for Carlene. The one that was a skull only had previously been evaluated by Doe Network and ruled to be very unlikely but nobody ever told me what they based the ruling on. The braces may have been part of the reason because if she was killed the day she disappeared, which is most likely, the braces should have still been on. The other was a long shot that I didn't really expect to be Carlene and they ruled her out for no braces/no chipped tooth, although I felt due to the interval of several years she could have had the braces removed if she lived.
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/231ufga.html
http://doenetwork.org/cases/516ufwa.html

I'm thinking the UID we've been talking about might be a suspected Native American burial, not sure why they can't tell. Maybe there was nothing modern with the remains that survived, such as metal snaps, jewelry, etc? Carlene's braces should have survived along with the watch and POW bracelet and boyfriend's classring, unless the killer took them. I wonder who the POW was who she was wearing the bracelet for? Were they usually the name of someone you know? I was a small child during the last years of Vietnam so I don't even remember the POW bracelets. Would be interesting to know whose name was on it, and to somehow find out if the bracelet ever turned up anywhere again.
 
I have no way of knowing for sure, of course, but it does look to me as if her dentals probably were not requested at the time she went missing.
 
dogperson, so strange that you mentioned the POW bracelet.

One way I can tell that Carlene's case has really gotten under my skin is that there are a lot of little things I keep thinking/wondering about -- and that POW bracelet is sure one of them. Was just thinking about it last night, I keep wondering if "her" POW ever came home.

I turned 13 in 1972. I never had a POW bracelet (now, I did have an ERA bracelet a bit later -- my daughter has it now!) but I had some friends and classmates who did.

As far as I know, most POW bracelets were just issued and you did not know whose name you were going to get. There COULD have been a way to request a special one, I'm not sure -- but no one I knew who had one was wearing the bracelet for someone they knew or were otherwise connected with, IIRC.

ETA: Interesting article, here:

Vietnam War bracelets come full circle


Decades after the war's end, some who wore POW/MIA bracelets are reaching out to learn what happened to 'their' guy.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/nov/04/local/la-me-pow-bracelets-20101104
 
You are right: a lot of people seem to have disappeared from shopping malls. I went on Doe Network one day and just did a search for "mall" and was surprised how many there were.

Carlene's disappearance is one of my pet cases, maybe my top pet case that I would like to see solved. There is practically NO info about her online other than pretty much just the links I posted when I started the thread. I really believe if she hadn't been treated as a runaway by the police, this could have been solved at the time. Her sister said in one of the articles that their dad had to beg the police to fingerprint the car.

Carlene was apparently taken in broad daylight from the mall parking lot that afternoon, and evidently was taken away in her own car because it wasn't at the mall when her family started looking for her but turned up later that night in front of the Krispy Kreme at the mall. Somebody either carjacked her by using a weapon or some sort of force and made her drive them someplace where most likely she was assaulted and murdered, or else somebody she knew made a pretense of needing her to drop them off someplace while intending to assault and kill her. Whoever it was had the nerve to drive the car back to the mall and park it later that night, even though they had to have known her family would be looking for her by that time. He (I'm assuming it was a he) could easily have been spotted while driving or parking the car. (The details about the car remind me of Mary Shotwell Little's case, who was abducted from an Atlanta, GA mall, although I firmly believe Mary's case was a kidnapping and murder for hire.)

I would love to see a cold case unit take another look at this. Maybe, after all these years, somebody would be willing to talk. It may not be too late to prosecute whoever did this, assuming he is still alive. If this was a stranger abduction then I'm wondering how likely it is that he only did this one time. Carlene's abductor may very well be the same person who abducted other young women during the time period.
I have a high level of confidence that this is your guy - James Mitchell "Mike" DeBardeleben. Died in prison in 2011 from complications with pneumonia. This is his M.O. He was an active rapist killer since the early 1960's. As someone else on this post mentioned - he was also responsible for Mary Shotwell Little disappearing in my estimation. Link on his criminal activity is below.

http://murderpedia.org/male.D/d/debardeleben-james.htm
 
I have a high level of confidence that this is your guy - James Mitchell "Mike" DeBardeleben. Died in prison in 2011 from complications with pneumonia. This is his M.O. He was an active rapist killer since the early 1960's. As someone else on this post mentioned - he was also responsible for Mary Shotwell Little disappearing in my estimation. Link on his criminal activity is below.

http://murderpedia.org/male.D/d/debardeleben-james.htm

Debardeleben looks good to me too for this abduction. Yesterday on Charley project I saw a missing girl who was originally a suspected victim of his, then later ruled out, but her profile also mentioned another girl they were pretty sure he did abduct. I clicked on her profile too but right now for the life of me I can't remember her name. But they knew he was at a motel in the area where she disappeared because of credit card receipts. If he normally used credit cards when travelling then there is a good chance he could be traced to Macon if he was ever there.

Okay, I'm thinking the FBI contact on Carlene's case might be able to get hold of those records. I know some of that mess was all sealed, about the counterfeiting and so forth, but you would think the file about his credit card use would be less of a problem to get. Also wasn't he a suspect in those 3 girls who disappeared from the mall in Texas near Christmas? I can't think of their names today either, I have obviously been too busy today and don't have my thinking cap on, but he was living in Texas at the time of their disappearance.

I had not thought of him in regard to Mary Shotwell Little but that is a good point too. I know her co-worker was later killed but her body was actually found and although it is coincidental that two women from the same bank were abducted and/or killed, the two may not actually have been related.
 
Yes, I've also said that among "big" names, DeBardeleben comes to my mind.

A few things have made me back off him a bit as a theory, BUT I have not ruled him out, for sure.

Most of what I am about to say is based on reading Michaud's Lethal Shadow/Beyond Cruel account -- I think it is the only book-length account of DeBardeleben...? (And dogperson -- did you ever get your copy?) But I don't have the book right at my side, so this is from recall -- but remember, I read it specifically with Carlene's case in mind:

So, some things to consider, when thinking about him and Carlene's case:


(1) Right around the time of Carlene's disappearance, DeB had just opened a shop in New York, called The Naked Eye, I believe. It was basically a place where you could go in and photograph nude models...and maybe other activities, who knows. It did not succeed and did not last beyond a few months, IIRC, but he apparently was pretty busy with it at the time Carlene disappeared. Not to say he could not have been on the road at times and down to GA -- but this time window is really questionable to me now.

(2) DeB had been apprehended once for counterfeiting (I'm not real clear on the details from memory) and his equipment confiscated, etc. It looks like he did not get another operation set up and begin his infamous "mall passing" until around, I think, 1976*. Once again, this does not mean he was not traveling, but -- it makes the mall angle a little less intriguing, to me. *EDITED LATER TO SAY: Whoops, I should have checked those dates and not relied on memory -- so glad my editing time window is still open! It was IN 1976 that DeB was first caught counterfeiting (passing phony $100s) -- served some time, I guess -- then I think it was around 1979 that he was back out and set up to print again, this time specializing in $20s, and embarked on his "mall-passing". So -- I don't know if his first counterfeiting involved passing his "goods" at malls, as the better-known one did -- possibly!

(3)DeB was never tried for murder, though he was firmly linked, IMO, to at least two (and likely more). The two murders were of real estate agents and, IIRC, although the bodies were posed in positions with strong sexual overtones, there was no evidence of actual sexual assault. Also, he did not really attempt to conceal these bodies. It baffles me that Carlene has never been found so, if he was following this particular pattern, he does not seem as likely a suspect...but read on.

(4)DeB is perhaps better known (since there were likely many more instances and since there were convictions) for abduction and sexual assault. Interestingly, though, he apparently freed a good number of these victims.

HOWEVER -- back more to things that do mesh with Carlene's disappearance:

(1) Real estate agents -- There was for a long time a real estate office at Westgate. I've said before, DeB could have been trying to work one of his real-estate agent abductions, something went wrong, and he took Carlene instead.

(2) DeB was known to impersonate LE in his abductions (though it does seem that many of these occurred at night). He had lights rigged on his vehicle, etc. I think Carlene, young as she was and as a fairly new driver, sadly might have been very vulnerable to such a ruse.

(3) Some of DeB's offenses did involve abducting victims in their own vehicles.

(4)Though DeB did sometimes sexually assault and release, there is evidence, apparently, that he sometimes assaulted and then killed. He left behind many photos of women being held and assaulted by him. The book relates how the investigators surmised that, in photographs where he had edited himself out in the developing, he let the victims go; in ones in which parts of him were visible, they think he may have killed the victim. (Odd, to me -- but I think he did threaten victims, ones that he released, with showing the photos, so maybe that's why...maybe he was serious and halfway intended to follow through?) Investigators found his negatives, too, though, so they were able to reprint the photos where he'd been edited out and match his "parts" to what appeared in the reprinted photos.

A few more thoughts:

DeB was a super-organized offender and kept "records" of all kinds: journals, receipts, photos, audiotapes, and on and on.

After he was caught and these things sorted, IF he was investigated for a particular incident, chances were high, IMO, that investigators likely would be able to at least ascertain whether he may have been in a particular area at a particular time. I wonder if a lot of cases may not have been "quietly closed" after finding such evidence. (I believe probably there were cases of assault, etc., in which the time limitation for prosecuting may already have passed by the time...?)

What I REALLY wish: With his horrible photos: If only they could make public the photos of the unidentified women -- through discreet editing, of course -- sort of like has been done with Alcala's photos. (And maybe also photos of any likely-recognizable "souvenirs" -- clothing, jewelry, etc.)
 
Not really related to my post just above, but something that has crossed my mind and I wanted to note before I forget again:

With it being the beginning of the summer and Carlene being 16 and licensed to drive, I wonder whether she may have been looking around for a summer job? Was just thinking, that could have opened up possibilities for a ruse by someone with evil intentions.
 
I have a high level of confidence that this is your guy - James Mitchell "Mike" DeBardeleben. Died in prison in 2011 from complications with pneumonia. This is his M.O. He was an active rapist killer since the early 1960's. As someone else on this post mentioned - he was also responsible for Mary Shotwell Little disappearing in my estimation. Link on his criminal activity is below.

http://murderpedia.org/male.D/d/debardeleben-james.htm

I thanked your post, tryingtofigureitout ... but then I got busy posting away and FORGOT that I also meant to say (seeing your join date and that this was your first post):

:welcome4:



Welcome to Websleuths...and to Carlene's thread!
 
I see that the link I posted a few days ago to Carlene's Doe Network page does not work -- looks like I got something extra on the end of it by mistake, sorry folks! I usually check my links to make sure they're working, but I must not have done that on that one.

Here's the correct Doe Network link:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2837dfga.html
 
I just started reading the Debardeleben book yesterday and he puzzles me, the way he took some women and drove them around for hours then set them free after sexual assaults, and then other times he killed without a sexual assault. You would think he would have done the sexual assault every time unless something prevented him from it. And why did he kill sometimes and sometimes not?
The thing about him driving the women around for so long made me think of how Carlene's car was missing for at least 8 hours but obviously she wasn't let go. Knowles is still a good suspect but I have been unable to find out where he was in June 1972.
I wondered if someone watched her in the mall and then maybe followed her outside. It could just be some random dude passing through the area who took a chance at the opportunity or maybe he was there trolling for a victim. Summer afternoons would be a good time to find teen girls or young housewives out shopping, if he was looking to abduct someone. He could have no real connection to Macon at all.
I still wish we knew more about the police finding nothing of significance about the car. Was there a complete lack of fingerprints or only fingerprints belonging to the family? If there were none at all then the perp had to have wiped the car down completely, which would take a bit of time. It also takes some thought and doesn't sound to me like a young teen boy who would likely panic after he abducted and killed someone. Plus, if the man were from the local area, I would expect him to commit this crime more than once.
I don't know whether finding out who took Carlene would ever be of help in finding any remains, especially if her abductor is dead, but you never know.
 
Just wanna say, this thread really breaks my heart. Maybe it's b/c I work in a high school, so I'm always seeing the Carlene's of the world (pretty, smart, artistic, musical).

I have a feeling she was abducted by a serial killer or random killer, not by someone she knew.

I think she was at the mall to waste some time on a hot summer day until she had to pick up her sister. She thought it would be cute to leave a note on her boyfriend's car. Maybe her killer was looking for possible victims, saw Carlene leave a note, read it, and decided she would be the perfect victim. He was probably experienced and stealthily followed her to the arcade. Again, saw her hanging out with boys at the arcade, and something about her innocence and friendliness made her more attractive to him. And she was dressed like the "girl next door" of the time- jeans, Mickey Mouse watch, POW bracelet, class ring. (I have a feeling the killer observed all these things- how I'm not really sure.)
 
I am not sure how long it takes for them to enter the dental charting. I would think that means there have to be some natural teeth. Otherwise it usually says "endentulous" for no teeth, or it might say "dentures". We know Carlene had braces so if the UID is her it should have a full set of teeth plus braces. I don't know if she had her wisdom teeth yet, probably not because don't they usually come later? I don't know because I was a weirdo whose wisdom teeth didn't come in til my 30s so I have nothing to go by on that. I wish there was an email or an easier way to contact the FBI person listed for this case. Somebody needs to take a look at this UID and also see why Carlene's DNA doesn't seem to be in CODIS. I don't feel comfortable calling an FBI person because I have never contacted LE by telephone before and have no idea what to say or how to go about it. There is an address, but letter writing seems so outdated.

bbm: dogperson, FWIW, one thing I noted from the map (linked below) of FBI satellite agencies/resident agencies in Georgia is that the Macon office includes Jasper Co. (where the UID was found) in its territory -- that might be a good thing.

http://www.fbi.gov/atlanta/contact-us/territory-jurisdiction
 
Just wanting to note that, for the Macon Police Department contact info, Charley Project and DOE Network both have the wrong area code. They have "912" but it was changed several years ago to 478.

NAMUS has the correct area code, 478.
 
Just wanna say, this thread really breaks my heart. Maybe it's b/c I work in a high school, so I'm always seeing the Carlene's of the world (pretty, smart, artistic, musical).

I have a feeling she was abducted by a serial killer or random killer, not by someone she knew.

I think she was at the mall to waste some time on a hot summer day until she had to pick up her sister. She thought it would be cute to leave a note on her boyfriend's car. Maybe her killer was looking for possible victims, saw Carlene leave a note, read it, and decided she would be the perfect victim. He was probably experienced and stealthily followed her to the arcade. Again, saw her hanging out with boys at the arcade, and something about her innocence and friendliness made her more attractive to him. And she was dressed like the "girl next door" of the time- jeans, Mickey Mouse watch, POW bracelet, class ring. (I have a feeling the killer observed all these things- how I'm not really sure.)

bbm: I've thought about the possibility that someone may have observed her leaving the note, too. Depending on what she wrote and how she signed it, that someone might have strolled over and read it and learned the boyfriend's and/or Carlene's name(s) -- could have used that info for some kind of ruse to abduct her.
 
Looks like Joe Kovac Jr. -- the same The Telegraph/macon.com reporter who wrote the two-part look-back article on Carlene's disappearance that is linked at the beginning of this thread -- is doing a serial piece on how Macon is reflected along the 5-plus miles of Pio Nono Avenue. Here's the first installment:

Macon in the mirror: Reflecting on ourselves, our city

Pio Nono Avenue is a backbone of modern Macon. From Seven Bridges to Stanislaus, it stretches from a southside side swamp to some of midtown’s most treasured estates. Though its Italian name gets mangled by locals and visitors alike, the road is a reflection of who we are and how we live....

...The Pio Nono corridor offers a cross section of our city. It is an evolving -- some would suggest regressing -- stretch of town, one that many Middle Georgians of this and recent generations may now bypass or avoid. ...
read more at: http://www.macon.com/2013/09/07/2648051/civic-pride-found-in-seediest.html

Pio Nono Avenue, of course, is a Macon street name familiar to all following Carlene's thread. It just seemed right to link the article here, for that reason. Looks as if it will be a wide-ranging piece and, while I don't know that any mention will be made of Carlene's disappearance so many years ago, it would not entirely surprise me.

ETA: Found an interesting (and pertinent) nugget already: According to Joe, the Krispy Kreme was "new" in 1972! I did not know that!

...We discussed the demise of the Westgate shopping center, once a hive of clothes-buying and moviegoing. Now the Wal-Mart and, later, the Home Depot that tried to fill the void when the mall went belly up in the late ’80s are gone themselves. As is the multiplex theater, once a fixture at the corner of Pio Nono and Eisenhower. These days there isn’t a first-run movie house inside the city limits. The Krispy Kreme that sprouted across Pio Nono from the mall in 1972, however, still lures hot-doughnut-seeking customers from all corners of town....
 
Looks like Joe Kovac Jr. -- the same The Telegraph/macon.com reporter who wrote the two-part look-back article on Carlene's disappearance that is linked at the beginning of this thread -- is doing a serial piece on how Macon is reflected along the 5-plus miles of Pio Nono Avenue. Here's the first installment:

read more at: http://www.macon.com/2013/09/07/2648051/civic-pride-found-in-seediest.html

Pio Nono Avenue, of course, is a Macon street name familiar to all following Carlene's thread. It just seemed right to link the article here, for that reason. Looks as if it will be a wide-ranging piece and, while I don't know that any mention will be made of Carlene's disappearance so many years ago, it would not entirely surprise me.

ETA: Found an interesting (and pertinent) nugget already: According to Joe, the Krispy Kreme was "new" in 1972! I did not know that!

Hi Backwoods, Didnt' know that either about the old Krispy Kreme being new in 1972. We used to go there. I do remember never really feeling safe in Macon, can't say why really, just a feeling I had, I was pretty young then, but in 1980 April 1, my car window was shattered while I was at the Westgate Cinemas, thugs stole my avon bag, no money, just samples, but I remember the cops kind of being sarcastic and grinning, and said, "oh we'll call you if we find an avon bag on the side of the road",

So I do hope they didnt' have this attitude with missing persons. What makes one city so much worse than others do we think? Is it the cops? You know, like bad parenting?

I dont' remember alot of kidnappings or otherwise but something about Macon was creepy to me. haha

I dont remember this case, but I think that area surrounding Westgate Mall was always shady, maybe it was near or a little later than 72 that it became so.

Whoever kidnapped her and killed her is probalby dead, if she was 16, he'd be atleast 25 or 30 when this happened I'd guess so 70 or older now

Are there other cases that could be related ? what was the percentage or number of sex offenders nearby back then? Probably not even known. They were probably everywhere and never discovered or reported back then
 
Hi Backwoods, Didnt' know that either about the old Krispy Kreme being new in 1972. We used to go there. I do remember never really feeling safe in Macon, can't say why really, just a feeling I had, I was pretty young then, but in 1980 April 1, my car window was shattered while I was at the Westgate Cinemas, thugs stole my avon bag, no money, just samples, but I remember the cops kind of being sarcastic and grinning, and said, "oh we'll call you if we find an avon bag on the side of the road",

So I do hope they didnt' have this attitude with missing persons. What makes one city so much worse than others do we think? Is it the cops? You know, like bad parenting?

I dont' remember alot of kidnappings or otherwise but something about Macon was creepy to me. haha

I dont remember this case, but I think that area surrounding Westgate Mall was always shady, maybe it was near or a little later than 72 that it became so.

Whoever kidnapped her and killed her is probalby dead, if she was 16, he'd be atleast 25 or 30 when this happened I'd guess so 70 or older now

Are there other cases that could be related ? what was the percentage or number of sex offenders nearby back then? Probably not even known. They were probably everywhere and never discovered or reported back then

tomkat -- hi! Great to see you on this thread. You seem to know Macon really well -- I know some things, as an "almost-sorta-local", but really I'm an outlier -- so you probably can really help. I hope you'll put this thread on your list.

It seems (to me) as if it wasn't just Macon but pretty much everywhere that missing teenagers weren't taken as seriously back then. And I am not saying that MPD brushed Carlene's case off -- there are hints of that, yes, but after so long, no way for us, who were not involved at the time, to really know how much thought/effort went into it.

You know, the early 1970s was a strange time, in some ways, a lot of cultural/social change going on. There WERE kids "dropping out", running away -- and not always the kids it was "expected" of. Not saying I think this is what happened with Carlene, not at all -- but I think "the times", the burgeoning drug culture, and all that probably did contribute to a sometimes lax LE attitude when a young person was reported missing.

Remember this -- the Byron Pop Festival in 1970?

Southern-fried Woodstock: Byron Pop Festival memories vivid after 40 years

40 years later, memories of concert still vivid By CHRIS HORNE - Telegraph correspondent - Reprinted from The Telegraph article of 7/4/2010
http://www.gunncoldcase.com/SouthernFriedWoodstock.html

(The link is to a blog, but the article reprinted there is MSM.)



Atlanta International Pop Festival (1970) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was a little young for that scene, but I know that for some middle Georgia folks a few years older than me, that was an eye-opener and, for some, a life-changer. I'm sure area LE got an eye full of, well, a lot of stuff, not all bad, for sure, but lots DIFFERENT springing up among area teens back in the late '60s and early '70s. Maybe it influenced how they evaluated situations...

ETA: ...and that stinks, about your car window and your Avon bag!



 

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