GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

[tryingtofigureitout]

I just started reading the Debardeleben book yesterday and he puzzles me, the way he took some women and drove them around for hours then set them free after sexual assaults, and then other times he killed without a sexual assault. You would think he would have done the sexual assault every time unless something prevented him from it. And why did he kill sometimes and sometimes not?
The thing about him driving the women around for so long made me think of how Carlene's car was missing for at least 8 hours but obviously she wasn't let go. Knowles is still a good suspect but I have been unable to find out where he was in June 1972.
I wondered if someone watched her in the mall and then maybe followed her outside. It could just be some random dude passing through the area who took a chance at the opportunity or maybe he was there trolling for a victim. Summer afternoons would be a good time to find teen girls or young housewives out shopping, if he was looking to abduct someone. He could have no real connection to Macon at all.
I still wish we knew more about the police finding nothing of significance about the car. Was there a complete lack of fingerprints or only fingerprints belonging to the family? If there were none at all then the perp had to have wiped the car down completely, which would take a bit of time. It also takes some thought and doesn't sound to me like a young teen boy who would likely panic after he abducted and killed someone. Plus, if the man were from the local area, I would expect him to commit this crime more than once.
I don't know whether finding out who took Carlene would ever be of help in finding any remains, especially if her abductor is dead, but you never know.

They way the book is written it leaves a lot of blank holes. The majority of JMD's criminal career banked on police not communicating between jurisdictions and their inability to deal with abductions as a whole. He was methodical, cunning, pre planned and momentarily charming or authoritative. He impersonated police officers, security guards and was an avid user of disguises. He was married 5 times and his wives all testify to this. He was a Counterfeiter and thrived on passing his funny money at malls and shopping centers like this one. He was responsible for the Lyon Sisters in Wheaton, MD in 1975 going missing as well as The Missing Trio in Ft. Worth, TX (both unproven so far, but I am certain) as well as countless others. In this case, the most useful thing would be to establish that he was in the area at the time. BTW - he was known to leave notes on windshields during bank jobs that his wives helped him with. I would like to know what the note said. (Note the Missing Trio note that they chose to run away to Dallas. That was his slight of hand in that case).

As far as he was concerned the bigger noise it made in the community the better. The driving around and misdirection were part of his game. He often used safe houses and he may have done so here. It is thought he had one in NC. About a 2 hour drive from Macon if I have my calculations correct. He used handcuffs and drugs to subdue his victims after he gained their momentary trust.

There is a treasure trove of evidence at the Secret Service Headquarters that might have some clues. He was arrested by them on counterfeiting charges. He took notes and had scripts and tape recorded his crimes. He also took pictures.
Because he was arrested and incarcerated in 1976 - late 1977 the evidence in this case may have been lost. The first time they had him, the Secret Service dropped the ball. They chose to ignore the evidence of forced kidnapping and *advertiser censored* they found when they searched his apartment. If they can find a safe house where he took her, my guess is you will find some remains there.

If he included himself in the *advertiser censored* pictures with the victims he killed them. If he cut out/covered his face, they likely lived. That is about as close as I can come to a way that he decided what to do at the end of his sick episodes.

 

[Backwoods]

They way the book is written it leaves a lot of blank holes. The majority of JMD's criminal career banked on police not communicating between jurisdictions and their inability to deal with abductions as a whole. He was methodical, cunning, pre planned and momentarily charming or authoritative. He impersonated police officers, security guards and was an avid user of disguises. He was married 5 times and his wives all testify to this. He was a Counterfeiter and thrived on passing his funny money at malls and shopping centers like this one. He was responsible for the Lyon Sisters in Wheaton, MD in 1975 going missing as well as The Missing Trio in Ft. Worth, TX (both unproven so far, but I am certain) as well as countless others. In this case, the most useful thing would be to establish that he was in the area at the time. BTW - he was known to leave notes on windshields during bank jobs that his wives helped him with. I would like to know what the note said. (Note the Missing Trio note that they chose to run away to Dallas. That was his slight of hand in that case).

As far as he was concerned the bigger noise it made in the community the better. The driving around and misdirection were part of his game. He often used safe houses and he may have done so here. It is thought he had one in NC. About a 2 hour drive from Macon if I have my calculations correct. He used handcuffs and drugs to subdue his victims after he gained their momentary trust.

There is a treasure trove of evidence at the Secret Service Headquarters that might have some clues. He was arrested by them on counterfeiting charges. He took notes and had scripts and tape recorded his crimes. He also took pictures.
Because he was arrested and incarcerated in 1976 - late 1977 the evidence in this case may have been lost. The first time they had him, the Secret Service dropped the ball. They chose to ignore the evidence of forced kidnapping and *advertiser censored* they found when they searched his apartment. If they can find a safe house where he took her, my guess is you will find some remains there.

If he included himself in the *advertiser censored* pictures with the victims he killed them. If he cut out/covered his face, they likely lived. That is about as close as I can come to a way that he decided what to do at the end of his sick episodes.

Yes, other than the possibilities about the Lyons sisters and the Fort Worth Trio, we know all this and have discussed much of it in considering him.

The question is -- how to get proof from that treasure trove of SS evidence whether or not he was in the area at the right time.

We don't necessarily know the whole content of the note left on the boyfriend's car, but it has been reported that it basically said "hi" and "see you tonight".

 

[Backwoods]

Third installment in The Telegraph's series by Joe Kovac Jr. about Pio Nono Avenue life:

Macon in the mirror: Reflecting on ourselves, our city -- PART III

http://www.macon.com/2013/09/09/2654839/macon-in-the-mirror-reflecting.html


ETA: puzzleme, I noticed that the cutline under one of the photos in this installment says that the owner of a barbershop pictured has been "cutting hair in the shop since 1972, back when the side streets off of Pio Nono were still dirt" -- so there's an answer to one of your earlier questions.

 

[dogperson]

Third installment in The Telegraph's series by Joe Kovac Jr. about Pio Nono Avenue life:



http://www.macon.com/2013/09/09/2654839/macon-in-the-mirror-reflecting.html


ETA: puzzleme, I noticed that the cutline under one of the photos in this installment says that the owner of a barbershop pictured has been "cutting hair in the shop since 1972, back when the side streets off of Pio Nono were still dirt" -- so there's an answer to one of your earlier questions.

This info is good to know because if I were abducting someone I wouldn't want to be driving down the main roads but would probably take off down the closest dirt or gravel road. He must have at least known the area well enough to know a place that would be private. One of the news articles I believe mentioned the car having a fine layer of red dust, so that would fit in with driving down a dirt road. We have a lot of clay here in TN too, only it's the orange kind, and it gets all over your car if you take a dirt road in the summer. Then again, Debardeleben sometimes made women get down into the floorboards under a blanket while he drove, so I suppose you would hide if a man with a gun told you to.

 

[tryingtofigureitout]

i wonder if Carlene's disappearance is any way related to any of the other shopping center abductions that took place in the 70s. it's so sad and disturbing that a human being can go missing and never be found. where are all these missing people?

This is the work of James Debardeleben. He is the Mall Passer (Counterfeit Name given to him by the Secret Service because he passed phony money at malls). This was one of his early works. The shame of all is this. When he was arrested in 1976 for passing a phony $100 in a mall in Montgomery County, MD The Secret Service (Counterfeit Cops) stumbled upon a treasure of evidence of kidnapping, *advertiser censored* of kidnapped victims and personal items from victims. They did nothing with it. It likely was lost/discarded somewhere along the way, but evidence of her abduction is with that material somewhere.

To him, the bigger the crime (that is the more noise the community made about a missing person) the better. He created small scenes. He did the Missing Trio in Fort Worth and the Lyon Sisters in Wheaton, MD.

He left notes on car windows, he followed girls and used a ruse to gain their attention and trust for just a moment. (later impersonated cops). He was there that day. And if there is a partial print in that car they can match it. I believe there was a partial print lifted. He loved slight of hand and misdirection. He moved the car and moved it back.

He died in prison. He never talked. The material that has been written about this guy only scratches the surface of what he did to women and girls.

Does anyone know if there was a fingerprint lifted from the car?

 

[Backwoods]

This is the work of James Debardeleben. He is the Mall Passer (Counterfeit Name given to him by the Secret Service because he passed phony money at malls). This was one of his early works. The shame of all is this. When he was arrested in 1976 for passing a phony $100 in a mall in Montgomery County, MD The Secret Service (Counterfeit Cops) stumbled upon a treasure of evidence of kidnapping, *advertiser censored* of kidnapped victims and personal items from victims. They did nothing with it. It likely was lost/discarded somewhere along the way, but evidence of her abduction is with that material somewhere.

To him, the bigger the crime (that is the more noise the community made about a missing person) the better. He created small scenes. He did the Missing Trio in Fort Worth and the Lyon Sisters in Wheaton, MD.

He left notes on car windows, he followed girls and used a ruse to gain their attention and trust for just a moment. (later impersonated cops). He was there that day. And if there is a partial print in that car they can match it. I believe there was a partial print lifted. He loved slight of hand and misdirection. He moved the car and moved it back.

He died in prison. He never talked. The material that has been written about this guy only scratches the surface of what he did to women and girls.

Does anyone know if there was a fingerprint lifted from the car?

bbm: From the sources we have looked at here, we do not know whether any non-family, etc., prints were found. It has been reported that LE fingerprinted the car only at the family's insistence. It apparently led nowhere -- but we do not know any details about what was or was not found in the fingerprinting.

 

[Backwoods]

This info is good to know because if I were abducting someone I wouldn't want to be driving down the main roads but would probably take off down the closest dirt or gravel road. He must have at least known the area well enough to know a place that would be private. One of the news articles I believe mentioned the car having a fine layer of red dust, so that would fit in with driving down a dirt road. We have a lot of clay here in TN too, only it's the orange kind, and it gets all over your car if you take a dirt road in the summer. Then again, Debardeleben sometimes made women get down into the floorboards under a blanket while he drove, so I suppose you would hide if a man with a gun told you to.

Everyone keep in mind, too, that Westgate was/is very close to Interstate 75 as well. One of those side streets leading off Pio Nono to the east probably could have taken Carlene and her abductor very quickly and unobtrusively to the entrance ramp.

bbm: I agree that Carlene likely would have been greatly intimidated by a gun -- she probably had never heard the maxim that if someone pulls a gun to force you to leave with him from a populated spot, you are usually better off to resist, because IF he is willing to USE the gun there, he will be even more apt to use it when you reach a more remote location. Even if she did know this -- knowing is one thing, following through is quite another, with a gun pointed at you.

Then again -- there are those reports about screams. Maybe Carlene did try to resist.

dogperson, DeB did sometimes force the abductees into the floorboard or backseat, as you say -- and I also recall the account of at least one incident where he more or less hid in the backseat himself, making the abductee drive until they reached a "safer for him" spot. He also could have done that with Carlene and no one would have seen/reported seeing her in the car with another person.

 

[Backwoods]

Yes, I've also said that among "big" names, DeBardeleben comes to my mind.

A few things have made me back off him a bit as a theory, BUT I have not ruled him out, for sure.

Most of what I am about to say is based on reading Michaud's Lethal Shadow/Beyond Cruel account -- I think it is the only book-length account of DeBardeleben...? (And dogperson -- did you ever get your copy?) But I don't have the book right at my side, so this is from recall -- but remember, I read it specifically with Carlene's case in mind:

So, some things to consider, when thinking about him and Carlene's case:

(1) Right around the time of Carlene's disappearance, DeB had just opened a shop in New York, called The Naked Eye, I believe. It was basically a place where you could go in and photograph nude models...and maybe other activities, who knows. It did not succeed and did not last beyond a few months, IIRC, but he apparently was pretty busy with it at the time Carlene disappeared. Not to say he could not have been on the road at times and down to GA -- but this time window is really questionable to me now.

(2) DeB had been apprehended once for counterfeiting (I'm not real clear on the details from memory) and his equipment confiscated, etc. It looks like he did not get another operation set up and begin his infamous "mall passing" until around, I think, 1976*. Once again, this does not mean he was not traveling, but -- it makes the mall angle a little less intriguing, to me. *EDITED LATER TO SAY: Whoops, I should have checked those dates and not relied on memory -- so glad my editing time window is still open! It was IN 1976 that DeB was first caught counterfeiting (passing phony $100s) -- served some time, I guess -- then I think it was around 1979 that he was back out and set up to print again, this time specializing in $20s, and embarked on his "mall-passing". So -- I don't know if his first counterfeiting involved passing his "goods" at malls, as the better-known one did -- possibly!

(3)DeB was never tried for murder, though he was firmly linked, IMO, to at least two (and likely more). The two murders were of real estate agents and, IIRC, although the bodies were posed in positions with strong sexual overtones, there was no evidence of actual sexual assault. Also, he did not really attempt to conceal these bodies. It baffles me that Carlene has never been found so, if he was following this particular pattern, he does not seem as likely a suspect...but read on.

(4)DeB is perhaps better known (since there were likely many more instances and since there were convictions) for abduction and sexual assault. Interestingly, though, he apparently freed a good number of these victims.

HOWEVER -- back more to things that do mesh with Carlene's disappearance:

(1) Real estate agents -- There was for a long time a real estate office at Westgate. I've said before, DeB could have been trying to work one of his real-estate agent abductions, something went wrong, and he took Carlene instead.

(2) DeB was known to impersonate LE in his abductions (though it does seem that many of these occurred at night). He had lights rigged on his vehicle, etc. I think Carlene, young as she was and as a fairly new driver, sadly might have been very vulnerable to such a ruse.

(3) Some of DeB's offenses did involve abducting victims in their own vehicles.

(4)Though DeB did sometimes sexually assault and release, there is evidence, apparently, that he sometimes assaulted and then killed. He left behind many photos of women being held and assaulted by him. The book relates how the investigators surmised that, in photographs where he had edited himself out in the developing, he let the victims go; in ones in which parts of him were visible, they think he may have killed the victim. (Odd, to me -- but I think he did threaten victims, ones that he released, with showing the photos, so maybe that's why...maybe he was serious and halfway intended to follow through?) Investigators found his negatives, too, though, so they were able to reprint the photos where he'd been edited out and match his "parts" to what appeared in the reprinted photos.

A few more thoughts:

DeB was a super-organized offender and kept "records" of all kinds: journals, receipts, photos, audiotapes, and on and on.

After he was caught and these things sorted, IF he was investigated for a particular incident, chances were high, IMO, that investigators likely would be able to at least ascertain whether he may have been in a particular area at a particular time. I wonder if a lot of cases may not have been "quietly closed" after finding such evidence. (I believe probably there were cases of assault, etc., in which the time limitation for prosecuting may already have passed by the time...?)

What I REALLY wish: With his horrible photos: If only they could make public the photos of the unidentified women -- through discreet editing, of course -- sort of like has been done with Alcala's photos. (And maybe also photos of any likely-recognizable "souvenirs" -- clothing, jewelry, etc.)

Have to quote myself here because I want to correct a rather bad error I made in the post, the part bolded in red: The Naked Eye was in Washington, DC ... not New York.

Don't know why I typed New York -- I think I was mixing my cases. Sorry.

 

[dogperson]

Have to quote myself here because I want to correct a rather bad error I made in the post, the part bolded in red: The Naked Eye was in Washington, DC ... not New York.

Don't know why I typed New York -- I think I was mixing my cases. Sorry.

That's okay about the New York thing. I saw in the book that it was Washington DC so that actually would make it easier for him to travel to Macon if he wanted to, much less distance.

Being so close to I75 is why I submitted that GA "skull only" UID that I posted upthread as a possible match but for some reason it was rejected by Doe Network as being unlikely, maybe because it was lacking braces? It was found in 1973 but honestly it looks like none of the UIDs found in the 70s were even considered by LE back then as possible matches for Carlene. I think they just forgot her. The girl who Knowles killed, when her remains were first found you would think they might have looked at Carlene, but no. Correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but didn't a lot of police depts purge missing teens from their files after they would have reached the age of 18? At least, in cases where LE wasn't pursuing any murder charges?

 

[Backwoods]

Fourth installment in the series about Pio Nono Avenue by Joe Kovac Jr. for Macon's The Telegraph/macon.com:

Macon in the mirror: Reflecting on ourselves, our city -- PART IV

http://www.macon.com/2013/09/10/2656571/macon-in-the-mirror-reflecting.html

 

[Backwoods]

Also I keep thinking about serial killer Gerard Schaefer. Do we know whether he killed outside of the state of Florida? This doesn't exactly jive with his M.O. in some ways, but he was active during the 70s I believe & I think he claimed to have killed girls in other states.

<respectfully snipped>

That's okay about the New York thing. I saw in the book that it was Washington DC so that actually would make it easier to travel to Macon if he wanted to, much less distance.

Being so close to I75 is why I submitted that GA "skull only" UID that I posted upthread as a possible match but for some reason it was rejected by Doe Network as being unlikely, maybe because it was lacking braces? It was found in 1973 but honestly it looks like none of the UIDs found in the 70s were even considered by LE back then as possible matches for Carlene. I think they just forgot her. The girl who Knowles killed, when her remains were first found you would think they might have looked at Carlene, but no. Correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but didn't a lot of police depts purge missing teens from their files after they would have reached the age of 18? At least, in cases where LE wasn't pursuing any murder charges?

I snipped a little part of an older post of yours here, too, because you had mentioned Schaefer. I have learned a bit more about him recently when I read through Still_Seeking_Answers' thread about his/her sister, Deborah Sue Lowe, suspected to be one of his victims. (The thread is in Serial Killers -- and well worth reading, very moving.)

I knew only a bit about him before -- just enough to know I wasn't eager at the time to know much more about him and his horrendous cruelties. I believe, in the thread I just mentioned, it was said that the skull-only UID you mentioned (I think it is in Henry Co., GA, IIRC) had been submitted as a possible match for Deborah Sue Lowe, as well. As I'm sure you know, Schaefer apparently beheaded some of his victims and disposed of bodies and heads separately (uggh -- sorry).

I think you are right, that he is suspected by some to have had some victims in states other than Florida -- but it is all kinda shrouded in mystery. Sure makes sense to me -- he worked only brief stints in LE in Florida; I guess it's POSSIBLE that he only killed while wielding the "power" that his badge and cruiser gave him, but somehow ... I doubt it.

I remember, when I was reading the thread about Deborah, reading in there or on a link that there was a gap between his first LE stint and the second, and IIRC, when I checked, the date of Carlene's disappearance fell into that gap. Also, he spent his earliest years in Atlanta, I believe -- was from Georgia originally. So I don't find it too much of a stretch to think he might have come back from time to time.

I also agree with you, though, that in most ways Carlene's disappearance would seem to depart from his MO. Although -- if he didn't have a police car to work with, maybe he just had a fake badge and a good spiel and "made do". Remember Carol DaRonch, the victim who escaped Ted Bundy?

...Of all of his numerous young, beautiful victims only one managed to escape, Carol DaRonch. In November 1974 Bundy approached the 18-year-old DaRonch. He presented himself as a police officer and told DaRonch that her car had been broken into...

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/photogallery/i-survived-a-murderer.html?curPhoto=3

Maybe something like that... Poor Carlene, out for the first time alone in the family car... that might have worked.

I wonder if they have some clue, from the condition, etc., that the Henry County skull was actually placed separately from a body or if it was likely only separated from other remains after time, by water, animals, etc. Isn't this the UID you said was said to have a "low probability" of matching Carlene? If so -- is that how "no match" is usually said, or is it a little less emphatic? (Since I have no experience.) Could have been no sign of braces, you're right -- or maybe no chipped front tooth.

I think you may be right, that Carlene was more or less forgotten about and not considered by many when remains were discovered. I don't know about the purging of records you mention, but it wouldn't surprise me... I hope not, though. Let's see, wasn't it in 1974 that her family received the LE letter asking for an update on whether she had returned home ...? It does sounds as if they hadn't been super-focused on her case -- and that would have been the year she would have turned 18.

It may be possible that when Ima Jean Sanders' (the 1974 Knowles victim you mention) remains were found in 1976, they were able somehow to determine that the bones were not from as far back as 1972 (Carlene) -- but then again, it COULD have been Carlene, she could have been held for a time and then killed -- so, I'm with you, why wouldn't they check? Oh, well -- maybe they did, and we just don't know about it. It wasn't her.

Debardeleben, Knowles, Schaefer -- the maddening thing is that all THREE of these guys left behind records of some kind (photos, notes, receipts, audio tapes, writings) that MIGHT indicate a link to Carlene, but we have no way to access them. ullhair:

I hate to think of Carlene falling victim to ANY of those guys -- somehow Debardeleben and Schaefer particularly, sadists that they were. Knowles was plenty bad and brutal, too, just maybe a little --quicker? And I know it's kind of a cliche to look at serial killers in a case like this -- it could have well been a local person, I guess -- but you have to start somewhere.

 

[Backwoods]

Regarding the Schaefer timeline as possibly relating to Carlene:

Have a look at this post from the Deborah Sue Lowe thread I mentioned earlier (Debbie also disappeared in 1972), in which WS Moderator bessie put together a Schaefer timeline:


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL FL - Gerard Schaefer..Where is my sister???? Deborah Sue Lowe - 1972


Here's the pertinent part, as far as Carlene is concerned:

03/16/72 - Chief Scott of the WMPD is fed up and ready to fire the new rookie, but Schaefer wins a reprieve.

04/20/72 - Scott reaches the end of his rope, and Schaefer's employment is terminated.

06/30/72 - Schaefer is hired by the Martin County Sheriff's Department

07/23/72 - He is fired and arrested by Martin County Sheriff Richard Crowder. A few days earlier, Schaefer had come across two teenage girls hitchhiking, Trotter and Wells. He drove them to a halfway house and promised to take them to the beach the next day. On July 22, he picked them up and drove them into the swamp at Hutchinson Island where he threatened them and left them tied to a tree with nooses around their necks. He returned the next day to find they had escaped. Then he called the Sheriff and told him what he had done. The girls still wore handcuffs when Sheriff Crowder later found them walking near the forest.

Carlene disappeared from Macon nine days before Schaefer got his second LE job. Who's to say he didn't head up to Georgia during his, er, unemployment?

ETA: In this line of thinking -- maybe we need to look specifically at some FL UIDs? Unlikely, but...

 

[dogperson]

You never know where Schaefer may have driven while he didn't have a job. I was thinking he had some kind of ties to Georgia anyway but I would have to go back and read some more about him.

So 1972 was before Debardeleben began his counterfeiting operation, at least the one the feds found. If he is our guy then I wonder what he was doing at the mall. Trolling for a victim? Buying socks? The book says he had a huge collection of men's socks and that made me think of how Ted Bundy did too. In one book about Ted he said his dream was to be able to wear a new pair of socks every day. Wonder what the deal is with that????

One of the reasons I am thinking of serial killers in this case is it seems if a local guy did this kind of thing once he would do it again. There would be more missing girls from that time period. I have run searches for all the southern states during that time period trying to find any other cases that might be connected to our Georgia one but have had little luck.

The Henry County skull is the one that Doe Network ruled as a low probability. I think this skull has been looked at for several missing women. I think they only have mitochondrial DNA for it so my understanding is they have to have mitochondrial DNA for the potential match person also. Apparently you can't match mitochondrial with nuclear DNA???

 

[Backwoods]

You never know where Schaefer may have driven while he didn't have a job. I was thinking he had some kind of ties to Georgia anyway but I would have to go back and read some more about him.

So 1972 was before Debardeleben began his counterfeiting operation, at least the one the feds found. If he is our guy then I wonder what he was doing at the mall. Trolling for a victim? Buying socks? The book says he had a huge collection of men's socks and that made me think of how Ted Bundy did too. In one book about Ted he said his dream was to be able to wear a new pair of socks every day. Wonder what the deal is with that????

One of the reasons I am thinking of serial killers in this case is it seems if a local guy did this kind of thing once he would do it again. There would be more missing girls from that time period. I have run searches for all the southern states during that time period trying to find any other cases that might be connected to our Georgia one but have had little luck.

The Henry County skull is the one that Doe Network ruled as a low probability. I think this skull has been looked at for several missing women. I think they only have mitochondrial DNA for it so my understanding is they have to have mitochondrial DNA for the potential match person also. Apparently you can't match mitochondrial with nuclear DNA???

Schaefer: Yeah, Schaefer apparently grew up mostly in Atlanta until his early teens -- though he had been born in Wisconsin in 1946. (And, BTW, what is it with 1946? Schaefer, Bundy, Knowles -- all born in 1946!) I did notice from one account of his known and suspected crimes that, in a few cases, the victim's car was found "near" to where she was last seen.... Hmmm.

Debardeleben: Well, I think the feds did the first (1976) counterfeit bust, too, and I think some "odd stuff" was noticed amongst his belongings at that time, too, but it didn't become a focal point, as in the later one. I think one thing tryingtofigureitout has been saying is that perhaps some evidence relating to Carlene from 1972 could have been among the "stuff" DeB had at that time and may have been lost somehow after the arrest and/or during the time he was incarcerated for that first counterfeit bust.

Guess he could have been visiting malls in the earlier round of passing, too, just don't KNOW that he was.

One reason he had so many socks may have been because his passing MO was to purchase small-dollar items with a bogus bill and then get real money back in change. Of course, he may have had a "sock thing" as well -- I didn't know that about Bundy!

Other stuff: I agree with your thinking on why "traveling" serial killers seem a reasonable possibility in this case.

I believe you are correct about the UID/missing person DNA needing to be the same in type to be compared. I was reading a thread in Unidentified the other night that explained it well, I thought -- sure wish I had bookmarked it.

I wonder what all relatives provided samples for Carlene's DNA testing, and when that was done...

 

[Backwoods]

dogperson, hope you don't mind -- I borrowed one of your images for this post, and added three purple dots to it, explanation forthcoming:

What I am trying to do with my three purple dots (one just above your blue one) is mark the POSSIBLE locations of the part of Westgate where, on the "back" side, there was an entrance/exit that came out into an "L" angle of the outside walls and then, on the lefthand side as you walked out, there were a few storefronts outside of the "covered" mall. A dry cleaners', a barbershop, I know, and I think at one time an arcade-type thing where some pinball machines were.

I have mentioned this before, but since my memory of this was unsure, I have since then asked several folks, a bit older than me, where you would have been in Westgate if you were playing pinball there in 1972. Some could not recall, but two had the same feeling about this little outside strip as me, so, though I am still not SURE, I feel better about trying to mark the location I'm thinking of.

Problem is -- I can't be sure which of those western-facing "L" angles would be it! If I had a straight-on view of THAT side of Westgate, I think I could locate it, but it is harder than I thought to do so looking on the building from the front side. I THINK it would be at one of my independent purple dots ... but it could be at the place I put a dot above your blue one.

I'll try to see if I can't get someone else who remembers to help me pinpoint it better, but I'll go on and post this in the meantime.

As I recall, that entrance was not heavily used, so I have been thinking that little section of the outside walls and that part of the parking lot might have been a possible abduction spot, if someone watched Carlene watch the guys play pinball, etc. It fits with "people behind Westgate" saying they heard screams, too, since this is the back side of the mall.


ETA: Adding a second image, which is a "dual photo" taken from the same brochure your image was. In the left photo of the duo, you can see front of the barber shop I remember. Notice the brick walls -- showing this is an "outside the main mall" storefront.

 

[dogperson]

Putting those purple dots on the map helps me because I have never been to Macon and am not familiar with the area. I found some info on other websites about Westgate Mall but there is very little info on the smaller stores in the mall, so the pinball place isn't really mentioned by name except I did see one article that said something about Noah's Arcade. I don't know if that would be the pinball place or not.

You know I was thinking that if some of the areas that were dirt roads back then have been developed and built up, Carlene's remains could be underneath a housing development by now. If the police had taken this seriously at the time and had used cadaver dogs, they may have found her in a wooded area up one of those dirt roads. At least her family would have a gravesite to visit even if her killer was never caught. If they had found her soon enough and collected and saved evidence then even now DNA might be possible to match with someone. They just recently did that with the Boston Strangler case using old evidence.

My understanding is that Carlene's mom and all three siblings gave DNA. Not sure why they would need all of them to submit. But they should be able to do nuclear and mitochondrial DNA from living donors. They would all share the same mitochondrial DNA. Maybe the siblings gave so they could pick up the deceased father's genes too? I don't know enough about DNA to guess.

Of the known serial killers who operated in the south, I think the three guys: Debardeleben, Schaefer, Knowles are all good suspects. Other than those, if it was a guy passing thru, we might never know. I think Schaefer bragged about having killed girls in multiple states but he was never definitely linked to any other than in Florida.

Yeah, Bundy's sock fetish was weird. I only saw that in one book, I think it's by Stephen Michaud but I'm at work and can't check it right now to be sure. He had a huge collection of new socks that they found after his arrest, most of which were either shoplifted or purchased with stolen credit cards. I am thinking his were tube socks whereas Debardeleben had dress socks. Seems like an odd goal in life, to wear a new pair of socks every day, but then I guess we can't expect these type of folks to be logical.

 

[annegrete]

Putting those purple dots on the map helps me because I have never been to Macon and am not familiar with the area. I found some info on other websites about Westgate Mall but there is very little info on the smaller stores in the mall, so the pinball place isn't really mentioned by name except I did see one article that said something about Noah's Arcade. I don't know if that would be the pinball place or not.

You know I was thinking that if some of the areas that were dirt roads back then have been developed and built up, Carlene's remains could be underneath a housing development by now. If the police had taken this seriously at the time and had used cadaver dogs, they may have found her in a wooded area up one of those dirt roads. At least her family would have a gravesite to visit even if her killer was never caught. If they had found her soon enough and collected and saved evidence then even now DNA might be possible to match with someone. They just recently did that with the Boston Strangler case using old evidence.

My understanding is that Carlene's mom and all three siblings gave DNA. Not sure why they would need all of them to submit. But they should be able to do nuclear and mitochondrial DNA from living donors. They would all share the same mitochondrial DNA. Maybe the siblings gave so they could pick up the deceased father's genes too? I don't know enough about DNA to guess.

Of the known serial killers who operated in the south, I think the three guys: Debardeleben, Schaefer, Knowles are all good suspects. Other than those, if it was a guy passing thru, we might never know. I think Schaefer bragged about having killed girls in multiple states but he was never definitely linked to any other than in Florida.

Yeah, Bundy's sock fetish was weird. I only saw that in one book, I think it's by Stephen Michaud but I'm at work and can't check it right now to be sure. He had a huge collection of new socks that they found after his arrest, most of which were either shoplifted or purchased with stolen credit cards. I am thinking his were tube socks whereas Debardeleben had dress socks. Seems like an odd goal in life, to wear a new pair of socks every day, but then I guess we can't expect these type of folks to be logical.

bbm: It creeps me out. I hadn't thought about Carlene being buried under a current housing development. This theory goes along with my hunch that she wasn't taken very far.

 

[Backwoods]

My understanding is that Carlene's mom and all three siblings gave DNA. Not sure why they would need all of them to submit. But they should be able to do nuclear and mitochondrial DNA from living donors. They would all share the same mitochondrial DNA. Maybe the siblings gave so they could pick up the deceased father's genes too? I don't know enough about DNA to guess.

<respectfully snipped for focus>


That would be in accord with the Guidelines for Collection of DNA from NAMUS:

If only one parent is available to provide a DNA sample, it is best practice to obtain FRSs from the biological parent in addition to as many of the MP&#8217;s full biological siblings as possible.

o This will enable construction of a family pedigree and will increase the
frequency and type of searches automatically conducted in the Combined
DNA Index System (CODIS).

o Additional FRSs will increase the probability of an identification being made.

from the pdf document at: https://identifyus.org/documents/NamUs-DNA_Protocol_for_Collection.pdf


FRS in above = Family Reference Sample

 

[dogperson]

Thanks for the DNA info, that clears up my question. Sounds like whoever helped the family with the DNA collection knew the correct procedure. I just don't understand why Carlene is not appearing on the ruleouts of any of these UIDS from the 1970s along with all the other ruleouts. I am afraid the ball got dropped again and her DNA is sittin somewhere locally and not in CODIS.

 

[Backwoods]

I haven't had a lot of time for posting on WS for several days, but still reading when I can ... and I surely haven't forgotten Carlene. I think of her often -- did so strongly the other day when I was in the "Westgate area" of Macon. Mulling some things over ... somehow, I just feel like her case may still be solve-able, in some way, to some degree.