Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

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Knowing exactly the type of person Snay is based on his history and what he posts and does online, why would he be on the witness list for this hearing anyway? So he shows up for court and gets in a fight, which isn't surprising and it actually predictable so again why was he on this list?
Who knows? Apparently, even RA was confused.

MacDonald said the defense has stated they intend to call multiple witnesses and produce more than 20 exhibits in the contempt hearing. She said Allen is in the courtroom and “ … looks confused by exactly what is going on.” She also said that it appears that Allen is “ … sometimes paying attention and sometimes not.”

 
Saw a clip yesterday of Joseph Giacalone lamenting the bullet being recovered after the CS was left unsecured. I don't know if that's fact yet, so far, I see it disputed. If that's a possibility, the D could get a lot more traction with that than packing a courtroom with YouTubers, JMO. If it is the case that it was recovered after CS unsecured, this is more of an immediate help to the D than the Odinism, and I wish they'd give the bullet situation a little more attention. If it's not the case, I can see why the court was packed with YouTubers. Still don't know what the situation is with that bullet, but if the bullet becomes useless (and Giacalone seems to fear it will be the case), that could resuscitate the D and become a nightmare for the P.
 
Saw a clip yesterday of Joseph Giacalone lamenting the bullet being recovered after the CS was left unsecured. I don't know if that's fact yet, so far, I see it disputed. If that's a possibility, the D could get a lot more traction with that than packing a courtroom with YouTubers, JMO. If it is the case that it was recovered after CS unsecured, this is more of an immediate help to the D than the Odinism, and I wish they'd give the bullet situation a little more attention. If it's not the case, I can see why the court was packed with YouTubers. Still don't know what the situation is with that bullet, but if the bullet becomes useless (and Giacalone seems to fear it will be the case), that could resuscitate the D and become a nightmare for the P.
I think the forensic science behind the bullet being tied to RA’s gun will be introduced and dissected. But I believe LE when they say it was found in between Abby and Libby. That tells me it was found while the bodies were still at the crime scene.

According to the unsealed probable cause affidavit in the Delphi double murder case, an unspent .40 bullet was found in between the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German.
 
Saw a clip yesterday of Joseph Giacalone lamenting the bullet being recovered after the CS was left unsecured. I don't know if that's fact yet, so far, I see it disputed. If that's a possibility, the D could get a lot more traction with that than packing a courtroom with YouTubers, JMO. If it is the case that it was recovered after CS unsecured, this is more of an immediate help to the D than the Odinism, and I wish they'd give the bullet situation a little more attention. If it's not the case, I can see why the court was packed with YouTubers. Still don't know what the situation is with that bullet, but if the bullet becomes useless (and Giacalone seems to fear it will be the case), that could resuscitate the D and become a nightmare for the P.
I think we just only know at the trial. Barbara Macdonald said it's her "understanding" the bullet was found days later after the crime scene was left unsecured. Murder Sheet on episode said they heard thar rumour 1 year ago, investigated and fount out that's was not true. Who knows.
 
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Who knows? Apparently, even RA was confused.

MacDonald said the defense has stated they intend to call multiple witnesses and produce more than 20 exhibits in the contempt hearing. She said Allen is in the courtroom and “ … looks confused by exactly what is going on.” She also said that it appears that Allen is “ … sometimes paying attention and sometimes not.”


I don't know because I surely wasn't present for the hearing. It seems to me that when locked in a tiny prison cell all day and night, then given a chance to leave it for a while, would be a welcomed relief. That courthouse is absolutely exquisite. The dome ceiling is stained glass that allows the colored shadows of light to filter into the courtroom.

This link goes to a stunning 360 of the architectural magnificence of the Allen Co courthouse. The pale green marble pillars and white marble wide staircase are mesmerizing.

Screenshot 2024-03-20 214739.png
source:
https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/04/78/27_big.jpg
 
I don't know because I surely wasn't present for the hearing. It seems to me that when locked in a tiny prison cell all day and night, then given a chance to leave it for a while, would be a welcomed relief. That courthouse is absolutely exquisite. The dome ceiling is stained glass that allows the colored shadows of light to filter into the courtroom.

This link goes to a stunning 360 of the architectural magnificence of the Allen Co courthouse. The pale green marble pillars and white marble wide staircase are mesmerizing.

View attachment 491935
source:
https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/04/78/27_big.jpg

I don't know if you viewed the courthouse website but there are more photos there. Also, Allen Co. courthouse can be rented for events. It also has an underground tunnel from the jail so there are rarely perp walks but I have seen a few where the media is let in and they record walking from the end of the tunnel to courtroom. I recall seeing a John D. Miller's (April Tinsley's murderer) perp walk in the tunnel.

 
Saw a clip yesterday of Joseph Giacalone lamenting the bullet being recovered after the CS was left unsecured. I don't know if that's fact yet, so far, I see it disputed. If that's a possibility, the D could get a lot more traction with that than packing a courtroom with YouTubers, JMO. If it is the case that it was recovered after CS unsecured, this is more of an immediate help to the D than the Odinism, and I wish they'd give the bullet situation a little more attention. If it's not the case, I can see why the court was packed with YouTubers. Still don't know what the situation is with that bullet, but if the bullet becomes useless (and Giacalone seems to fear it will be the case), that could resuscitate the D and become a nightmare for the P.
Personally, the bullet is of extremely limited value either way. The toolmark junk science was sufficient for probable cause, but it would either be completely left out at trial, neutered by weak language like consistent with or blasted by experts to the point of being detrimental to the prosecution. When the PCA first came out I challenged everyone here to see if they could find any case in which toolmarks on an unfired cartridge played any significant role in a conviction. So far I haven't heard of any. I'm still looking.
There are several (non-toolmark junk) methods of legitimately matching the cartridge to RA - fingerprints, touch DNA, for example. But now you would have questions about how and when it got there.

Eta: JMHO
 
Personally, the bullet is of extremely limited value either way. The toolmark junk science was sufficient for probable cause, but it would either be completely left out at trial, neutered by weak language like consistent with or blasted by experts to the point of being detrimental to the prosecution. When the PCA first came out I challenged everyone here to see if they could find any case in which toolmarks on an unfired cartridge played any significant role in a conviction. So far I haven't heard of any. I'm still looking.
There are several (non-toolmark junk) methods of legitimately matching the cartridge to RA - fingerprints, touch DNA, for example. But now you would have questions about how and when it got there.

Eta: JMHO
I answered it long ago. Diane Downs.
 
I think we just only know at the trial. Barbara Macdonald said it's her "understanding" the bullet was found days later after the crime scene was left unsecured. Murder Sheet on episode said they heard thar rumour 1 year ago, investigated and fount out that's was not true. Who knows.
I agree, who knows for sure. Did TMS explain how they “investigated” the rumour? Both they and BM seem to have a connection to individuals feeding them info. Who has the better source?? Speaking for myself only, the fact that the PCA states it was found “between Abby and Libby” doesn’t carry a whole lot of weight IF Liggett lied about other things in the PCA which the Defense claim.

As you say, we will only know things for a certainty once the trial begins, or at least that’s our hope. JMHO
 
I don't know if you viewed the courthouse website but there are more photos there. Also, Allen Co. courthouse can be rented for events. It also has an underground tunnel from the jail so there are rarely perp walks but I have seen a few where the media is let in and they record walking from the end of the tunnel to courtroom. I recall seeing a John D. Miller's (April Tinsley's murderer) perp walk in the tunnel.

Just beautiful! As an aside, I noticed this posted on the site:

Important: Cell Phones

Cell phones and cameras are NOT permitted in the building during business hours. You are welcome to have your cell phones and cameras during privately hosted special events in the evening and on weekends.

So, I guess no cell phones and cameras is a “standing order” at the courthouse and not JG’s personal preference.
 
Thanks to FG posting this link I just read, I understand now where the State's request is coming from #5, 6, 7. They're not trying to prevent the depositions, only asking that the information be limited in scope to RA and his stay at Westville and for the information gathered to be protected. The Defense doesn't have a strong record on that front.

Not unreasonable considering the level of animosity that derived from this case. It's been stated here often about how dangerous and high level this conspiracy coverup may be.

State Motion for PO for DOC evidence.pdf

MOO
And the defense says, at the end, "RA is willing to agree" to keeping the depositions sealed until/if the information contained in them are allowed into trial. Good move on the prosecution's part to try and make sure irrelevant information isn't broadcast to the winds before jury selection and trial. Cannot trust this defense team. AJMO
 
I think it would be interesting or perhaps helpful for the Defense to depo the COs. Without considering or going into depth about the conspiracy, I still think it is possible that jurist may ask themselves, like they may ask in other cases way religious or spiritual beliefs are brought up as a potential factor, if the COs’ Odinists beliefs influence how they responded to RA or how RA responded.

Before the defense could even discuss the theory of Odinist being involved, RA said told them that Odinists had threatened him. I wonder why at that this time did he used that description to identify them rather than his COs? How often did the COs discuss Odinism openly in front of or with Allen and how does it impact their work? How, if at all, did it impact their respond to Libby’s and Abby’s murders and their attitudes and treatments towards the suspected perp? How, if at all, did their beliefs help them cope and how often did they perform practices in front of Allen or in the prison. For example, in many religions some may pray or meditate at work when experiencing emotional distress at work. Some Christians do the sign of the cross after witnessing or learning of a recent death. It could be something or anything along those lines.

As for RA, even without the guards meaning to or blaming or judging them, is it possible that RA was triggered by the patches or symbols because it reminded him of the ones he used to stage Libby’s and Abby’s crime scenes? Incidentally did the patches fill him with shame? Guilt? With the feelings of deserving of punishment or did he assume that the gig was up because people knew of the symbols he used and he thought the patches were worn to mock him?

Did he appropriate the symbols to throw the investigation off or to put scrutiny on the Odinist believers in town and now he thinks there mad? Did he once talk to and use information from another Odinist who may practice with the COs and he is afraid that person will somehow put two-and-two together if how they were used once the case goes public? Did he fear grow angry, hateful or violent towards his family in retaliation or that person could be the final link to absolutely prove to the jury he is guilty and should be found so and sentenced?

Speculation but perhaps learning about the COs faith in Odinism and how it impacts their interactions with Allen and vice versa may be yield helpful and enlightening data to both the defense and prosecutor. I wouldn’t even mind that the dep was sealed. I don’t need to read it but I do hope it is helpful in the trial to pursue of justice for Libby, Abby, their loved ones and communities.
Is there a link to this information?

"Before the defense could even discuss the theory of Odinist being involved, RA said told them that Odinists had threatened him."
 
BBM
Just wanted to point out that the Franks didn’t make a clear statement that the RA said “the Odinists were threatening him”. They footnoted one statement then framed another as RA mumbling in somewhat incoherent fashion.
This doesn’t seem like fact. This would be a strong thing to state and it’s not stated strongly. It’s danced around. Page 22 of Franks Memo

I also want to remind that we have no evidence that there was any Odinist symbolism at the crime scene. We have people placing their opinions on sticks and blood splatter. Sticks could have been used to cover or even destroy the crime scene. IMO this just isn’t enough.

If Odinist symbols were at the crime scene then why didn’t we see any items regarding evidence of Odinism in any search warrants. Wouldn’t they be looking for runes in a search warrant if it tied to the crime scene? Why would RL even be looked at and other individuals without any Odinists ties?

The group named in the Franks are unsavory people practicing an uncommon religion. I think BH’s social media posts was what started the whole Odinist angle. Not necessarily the crime scene.
I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that any members of the investigated group have any ties to the crime.
AJMO
I wasn’t trying to allege that Odinism did in fact play a definitive role in the murders or the staging. Nor was I trying to assert that the aforementioned practitioners were involved.

However, since this is one of the theories or arguments that seem to be purported by the defense I do think deposing the Odinite correction officers could be beneficial, insightful and valuable to both the defense and prosecutors. In their own way as practicing followers of Odinism the depos of the two correction officers have some level of expertise about the belief system.Perhaps the information yielded will enable the prosecutors to defeat in court the defense’s interpretation of the crime scene or perhaps it will lead the defense to rule out one theory or further hone their strategy as they prepare for trial. Whether or not the evidence or information yielded from the depositions will be admissible cannot yet be predicted with certainty but I do see their possible potential to smoothen an already daunting and complicated court process for all parties involved, especially loved ones who advocate for justice for Libby and Abby.

Even if the information yielded from the depos is not admissible it they could still have the potential to generate further questions, insights or theories that the defense, and perhaps after review, the prosecutors and LE may decide are important to investigate leaving no stone unturned and further helping provide answers and closure to Libby’s and Abby’s families.

Also, it was notable to me not so much that he said he was threatened but that he identified the COs as Odinites. For me personally I wonder why that was the identifier he chose for them rather than the guards, their names or any such. After all, they aren’t the only Odinites in that prison and AB and BR said they haven’t mentioned Odinism or Odinist yet at this point yet it is implied he was aware of it. To be clear, I am not accusing or judging them. However, since the defense is focused on the Odinist theory that believers more likely committed the crimes, are threatening RA into confessing and that their threats and presence in the prison conversations allegedly lead to RA’s mental and physical decline, I could imagine, if this comes up at trial, at least one jury member would still be interested in hearing how often did the COs talk to him about their beliefs, how did it impact how they treated and worked with him and how did RA respond to their beliefs or symbology when present.
 
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I actually love this. There is no place for the behavior those two exhibited yesterday in a courtroom. I saw one of the "gentleman's" response yesterday; it sounded like a child's retelling of a primary school cafeteria fight. And he was proud of it. Really shameful behavior.
And then they carried their childish rage outside, hope you all got to see that video. Too bad JG didn't impose the other part of that Paragraph and throw them both in jail for the night. JMO
 
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Who knows? Apparently, even RA was confused.

MacDonald said the defense has stated they intend to call multiple witnesses and produce more than 20 exhibits in the contempt hearing. She said Allen is in the courtroom and “ … looks confused by exactly what is going on.” She also said that it appears that Allen is “ … sometimes paying attention and sometimes not.”

Maybe they haven't filled "Ricky" in on all that's been happening...all under his name?
 
Saw a clip yesterday of Joseph Giacalone lamenting the bullet being recovered after the CS was left unsecured. I don't know if that's fact yet, so far, I see it disputed. If that's a possibility, the D could get a lot more traction with that than packing a courtroom with YouTubers, JMO. If it is the case that it was recovered after CS unsecured, this is more of an immediate help to the D than the Odinism, and I wish they'd give the bullet situation a little more attention. If it's not the case, I can see why the court was packed with YouTubers. Still don't know what the situation is with that bullet, but if the bullet becomes useless (and Giacalone seems to fear it will be the case), that could resuscitate the D and become a nightmare for the P.
Joseph Giacalone is a bit of a youtuber himself. Yes he's an ex-LE cold caser but from NYC so also a pundit in the Delphi case. MO
 
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I don't know because I surely wasn't present for the hearing. It seems to me that when locked in a tiny prison cell all day and night, then given a chance to leave it for a while, would be a welcomed relief. That courthouse is absolutely exquisite. The dome ceiling is stained glass that allows the colored shadows of light to filter into the courtroom.

This link goes to a stunning 360 of the architectural magnificence of the Allen Co courthouse. The pale green marble pillars and white marble wide staircase are mesmerizing.

View attachment 491935
source:
https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/04/78/27_big.jpg
Stunning! It was quite the restoration done.

 
the only person who can really testify that RA was forced to confess due to an odinist prison guard plot is RA

anyone else claiming that is obvious hearsay as to the truth of the claim.

it’s obvious why

Rozzi: why did you admit it you dummy?

RA: they made me.

rozzi can’t give this evidence to prove the truth of it.
 
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