Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #178

[snooptroop88]

IMO,

A tinge of shame.
I don't see anything ritualistic, rather I see it as more of a signature.

JMO

Speaking really broadly, I would think when murder's almost exclusively fantasy driven, MOO you're more looking at a lone actor. When people initially started discussing this on this thread, I thought of the circumstances in the Idaho case. If the murderer's out there acting out on some crazed fantasy, it's going to be very unlikely he has company of the same mind, jmo. That's going to be (JMO) too "individualized" a situation. But wouldn't rule out the cult, either, and reasons that would get into particulars which we don't yet have. The "redressing" situation isn't necessarily going to be in line with any given ritual on its face (although it might/am researching a practice saw mentioned some time back). Maybe we'd more be looking at ritualistic elements twisted into the framework of some like-minded perps. Cults seem like they'd be breeding grounds for "ritualistic innovation," MOO. The cult's ritual elements could lend a bond and a type of "purpose" to shared violence and pathology. I'm never going to be able to get past the date of these crimes in terms of significance. Valentine's Day rivals Halloween in terms of its "crossing over" qualities when it comes to paganism and modern "mainstream" religions, jmo. Both have been embraced into the mainstream, but they still retain really strong pagan roots.

 

[iamshadow21]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... I don't think there is much religious or ritual in what we've heard about the site. I think things were coloured first by the religious beliefs and comments by various LE, and secondly by the Odinist confection of the Franks Motion.

What I hear is, two young girls, abducted with a weapon, stripped, killed with a knife, one redressed, covered with vegetation debris in the woods. And that is a very familiar kind of crime, and religion and spirituality tends to have little to do with it, in my experience of reading true crime.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... I don't think there is much religious or ritual in what we've heard about the site. I think things were coloured first by the religious beliefs and comments by various LE, and secondly by the Odinist confection of the Franks Motion.

What I hear is, two young girls, abducted with a weapon, stripped, killed with a knife, one redressed, covered with vegetation debris in the woods. And that is a very familiar kind of crime, and religion and spirituality tends to have little to do with it, in my experience of reading true crime.

MOO

I agree.
There is very little chance that this was tied to any ritual or religious group.
I suppose that it was my attempt to show how far fetched the idea of some spiritual cult came together to perform a ritual. I mean why Odinists and not Catholics or Baptists?
Eh, I will slowly back away...I certainly don't want to spark another conspiracy.

 

[layer]

I remember that the first objection to the 40 cal round ejection marks.
Just that only 94% of (IIRC 30) examiners correctly identified in a blind test the round as having been cycked through RAs Sig P226.

The question for me would be how many non-RA Sigs were included in those tests. I would like to know the error rate on matching 1 cycled round from 1 P226 to similar rounds cycled through 1000 different P226's.

 

[Trebor5591]

I remember that the first objection to the 40 cal round ejection marks.
Just that only 94% of (IIRC 30) examiners correctly identified in a blind test the round as having been cycked through RAs Sig P226.

Which means that 6% of examiners did not correctly identify the round based on ejection marks.
6% failure rate is way, way too high. I think ejection mark identification is not reliable. IMO

 

[layer]

Which means that 6% of examiners did not correctly identify the round based on ejection marks.
6% failure rate is way, way too high.

I'm not sure I would call that an error rate, unless they actually identified the round as excluded from RA's weapon; or having been cyclced through a different firearm entirely. Kind of like if a fingerprint can't be read by one examiner but can be read by others, perhaps.

I think ejection mark identification is not reliable.

Agree 100%, at least with regard to unfired shells.

 

[Salah11]

I definitely don’t believe Odinist are involved.

Loads of sticks used to cover the body but it looked strange so the police did their due diligence and investigated to check there was not some significant interpretation to the pattern and there wasn’t. Now like everything the defense has done so far they have then tried to twist it into someting that’s not there.

MOOO

 

[snooptroop88]

I definitely don’t believe Odinist are involved.

Loads of sticks used to cover the body but it looked strange so the police did their due diligence and investigated to check there was not some significant interpretation to the pattern and there wasn’t. Now like everything the defense has done so far they have then tried to twist it into someting that’s not there.

MOOO

Same here, but I can't get over the rune and the date. It just looks "cult-like." Personally, I think it's CSAM related, but I'm seeing "fantasy-driven" brought up a lot, and that to me (JMO) sounds more individualized, and maybe (?) leaning into some like-minded perps incorporating elements of ritual.

The more I see on here, the more I think CSAM related, JMO.

 

[justtrish]

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

I was re-reading the AA and I wanted to share because seeing the times like this really helps me see flow of things. I thought maybe it would help others too maybe a refresher on what we do know as facts based on video time stamps and photos/videos taken at exact times. Witness testimony is not always 100%, but when we take their information with exact times we know things happened like cars on video and timestamps on photos, it does paint a more accurate picture.

1:26 - girl witness (one of the group of 3 girls walking) takes photo of a bench on the east side of freedom bridge- then states her and her friends are walking toward Freedom Bridge after that photo is taken and they pass BG at some point after that. They are heading toward Freedom bridge and BG is heading toward Monan High Bridge.

1:27 a car believed to be RA's seen on camera

130 - 330 RA says he was at the trails

1:46 woman driving to trail to walk sees girls on freedom bridge as she passes under it and then she then parks

1:46-2:14 lone woman witness walks the trail- she walks to Monan High bridge and sees BG on the bridge on platform 1, she turns around and walks back the way she came and leaves.

***So if this woman walked out and back then her 30 or so minutes total walk would be safe to assume she was at the Monan High Bridge about 2pm and sees BG.

1:49 Abby and Libby dropped off.

***Sometime after 2 or so the woman walking back toward her car says she passes 2 girls she believes were Abby and Libby as they headed toward the High Bridge.

2:07 Photo of Abby on bridge

2:13 Abby and Libby encounter man.. video on bridge

Per RAs interview he walked out on to platform 1 and then walked back and sat on a bench. So if the woman walking saw him about 2pm on the platform and then she passes Abby and Libby as she walks back toward her car and RA is then leaving the bridge to sit on a bench.

Edited to add: RA said he didn't see Abby and Libby.. so HOW? He is on the bridge about 2pm and admits that he was on the bridge and then sitting on the bench. The woman walking sees him and we know exactly when she would have seen him because he was only there about 30 minutes and went out and back.. so half way point is 2pm. Girls are dropped off and we know that is an exact time.. we know Libby takes a photo of Abby at 2:07pm. So RA would HAVE to see 2 girls either walk past while he was on the bench or when he was leaving because the timeline is too tight. He was still there when Abby and Libby walked out onto the bridge.

3:57 woman sees man walking on 300. This is believed to be BG leaving after his crimes.

 

[layer]

Loads of sticks used to cover the body but it looked strange so the police did their due diligence and investigated to check there was not some significant interpretation to the pattern and there wasn’t.

What's that called when you see shapes in clouds?
Pareidolia

 

[Ravenmoon]

Mm

Same here, but I can't get over the rune and the date. It just looks "cult-like." Personally, I think it's CSAM related, but I'm seeing "fantasy-driven" brought up a lot, and that to me (JMO) sounds more individualized, and maybe (?) leaning into some like-minded perps incorporating elements of ritual.

The more I see on here, the more I think CSAM related, JMO.

Yep.
People find it easier to believe that Satanists, cult members, Odinists are the only potential possible perps.

Satanic Panic.

It's harder to accept that the Church goer, the CVS clerk or the Guy nextdoor is responsible.

But 9 out of 10 times it is the later.

JMO

 

[zh0r4]

They didnt secure the discs after the interviews.
Left them in a machine capable of overwriting them.

Yea it’s just weird they would ever be stored like that & not either on a cloud or have physical copies on sight (which would be an outdated way but at least they wouldn’t be overwritten). It wasn’t body cam footage, it was interviews for a double homicide of 2 children.

JMO

 

[layer]

People find it easier to believe that Satanists, cult members, Odinists are the only potential possible perps.

I never even heard of Odinists before, but I vividly remember satanic panic.I'm not sure it ever went away, really.

 

[zh0r4]

Rozzi and Baldwin alleged in their latest motion that documents exist summarizing these two interviews which are paramount to the defense team’s ritualistic killing theory. But these interviews only exist in summary documents, not raw recordings or direct transcriptions of what these two individuals said.

Rozzi and Baldwin state that while attempting to track down the recordings, the pair discovered that the interviews were recorded over due to a “DVR program error” and therefore deleted.

“The destruction of material interviews of key suspects, early in the investigation, demonstrates negligence, if not intentional conduct on the part of the State,” the attorneys wrote.

The attorneys claim these interviews were a key part of their defense, with an important part of their defense strategy being questioning the credibility and accuracy of these two suspects’ statements — two suspects whom the defense team paints as being behind the Delphi murders.

Delphi defense team claims interviews with ‘key suspects’ were deleted; call on murder charges to be thrown out

ALLEN COUNTY, Ind. — The Delphi suspect’s defense team is calling for the murder charges leveled against their client, Richard Allen, to be thrown out after claiming that interview recordings…

fox59.com

“The destruction of material interviews of key suspects, early in the investigation, demonstrates negligence, if not intentional conduct on the part of the State,” the attorneys wrote.

How and why do they suppose the state 'intentionally' erased all of those interviews? Their client hadn't even been discovered much less arrested at that time.

I don’t think it could be proven it was intentional or unintentional any more than intentional or unintentional photo leaks could be proven. There’s really no way to know either way.

 

[Salah11]

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

I was re-reading the AA and I wanted to share because seeing the times like this really helps me see flow of things. I thought maybe it would help others too maybe a refresher on what we do know as facts based on video time stamps and photos/videos taken at exact times. Witness testimony is not always 100%, but when we take their information with exact times we know things happened like cars on video and timestamps on photos, it does paint a more accurate picture.

1:26 - girl witness (one of the group of 3 girls walking) takes photo of a bench on the east side of freedom bridge- then states her and her friends are walking toward Freedom Bridge after that photo is taken and they pass BG at some point after that. They are heading toward Freedom bridge and BG is heading toward Monan High Bridge.

1:27 a car believed to be RA's seen on camera

130 - 330 RA says he was at the trails

1:46 woman driving to trail to walk sees girls on freedom bridge as she passes under it and then she then parks

1:46-2:14 lone woman witness walks the trail- she walks to Monan High bridge and sees BG on the bridge on platform 1, she turns around and walks back the way she came and leaves.

***So if this woman walked out and back then her 30 or so minutes total walk would be safe to assume she was at the Monan High Bridge about 2pm and sees BG.

1:49 Abby and Libby dropped off.

***Sometime after 2 or so the woman walking back toward her car says she passes 2 girls she believes were Abby and Libby as they headed toward the High Bridge.

2:07 Photo of Abby on bridge

2:13 Abby and Libby encounter man.. video on bridge

Per RAs interview he walked out on to platform 1 and then walked back and sat on a bench. So if the woman walking saw him about 2pm on the platform and then she passes Abby and Libby as she walks back toward her car and RA is then leaving the bridge to sit on a bench.

Edited to add: RA said he didn't see Abby and Libby.. so HOW? He is on the bridge about 2pm and admits that he was on the bridge and then sitting on the bench. The woman walking sees him and we know exactly when she would have seen him because he was only there about 30 minutes and went out and back.. so half way point is 2pm. Girls are dropped off and we know that is an exact time.. we know Libby takes a photo of Abby at 2:07pm. So RA would HAVE to see 2 girls either walk past while he was on the bench or when he was leaving because the timeline is too tight. He was still there when Abby and Libby walked out onto the bridge.

3:57 woman sees man walking on 300. This is believed to be BG leaving after his crimes.

Yes if he was not guilty he would admit to having seen both girls. The fact he denies seeing them when he was directly on their path proves he is lying.

Only a guilty man would deny seeing them that afternoon.

 

[zh0r4]

These technically challenged people don't know the meaning (and IMPORTANCE) of the term "BACKUP".

Pathetic.

When I helped a retired detective on case, he had interviews uploaded via a server managed by his IT team to Dropbox. He was retired & was helping for free but still paid for it.

 

[Boxer]

The question for me would be how many non-RA Sigs were included in those tests. I would like to know the error rate on matching 1 cycled round from 1 P226 to similar rounds cycled through 1000 different P226's.

A standard to challenge might need to to be developed.

The test to add to the arrest warrant was simply to exclude or match.

 

[snooptroop88]

Mm



Yep.
People find it easier to believe that Satanists, cult members, Odinists are the only potential possible perps.

Satanic Panic.

It's harder to accept that the Church goer, the CVS clerk or the Guy nextdoor is responsible.

But 9 out of 10 times it is the later.

JMO

Understood, but perps of the Satanic persuasion aren't off limits because they happen to be Satanic. Cult killers aren't off limits because they're cult killers. (Richard Ramirez. Possibly murderer/s of Jeanette DePalma. I'm sure others on here know of many cult crimes) In this case, it would be a pagan cult based on the rune, but I mean Jim Jones wasn't a "pagan cult," everyone still recognizes his cult resulted in hundreds of deaths. There's nothing panicky about wondering if a CS with a rune on a tree-- for a crime that occurred on a significant date-- has something more behind it, JMO. And agreed it's probably not the case here regardless (I don't think it is), but not completely ruling it out.

I'm sure many Satanists and cult members may work at the CVS. Many Satanists and cult members may attend practices at mainstream religious services for whatever reason. Perhaps there's a cult member right now next door to someone, anyone, myself, or a Satanist next door. How would I know, and why would I care, unless they leave potentially telltale signs behind at a murder scene?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Understood, but perps of the Satanic persuasion aren't off limits because they happen to be Satanic. Cult killers aren't off limits because they're cult killers. (Richard Ramirez. Possibly murderer/s of Jeanette DePalma. I'm sure others on here know of many cult crimes) In this case, it would be a pagan cult based on the rune, but I mean Jim Jones wasn't a "pagan cult," everyone still recognizes his cult resulted in hundreds of deaths. There's nothing panicky about wondering if a CS with a rune on a tree-- for a crime that occurred on a significant date-- has something more behind it, JMO. And agreed it's probably not the case here regardless (I don't think it is), but not completely ruling it out.

I'm sure many Satanists and cult members may work at the CVS. Many Satanists and cult members may attend practices at mainstream religious services for whatever reason. Perhaps there's a cult member right now next door to someone, anyone, myself, or a Satanist next door. How would I know, and why would I care, unless they leave potentially telltale signs behind at a murder scene?

Sure, understood.
Of course people that commit murder come in all religions, colors and sizes.

I kind of regret posting variables, but it just seems fair to remind people that the odds of this murder being the result of a cult sacrifice are slim.

It's become a normal topic on this thread and I personally don't believe it.


JMO

 

[layer]

I kind of regret posting variables, but it just seems fair to remind people that the odds of this murder being the result of a cult sacrifice are slim.

I remember a disturbingly large number of killings by (what I consider to be) cults. Charles Manson's Family , Heaven's Gate, Aum Shinrikyo, The Peoples Temple, Sara Aldrete, the Solar Temple... the list goes on and on. In comparison, actual cult sacrifices is something I'm drawing a blank on. I'm sure there must be some.