Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #181

[FrostedGlass]

I think it's likely that LE waited for their ballistics report before telling RA he could come in to pick up his vehicle. Whether or not JH screwed up with the Mirandizing, IDK... that's for the judge to figure out. But I'm really curious how much weight that bullet carries to the State's case and what the experts will say.

ETA: JH's "you're guilty of something" comment sort of brings me back to NMcL saying they have "good reason to believe" others are involved.

Laboratory activities were performed between 10/14/2022 and 10/19/2022.
The Certificate of Analysis is dated 10/19/2022.
His interviews were on Oct. 13 and Oct. 26.
Page 278

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[zh0r4]

Laboratory activities were performed between 10/14/2022 and 10/19/2022.
The Certificate of Analysis is dated 10/19/2022.
His interviews were on Oct. 13 and Oct. 26.
Page 278

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

Wait, does this mean a ballistics report on an unspent cartridge wasn’t conducted until over 5 years later?

 

[Megnut]

Wait, does this mean a ballistics report on an unspent cartridge wasn’t conducted until over 5 years later?

What would they have compared it to? It was only when a similar unspent cartridge was located at his residence that they could then make a comparison, no?

 

[TL4S]

What would they have compared it to? It was only when a similar unspent cartridge was located at his residence that they could then make a comparison, no?

I really wish we knew if BMcD's Court TV reporting about the bullet was accurate. Note it was never included in the RL PCA, either.

From an earlier post of mine:
-------------
mm 20:50

BMcD recently talked about what her sources said about the bullet. She has not heard any definitive theory from her sources that the bullet did come from the suspect, and one speculation was it even came from LE.

Delphi Murders: Illustrations Detail Defense Claims About Crime Scene

 

[FrostedGlass]

Wait, does this mean a ballistics report on an unspent cartridge wasn’t conducted until over 5 years later?

Yes. AND they didn't file the report until 6/13/2023.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I really wish we knew if BMcD's Court TV reporting about the bullet was accurate. Note it was never included in the RL PCA, either.

From an earlier post of mine:
-------------
mm 20:50

BMcD recently talked about what her sources said about the bullet. She has not heard any definitive theory from her sources that the bullet did come from the suspect, and one speculation was it even came from LE.

Delphi Murders: Illustrations Detail Defense Claims About Crime Scene

It would be helpful to learn what type of cartridges the gun-carriers at the scene used.

 

[zh0r4]

What would they have compared it to? It was only when a similar unspent cartridge was located at his residence that they could then make a comparison, no?

I assumed a ballistics report would have been done ASAP after collection of the unspent cartridge in 2017. Then this report would be referenced when investigating suspects over the years (i.e. report alleges it was cycled through x type of gun, does the current suspect in question own this type of gun?). FTR I still haven’t found 1 single case where an unspent cartridge was ever used as a main piece of evidence in a homicide case.

Still, I assume all pieces of evidence would be sent to a lab and processed in 2017.

JMO.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

27 days until trial.

 

[TTF14]

Still, I assume all pieces of evidence would be sent to a lab and processed in 2017.

RSBM.

Not with this team! They have their own "special" way of investigating.

IMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

I think it's likely that LE waited for their ballistics report before telling RA he could come in to pick up his vehicle. Whether or not JH screwed up with the Mirandizing, IDK... that's for the judge to figure out. But I'm really curious how much weight that bullet carries to the State's case and what the experts will say.

ETA: JH's "you're guilty of something" comment sort of brings me back to NMcL saying they have "good reason to believe" others are involved.

What bullet?

IIRC, the casing ... as far as we know ... is the only physical evidence that links the main crime scene to RA. That seems weighty. (Granted, the science/expert may say it's not so weighty.)

As you point out, Holeman's pressing for RA to name other(s) is consistent w/ the presser following RA's arrest. More than one involved in the murders was LE's theory at the time of RA's arrest. I wonder if this theory will be used at trial. Did LE have specific persons in mind as accomplices?

Extrapolating from these interview snippets, one can see why, in coerced confessions, RA would say that he shot the victims. Given RA also mentions CSA in his coerced confession(s) I'm wondering if the CAS topic was addressed with RA during these 2 LE interviews?

JMHO

 

[Emma Peel]

I assumed a ballistics report would have been done ASAP after collection of the unspent cartridge in 2017. Then this report would be referenced when investigating suspects over the years (i.e. report alleges it was cycled through x type of gun, does the current suspect in question own this type of gun?). FTR I still haven’t found 1 single case where an unspent cartridge was ever used as a main piece of evidence in a homicide case.

Still, I assume all pieces of evidence would be sent to a lab and processed in 2017.

JMO.

I agree and seem to recall that casing was tested against other guns earlier on. Wasn't the casing tested against an adjacent property neighbor's gun?

 

[layer]

What would they have compared it to? It was only when a similar unspent cartridge was located at his residence that they could then make a comparison, no?

Not exactly. While I have zero confidence in the ability to match unfired ammo to any firearm, I have much more confidence in the ability to identify a range of firearms it could have been cycled through. For example, they could have determined if it was consistent with any .40 S&W firearms that LE might have had at the scene.

 

[TL4S]

04/16/2024	Witness and/or Exhibit List Filed Defendant's Notice of Submission of Supplemental Witness and Exhibit List to the State Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 04/15/2024
04/16/2024	Witness and/or Exhibit List Filed Supplemental Witness List and Exhibit Notice 2.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 04/15/2024

 

[AugustWest]

RA did not say "I want an attorney". He said I'm done, yet he continued to talk. He was free to leave as he eventually did. LE is allowed to interview a suspect in a small interrogation room without windows. That is a standard police interview tactic, sitting close to the suspect, leaving 'for a second', etc. even lying to a suspect is allowed.

RSBM

You are conflating the two interviews. The first was completely non-custodial, where a Miranda warning was given, even though not required. The second was non-custodial, then turned custodial at some point. During the second there is no proof he was read a Miranda warning, which is required for a custodial interview. The factors you mentioned about interview tactics were listed by the defense to be compared against a former case in Indiana, where the SCION held analogous facts to be violative of the right against self-incrimination. This is more a question of when than what was done. If the second interview was custodial, then you must Mirandize, and in this instance it isn't clear whether RA was.

 

[vinayd]

What if they read him his rights once they put the cuffs on? Or as they were leading him down the hall to a holding cell? At that point he was officially under arrest.

 

[AugustWest]

What if they read him his rights once they put the cuffs on? Or as they were leading him down the hall to a holding cell? At that point he was officially under arrest.

For your example, when the cuffs go on, any time after that would be custodial without a doubt, as he wouldn't be free to leave. It could be custodial before that is the issue here.

At the point it becomes a custodial interview, you must be Mirandized. That is why it is important when exactly it became custodial. If it was completely non-custodial, then it likely would not be suppressed, if custodial it would be.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have to wonder if he had the opportunity to invoke his Miranda rights if he wasn't even informed of them.

The D explained that RA had in fact signed his Miranda rights copy, so I'm assuming he read them. This was the first interview on Oct 13th IIRC.

 

[TTF14]

The D explained that RA had in fact signed his Miranda rights copy, so I'm assuming he read them. This was the first interview on Oct 13th IIRC.

But that's not the one in question....

 

[vinayd]

After the first October interview when they showed up with a warrant. A smart person would have lawyered up that day. Not continually calling to find out when they could pick their car up. Let alone drive up there to grab it like it was some regular impound issue.

I feel there had to be some evidence in the veh because RA was arrested and Kathy didn't leave with the car.

 

[Emma Peel]

One would think RA knows if he was Mirandized or not for that 2nd interview.
I didn't see - in the memo to suppress 2nd interview - a direct assertion from RA that he wasn't Mirandized - per his own recollection of the 2nd interview?

RA arranged to come pick up his car, and he was asked to come in for a few questions. He agreed.
What would have happened had RA said "no, thank you", just here for the car? Was that 2nd interview critical to the arrest?

IMO, In advance of that 2nd interview: search done, car done, casing match done, timeline done with eyewitnesses listed. The 2nd interview was a gravy hunt. I'm curious if the car was released/returned to the Allens (KA) that day as they'd believe was the arrangement?

It seems LE had every intention of arresting RA upon his arrival at the station - whether he consented to that extra interview or not. If that's the case, does this change LE's obligation prior to that 2nd interview? Raise the notice bar at all?

Is this advanced LE intent - that there would be no car delivered to RA, rather RA would be delivering himself for arrest ... was the "custodial" argument?