Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182

[steeltowngirl]

Not a lawyer. Notta Motta.
But I don't want the state to be the ones deciding what are and aren't the holes in their own cases.

Not a lawyer either… found this..

“Prosecutors typically make the first call as to what is exculpatory evidence and, consequently, needs to be shared. However, the judge will ultimately decide whether a piece of information is exculpatory and must be disclosed.”

https://law.usnews.com/law-firms/advice/articles/what-is-exculpatory-evidence

 

[layer]

Not a lawyer either… found this..

“Prosecutors typically make the first call as to what is exculpatory evidence and, consequently, needs to be shared. However, the judge will ultimately decide whether a piece of information is exculpatory and must be disclosed.”

https://law.usnews.com/law-firms/advice/articles/what-is-exculpatory-evidence

It's hard to believe that anything could have been left out of the 26 TB that was turned over. There might be a kitchen sink in there.

 

[TTF14]

I’m trying to understand what exculpatory evidence the defense is believing to be withheld. The FM detailed portions of the investigation that they believe points to other suspects. So it seems to me that they already have what they are asking for. What am I missing?

And the way I'm thinking about it is, "how would they know if it's exculpatory if they haven't seen it all?" They're at the whim of trusting the Prosecutor?

 

[FrostedGlass]

A deep dive into LP's cases recovered an explanation of his arrest by Elkhart Co.
The case he was serving time in Westville for is 20D03-2009-F5-000227

This is the case that resulted in his recent arrest:
# 20D01-2012-CM-DM1772404

04/03/2024	Order Denying Defendant, a self-represented litigant, files Motion for Modification of Sentence. Record reviewed. Court observes that the Defendant was ordered to serve one (1) year in the Elkhart County Correctional Facility in this case, but Defendant's Motion indicates that he is on parole in a different case and no longer incarcerated. Due to the confusion of how the Defendant is not incarcerated serving the executed sentence in this case, the Court contacts the Elkhart County Correctional Facility and is informed that the Indiana Department of Correction released the Defendant on April 1, 2024, despite acknowledging that the Defendant still had a year to serve in this case. Court is further advised that the Defendant was instructed by an Indiana Department of Correction caseworker to immediately surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility, and that the Defendant thereafter called and spoke with an employee at the Elkhart County Correctional Facility who similarly instructed the Defendant to surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility. As of today's date, the Defendant has not surrendered himself. The Court has reviewed the Motion for Modification of Sentence and the State of Indiana's written objection thereto. The Court now DENIES the Motion for Modification of Sentence and issues a no bond warrant for the Defendant's arrest for the Defendant to serve the one (1) year executed commitment previously ordered. Pursuant to the credit time memorandum filed by the probation department, the Defendant has zero (0) days of credit. All per Order. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Noticed: PATTON, LACY D. JR Noticed: State of Indiana Noticed: Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Warrant ordered issued with no bond. Deft. to serve one (1) year in the county jail. Deft. has zero (0) days credit. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Issued
04/03/2024	Clerk Administrative Event Warrant emailed to warrants at sheriffs department.gf
04/04/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON
04/04/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department;Vicki Elaine Becker
04/04/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Served
04/05/2024	Hearing Scheduling Activity Hearing scheduled for 04/09/2024 at 1:00 PM.

 

[Emma Peel]

I’m trying to understand what exculpatory evidence the defense is believing to be withheld. The FM detailed portions of the investigation that they believe points to other suspects. So it seems to me that they already have what they are asking for. What am I missing?

First, I hope I'm understanding your question correctly. Here goes:

It's the State's obligation to deliver all exculpatory evidence to the Defense, because not only is it the law and RA's right to have that exculpatory evidence disclosed ... it also follows that only the State can know/assert the provenance and authenticity of the State's own evidence.

(A bit further: It's not the Defense's job to answer the phone in hopes that "Mr. Tip" (rather than the State) will bring them perfect, unmanipulated exculpatory State-sourced evidence. Should the Defense brings "COPIES of State reports received from Mr. Tip" to trial, how would either the D or the S know that those are "true COPIES, unaltered and complete State reports"? )

JMHO

 

[Emma Peel]

A deep dive into LP's cases recovered an explanation of his arrest by Elkhart Co.
The case he was serving time in Westville for is 20D03-2009-F5-000227

This is the case that resulted in his recent arrest:
# 20D01-2012-CM-DM1772404

04/03/2024	Order Denying Defendant, a self-represented litigant, files Motion for Modification of Sentence. Record reviewed. Court observes that the Defendant was ordered to serve one (1) year in the Elkhart County Correctional Facility in this case, but Defendant's Motion indicates that he is on parole in a different case and no longer incarcerated. Due to the confusion of how the Defendant is not incarcerated serving the executed sentence in this case, the Court contacts the Elkhart County Correctional Facility and is informed that the Indiana Department of Correction released the Defendant on April 1, 2024, despite acknowledging that the Defendant still had a year to serve in this case. Court is further advised that the Defendant was instructed by an Indiana Department of Correction caseworker to immediately surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility, and that the Defendant thereafter called and spoke with an employee at the Elkhart County Correctional Facility who similarly instructed the Defendant to surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility. As of today's date, the Defendant has not surrendered himself. The Court has reviewed the Motion for Modification of Sentence and the State of Indiana's written objection thereto. The Court now DENIES the Motion for Modification of Sentence and issues a no bond warrant for the Defendant's arrest for the Defendant to serve the one (1) year executed commitment previously ordered. Pursuant to the credit time memorandum filed by the probation department, the Defendant has zero (0) days of credit. All per Order. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Noticed: PATTON, LACY D. JR Noticed: State of Indiana Noticed: Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Warrant ordered issued with no bond. Deft. to serve one (1) year in the county jail. Deft. has zero (0) days credit. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Issued
04/03/2024	Clerk Administrative Event Warrant emailed to warrants at sheriffs department.gf
04/04/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON
04/04/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department;Vicki Elaine Becker
04/04/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Served
04/05/2024	Hearing Scheduling Activity Hearing scheduled for 04/09/2024 at 1:00 PM.

Amazing, @FrostedGlass! TYVM!

Whelp. I'm impressed AND confused.

 

[steeltowngirl]

And the way I'm thinking about it is, "how would they know if it's exculpatory if they haven't seen it all?" They're at the whim of trusting the Prosecutor?

Thus, the 26TB. But their defendant will sit in prison while they search for something that may not exist. Seems to me defense should focus on the known evidence that will be presented and show why it should be doubted by the jury.

 

[TTF14]

Thus, the 26TB. But their defendant will sit in prison while they search for something that may not exist. Seems to me defense should focus on the known evidence that will be presented and show why it should be doubted by the jury.

Yeah, I agree. Or, I'd normally agree. But as someone who thinks there is way more to this case than just Richard Allen, I understand why they want to (try to) investigate it all since the actual investigators screwed up sooooo much.

IMO MOO

 

[layer]

Whelp. I'm impressed AND confused.

Is this a companion?

 

[steeltowngirl]

First, I hope I'm understanding your question correctly. Here goes:

It's the State's obligation to deliver all exculpatory evidence to the Defense, because not only is it the law and RA's right to have that exculpatory evidence disclosed ... it also follows that only the State can know/assert the provenance and authenticity of the State's own evidence.

(A bit further: It's not the Defense's job to answer the phone in hopes that "Mr. Tip" (rather than the State) will bring them perfect, unmanipulated exculpatory State-sourced evidence. Should the Defense brings "COPIES of State reports received from Mr. Tip" to trial, how would either the D or the S know that those are "true COPIES, unaltered and complete State reports"? )

JMHO

Understood. However, if exculpatory evidence doesn’t exist, it cannot be provided. Defense has the discovery; they have already pointed out what they see as the flaws. So now they have 26TB to sift through to find the magic tip that exonerates their client. They have already stated their certainty that he’s innocent. It’s not their job to prove it, nor is it the state’s job. The state will attempt to prove to a jury that RA is guilty. Defense will convince the jury to doubt the state’s case. Shouldn’t be a problem, right?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yeah, I agree. Or, I'd normally agree. But as someone who thinks there is way more to this case than just Richard Allen, I understand why they want to (try to) investigate it all since the actual investigators screwed up sooooo much.

IMO MOO

I also think there’s more to this case than just Richard Allen. I just don’t buy into it being the Odinist gang. I expect to hear the whole story at trial, and how RA fits in, and why the State believes he is responsible for the murders of Abby and Libby.

 

[steeltowngirl]

A deep dive into LP's cases recovered an explanation of his arrest by Elkhart Co.
The case he was serving time in Westville for is 20D03-2009-F5-000227

This is the case that resulted in his recent arrest:
# 20D01-2012-CM-DM1772404

04/03/2024	Order Denying Defendant, a self-represented litigant, files Motion for Modification of Sentence. Record reviewed. Court observes that the Defendant was ordered to serve one (1) year in the Elkhart County Correctional Facility in this case, but Defendant's Motion indicates that he is on parole in a different case and no longer incarcerated. Due to the confusion of how the Defendant is not incarcerated serving the executed sentence in this case, the Court contacts the Elkhart County Correctional Facility and is informed that the Indiana Department of Correction released the Defendant on April 1, 2024, despite acknowledging that the Defendant still had a year to serve in this case. Court is further advised that the Defendant was instructed by an Indiana Department of Correction caseworker to immediately surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility, and that the Defendant thereafter called and spoke with an employee at the Elkhart County Correctional Facility who similarly instructed the Defendant to surrender himself to the Elkhart County Correctional Facility. As of today's date, the Defendant has not surrendered himself. The Court has reviewed the Motion for Modification of Sentence and the State of Indiana's written objection thereto. The Court now DENIES the Motion for Modification of Sentence and issues a no bond warrant for the Defendant's arrest for the Defendant to serve the one (1) year executed commitment previously ordered. Pursuant to the credit time memorandum filed by the probation department, the Defendant has zero (0) days of credit. All per Order. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Noticed: PATTON, LACY D. JR Noticed: State of Indiana Noticed: Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest Warrant ordered issued with no bond. Deft. to serve one (1) year in the county jail. Deft. has zero (0) days credit. MDitton/jdl Judicial Officer: Ditton, Eric - MAG Order Signed: 04/03/2024
04/03/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Issued
04/03/2024	Clerk Administrative Event Warrant emailed to warrants at sheriffs department.gf
04/04/2024	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : LACY D. PATTON
04/04/2024	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Denying ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department Order Issuing Warrant for Arrest ---- 4/3/2024 : Elkhart County Sheriff's Department;Vicki Elaine Becker
04/04/2024	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Served
04/05/2024	Hearing Scheduling Activity Hearing scheduled for 04/09/2024 at 1:00 PM.

Well now. They released him on 4/1/24, then realized he should still be in jail. One heck of an April Fool’s joke!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Amazing, @FrostedGlass! TYVM!

Whelp. I'm impressed AND confused.

Thank you.
It's long and complicated.

 

[TTF14]

I also think there’s more to this case than just Richard Allen. I just don’t buy into it being the Odinist gang. I expect to hear the whole story at trial, and how RA fits in, and why the State believes he is responsible for the murders of Abby and Libby.

I think the crime scene was staged to LOOK like an Odinist gang. The fact that there seems to be evidence supporting the fact that it is WAS Odinists confuses me.

 

[Emma Peel]

Understood. However, if exculpatory evidence doesn’t exist, it cannot be provided. Defense has the discovery; they have already pointed out what they see as the flaws. So now they have 26TB to sift through to find the magic tip that exonerates their client. They have already stated their certainty that he’s innocent. It’s not their job to prove it, nor is it the state’s job. The state will attempt to prove to a jury that RA is guilty. Defense will convince the jury to doubt the state’s case. Shouldn’t be a problem, right?

I don't think we are on the same page.

The determination that "exculpatory evidence doesn't exist" is not the Prosecution's to make. Especially when the evidence is relevant to a Defense's theory of the case. Cavalier treatment of discovery rules - including this Prosecution's 6/7 months' failure to disclose discovery that is specifically related to the Defense's theory of the case - results in unfairness and mistrials.

The P's failures to be responsive to the D's discovery request (e.g. F-Memo matters, chain of custody, Libby's video, doctored clips of same) has become so bad in this case that the defense just made an appellate record detailing how it's been blocked by the Prosecution from getting timely discovery (6/7 months ago) such that RA's planned defense and use of experts interpreting evidence/discovery may be unrecoverably inhibited.

And so, while the exchange of discovery shouldn't be a problem, in this case, the failure to do so fully and timely might - in fact - be very problematic.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I don't think we are on the same page.

The determination that "exculpatory evidence doesn't exist" is not the Prosecution's to make. Especially when the evidence is relevant to a Defense's theory of the case. Cavalier treatment of discovery rules - including this Prosecution's 6/7 months' failure to disclose discovery that is specifically related to the Defense's theory of the case - results in unfairness and mistrials.

The P's failures to be responsive to the D's discovery request (e.g. F-Memo matters, chain of custody, Libby's video, doctored clips of same) has become so bad in this case that the defense just made an appellate record detailing how it's been blocked by the Prosecution from getting timely discovery (6/7 months ago) such that RA's planned defense and use of experts interpreting evidence/discovery may be unrecoverably inhibited.

And so, while the exchange of discovery shouldn't be a problem, in this case, the failure to do so fully and timely might - in fact - be very problematic.

I guarantee we aren't on the same page.

There may be no exculpatory evidence to be found, period. If it doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist.

jmo
edit:sp

 

[Emma Peel]

I guarantee we aren't on the same page.

There may be no exculpatory evidence to be found, period. If it’s doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist.

jmo

We can probably agree that there's only one page for the Rules of Discovery in Indiana.

Rule 26 - General provisions governing discovery, Ind. R. Trial. P. 26 | Casetext Search + Citator

 

[layer]

I guarantee we aren't on the same page.

And oddly, I'm on the same page as both of you. I have issues..

There may be no exculpatory evidence to be found, period. If it’s doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist.

True that!

 

[steeltowngirl]

Just a general statement. There’s no need to convince me of anything. I’m waiting to see what’s presented at trial. I don’t know if RA is guilty. I expect the prosecution to prove he is. If not, jury should acquit.

I am not a lawyer, and I won’t be on the jury. Just an onlooker here with you all, or - as I’ve said before - if I’m banished to my own lunch table, I’m ready with my lunchbox.

 

[vinayd]

I guarantee we aren't on the same page.

There may be no exculpatory evidence to be found, period. If it’s doesn’t exist, it doesn’t exist.

jmo

Just like the Bradies didn’t exist. I don’t understand why the State has to give them what is exculpatory?! What did your client tell you was exculpatory?! Ctrl F and start there!!!