Best book?

[JMO8778]

..could be,I just see it as Fuhrman thinking the head bash was inflicted with intent to kill,and Thomas is not going to get to the true heart of the matter,as it means revealing evidence.So he uses the term 'accident'..for now.(If and when he can ever reveal the truth?).'Not an accident' to me means not an accident,literally.I suppose it's the way Fuhrman put it that leads me to believe that.

 

[UKGuy]

..could be,I just see it as Fuhrman thinking the head bash was inflicted with intent to kill,and Thomas is not going to get to the true heart of the matter,as it means revealing evidence.So he uses the term 'accident'..for now.(If and when he can ever reveal the truth?).'Not an accident' to me means not an accident,literally.I suppose it's the way Fuhrman put it that leads me to believe that.

JMO8778,
Steve Thomas offers different theories as to why JonBenet was killed. The most charitable and the one most suscribed to is that of a domestic accident followed by a cover up.

But the forensic evidence suggests someone deliberately killed JonBenet within a very short period of time after this accident. It is likely that Coroner Meyer cannot be 100% certain on the final cause of death, since either the head blow, or the strangulation or both can contribute to an oxygen deficiency, the lack of brain swelling suggests that she died shortly after the accident.

Now cleaning up your daughter, or her enduring an accident are not capital crimes, they do not necessitate a staged homicide. Following her accident JonBenet could have been afforded medical attention, this was denied to her. On a prior occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club medical attention was sought immediately, so why the distinction ?

So why would an accident and some toileting issue result in the decision to kill JonBenet. Would most parents not strive to save their childs life, would the social embarrassment of the accident or bedwetting not pale into insignificance when your childs life hung in the balance?

Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory basically amounts to Patsy wiping JonBenet down, then the accident ensues, and a quick sequence of events is followed by the decision to garrote and sexually assault JonBenet then stage a homicide, all done whilst John is unaware of these events, that is until she dials 911.

So the minimum construction that you can place on this is, due to the denial of medical attention, JonBenet's killer did not want JonBenet alive to speak as a witness to her own life.

imo her death was not accidental, an accident may have led to her death, but her actual death was a deliberate act, someone wanted JonBenet dead.


.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,
Steve Thomas offers different theories as to why JonBenet was killed. The most charitable and the one most suscribed to is that of a domestic accident followed by a cover up.

But the forensic evidence suggests someone deliberately killed JonBenet within a very short period of time after this accident. It is likely that Coroner Meyer cannot be 100% certain on the final cause of death, since either the head blow, or the strangulation or both can contribute to an oxygen deficiency, the lack of brain swelling suggests that she died shortly after the accident.

Now cleaning up your daughter, or her enduring an accident are not capital crimes, they do not necessitate a staged homicide. Following her accident JonBenet could have been afforded medical attention, this was denied to her. On a prior occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club medical attention was sought immediately, so why the distinction ? Following her "accident", Patsy had to have felt her head and felt the split that was 8 1/2 inches wide. The fear that went through her body at that point had to have been incredible. Her child's head is almost in half. I would have thought she was dead. She is not moving. There is NO UNDERLYING DAMAGE TO THE TISSUE, which more than likely means, IT IS A FALL and not a hit on the head.

When Burke hit her, it was not life threatening at all. Why you bring this up over and over I don't know. And when she went to the hospital she said that Burke was 2 years old - which was a lie and well all know that. So Patsy thinks on her feet and makes sure that social services does not darken her door because they might very possible have done that if they knew his real age.

These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EVENTS.

 

[UKGuy]

JMO8778,
Steve Thomas offers different theories as to why JonBenet was killed. The most charitable and the one most suscribed to is that of a domestic accident followed by a cover up.

But the forensic evidence suggests someone deliberately killed JonBenet within a very short period of time after this accident. It is likely that Coroner Meyer cannot be 100% certain on the final cause of death, since either the head blow, or the strangulation or both can contribute to an oxygen deficiency, the lack of brain swelling suggests that she died shortly after the accident.

Now cleaning up your daughter, or her enduring an accident are not capital crimes, they do not necessitate a staged homicide. Following her accident JonBenet could have been afforded medical attention, this was denied to her. On a prior occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club medical attention was sought immediately, so why the distinction ? Following her "accident", Patsy had to have felt her head and felt the split that was 8 1/2 inches wide. The fear that went through her body at that point had to have been incredible. Her child's head is almost in half. I would have thought she was dead. She is not moving. There is NO UNDERLYING DAMAGE TO THE TISSUE, which more than likely means, IT IS A FALL and not a hit on the head.

When Burke hit her, it was not life threatening at all. Why you bring this up over and over I don't know. And when she went to the hospital she said that Burke was 2 years old - which was a lie and well all know that. So Patsy thinks on her feet and makes sure that social services does not darken her door because they might very possible have done that if they knew his real age.

These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EVENTS.

Solace,

These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EVENTS.

mmm, well I guess thats my point!

When Burke hit her, it was not life threatening at all. Why you bring this up over and over I don't know. And when she went to the hospital she said that Burke was 2 years old - which was a lie and well all know that. So Patsy thinks on her feet and makes sure that social services does not darken her door because they might very possible have done that if they knew his real age.

I bring this up because it demonstrates previous parental behaviour when JonBenet sustained an accident, therefore it has more relevance than speculation about probable behaviour.

She is not moving. There is NO UNDERLYING DAMAGE TO THE TISSUE, which more than likely means, IT IS A FALL and not a hit on the head.

If you say its a fall its a fall, if someone else says its hit its a hit! Coroner Meyer was less speculative and offered more detail i.e.

JonBenet Ramsey Autopsy Report

II. Craniocerebral injuries
A. Scalp contusion
B. Linear, comminuted fracture of right side of skull
C. Linear pattern of contusions of right cerebral
hemisphere
D. Subarachnoid and subdural hemorrhage
E. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes

What you or anyone else cannot dismiss is that the head injury may even be part of the staging, because the following sequence of events cannot be ruled out:

1. Manual Strangulation
2. Flashlight Head Injury
3. Garrote Strangulation

That is events 2. and 3. may be part of the staging hoping to hide the initial cause of death.

 

[JMO8778]

What you or anyone else cannot dismiss is that the head injury may even be part of the staging, because the following sequence of events cannot be ruled out:

1. Manual Strangulation
2. Flashlight Head Injury
3. Garrote Strangulation

That is events 2. and 3. may be part of the staging hoping to hide the initial cause of death.

I tend to think not,though,seeing as it appears they wanted the obvious cause of death seemingly be the garrote,and JB's hair was rearranged,with ponytails in place...which suggests they didn't want it noticed right away,i.e.-they didn't want someone to feel that big split in her head.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Steve Thomas offers different theories as to why JonBenet was killed. The most charitable and the one most suscribed to is that of a domestic accident followed by a cover up.

But the forensic evidence suggests someone deliberately killed JonBenet within a very short period of time after this accident. It is likely that Coroner Meyer cannot be 100% certain on the final cause of death, since either the head blow, or the strangulation or both can contribute to an oxygen deficiency, the lack of brain swelling suggests that she died shortly after the accident.

Now cleaning up your daughter, or her enduring an accident are not capital crimes, they do not necessitate a staged homicide. Following her accident JonBenet could have been afforded medical attention, this was denied to her. On a prior occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club medical attention was sought immediately, so why the distinction ?

So why would an accident and some toileting issue result in the decision to kill JonBenet. Would most parents not strive to save their childs life, would the social embarrassment of the accident or bedwetting not pale into insignificance when your childs life hung in the balance?

Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory basically amounts to Patsy wiping JonBenet down, then the accident ensues, and a quick sequence of events is followed by the decision to garrote and sexually assault JonBenet then stage a homicide, all done whilst John is unaware of these events, that is until she dials 911.

So the minimum construction that you can place on this is, due to the denial of medical attention, JonBenet's killer did not want JonBenet alive to speak as a witness to her own life.

imo her death was not accidental, an accident may have led to her death, but her actual death was a deliberate act, someone wanted JonBenet dead.


.

all good points,could be,but the thing that gets me is that,yes...panic could have ensued....but still...wouldn't a parent be in denial that their child is seriously injured/incapable of being revived? She didn't die immediately from the head injury,so you'd think,if it were Patsy..this being her pageant princess,she would be in denial,and the garroting/staging would have occurred much later...not only 10-60 mins. later.That's pretty quick for an accident.I would think denial would set in after an accident,and it would be 2-4 HOURS or more..before acceptance occurs that she is not going to be able to be revived..in which case,she more than likely would have died during that time from the head injury,and not from strangulation assoc. with the head wound.


(and yes,I'm aware someone may not have wanted her to talk of a rage accident,still,I would think there would be some denial going on,to see if she could be revived,and a longer wait would have ensued,had someone not wanted her dead,I.E.-it was no accident).

 

[UKGuy]

I tend to think not,though,seeing as it appears they wanted the obvious cause of death seemingly be the garrote,and JB's hair was rearranged,with ponytails in place...which suggests they didn't want it noticed right away,i.e.-they didn't want someone to feel that big split in her head.

JMO8778,
Sure but remember the removal of the flashlight may have occured when a prior staging offering the flashlight as an explanation for her head injury along with a to be cleaned up sexual assault?




.

 

[UKGuy]

all good points,could be,but the thing that gets me is that,yes...panic could have ensued....but still...wouldn't a parent be in denial that their child is seriously injured/incapable of being revived? She didn't die immediately from the head injury,so you'd think,if it were Patsy..this being her pageant princess,she would be in denial,and the garroting/staging would have occurred much later...not only 10-60 mins. later.That's pretty quick for an accident.I would think denial would set in after an accident,and it would be 2-4 HOURS or more..before acceptance occurs that she is not going to be able to be revived..in which case,she more than likely would have died during that time from the head injury,and not from strangulation assoc. with the head wound.


(and yes,I'm aware someone may not have wanted her to talk of a rage accident,still,I would think there would be some denial going on,to see if she could be revived,and a longer wait would have ensued,had someone not wanted her dead,I.E.-it was no accident).

JMO8778,
I agree, for all we know there may or may not have been an accident, but someone deliberately denied JonBenet medical assistance and someone either whacked her on head, or asphyxiated or manually strangled her, one or all of which was intended to make sure she was dead!

This is why it was no accident!

.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I agree, for all we know there may or may not have been an accident, but someone deliberately denied JonBenet medical assistance and someone either whacked her on head, or asphyxiated or manually strangled her, one or all of which was intended to make sure she was dead!

This is why it was no accident!

.

absolutely,my thought it that although it doesn't appear to have been planned in advance,(seeing the staging was so sloppily done),it appears to me to be a split-second decision...i.e- "I'm tired of this child,I can't take this anymore!!!!" (via Patsy),or a molestation gone wrong,with a split-second decision being made to end her life.Or Patsy could have came in on a molestation of JB,and that triggered her rage,not the potty theory.
Remember that a highly medicated Patsy said "We didn't mean for this to happen"..keyword:WE,and JR's comments "I regret,I regret", and,"I'm so sorry,I'm so sorry".All of those comments fit more into the catagory of a molestation crime,IMO.

 

[thefragile7393]

Oh my lord my head is spinning, and I'm wondering why on earth I even wanted to look into this case:banghead: I figured if I could be pregnant and handle Sharon Rocha's book, I can handle this case! Riiiight........

Both books came from the library today, and as advised I'm reading ST's book first. I'm on Chapter 4 and my head hurts already. How in the WORLD did these cops graduate the academy?!? I can clearly see already this family put the "dys" in "dysfunction" as well.

 

[UKGuy]

absolutely,my thought it that although it doesn't appear to have been planned in advance,(seeing the staging was so sloppily done),it appears to me to be a split-second decision...i.e- "I'm tired of this child,I can't take this anymore!!!!" (via Patsy),or a molestation gone wrong,with a split-second decision being made to end her life.Or Patsy could have came in on a molestation of JB,and that triggered her rage,not the potty theory.
Remember that a highly medicated Patsy said "We didn't mean for this to happen"..keyword:WE,and JR's comments "I regret,I regret", and,"I'm so sorry,I'm so sorry".All of those comments fit more into the catagory of a molestation crime,IMO.

JMO8778,
Sure, something along those lines, and thats why staging was required, otherwise why not dump JonBenet in the basement and blame it all on a nasty intruder.


The staging tells you it was no accident, the staging was designed to hide something, something the Ramsey's did not want responding law enforcement to see. Assuming all this worked out, John Ramsey's next step was to flee interstate via his private plane. Innocent parents do not need to vanish on the same morning that their daughter is discovered abducted!



.

 

[UKGuy]

Oh my lord my head is spinning, and I'm wondering why on earth I even wanted to look into this case:banghead: I figured if I could be pregnant and handle Sharon Rocha's book, I can handle this case! Riiiight........

Both books came from the library today, and as advised I'm reading ST's book first. I'm on Chapter 4 and my head hurts already. How in the WORLD did these cops graduate the academy?!? I can clearly see already this family put the "dys" in "dysfunction" as well.

thefragile7393,
If you think ST's book has your head hurting then you will not finish PMPT!

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Sure, something along those lines, and thats why staging was required, otherwise why not dump JonBenet in the basement and blame it all on a nasty intruder.


The staging tells you it was no accident, the staging was designed to hide something, something the Ramsey's did not want responding law enforcement to see. Assuming all this worked out, John Ramsey's next step was to flee interstate via his private plane. Innocent parents do not need to vanish on the same morning that their daughter is discovered abducted!



.

exactly,and I think they were still thinking of leaving when PP retrieved passports+mementos=someone or someones is seriously considering leaving the country ! Would JR do that just for Patsy? I highly doubt it ! He had too much to lose here..money,his job (although I've read speculation that was going to end early as May '97),not to mention,the children from his first family.

 

[thefragile7393]

thefragile7393,
If you think ST's book has your head hurting then you will not finish PMPT!

Oh lord that's NOT what I wanted to hear...although looking at the thickness of it I shouldn't be surprised!

 

[DeeDee249]

Oh lord that's NOT what I wanted to hear...although looking at the thickness of it I shouldn't be surprised!

It's always good to read the book versus the movie. There are details that just won't be in the movie version. That being said, the DVD of PMPT is very true to the book, and watched a second time with the "director's comments" turned on, to me, was a good as the book (which I also read). So if you can't get through the book, rent the DVD.

 

[contrarymary]

I think the very best reading is right here on Websleuths....the posters here completely turned my head around concerning this sad case. Their insights and knowledge never fail to amaze and educate me.

PS-Many thanks to chicoliving for enabling me to post here and to Tricia for hosting this fantastic website.

 

[coloradokares]

I think the very best reading is right here on Websleuths....the posters here completely turned my head around concerning this sad case. Their insights and knowledge never fail to amaze and educate me.

PS-Many thanks to chicoliving for enabling me to post here and to Tricia for hosting this fantastic website.

Thanks we really needed to hear this. :blowkiss:

 

[RiverRat]

Thanks we really needed to hear this. :blowkiss:

Oh, come on now.....don't you dare feel down and make me break out the dreaded :laugh: klonopin!

 

[coloradokares]

Oh, come on now.....don't you dare feel down and make me break out the dreaded :laugh: klonopin!

You are NOT kidding ROTFLM you know what Off. I had to take that while the chemical balaince in my brain all bubbled to the surface after the bleeds into the brain. They slowly introduced it and slowly phased it out. They said it made me less fearful during my recovery. Dreaded is right. I am proud to say I am medication free except for the Blood clot med Warafin. I will be on that the rest of my days. LOL

 

[thefragile7393]

I want to know what Brent knows. Still slogging through chapter 4 but already I'm curious as to what this man knows....and when JR dies I wonder if he'll talk. He's mentioned so much on this forum and I truely wish he would talk.