CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[Woodland]

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/cityn...-the-elizabeth-bain-murder-trial-the-timeline


June 19-20, 1990
Twenty-two-year-old Elizabeth Bain leaves home to check a schedule at the U. of T.'s Scarborough campus. When she doesn't return, her worried mother calls police.
June 22-24, 1990
Fears grow after the missing woman's car is discovered at an auto body shop not far from her home. A large bloodstain is ominously found in the backseat, but there's no sign of Bain. Cops immediately turn to her boyfriend, 24-year-old Robert Baltovich. He's questioned by detectives for hours, but some of his responses arouse their suspicions. There are massive searches for the absent woman during most of that summer, but her body is never found. Police conclude she's been murdered.

more at link...

Quote is post #3.

Maybe this has been discussed but, if her car was found 3 days after she went missing, with fresh blood (as per forensics) is that not an indicator that EB was held captive for 2+ days before being killed (either in her car or put in her car immediately after she was killed)?

 

[eyesonly]

yes, exactly, nice to see someone else reads it that way too. and that possibility does exist.
it's also possible that she bled in the car on the tues night prior to being removed from the car, and with the windows up and doors locked
in the summer time for 3 days and nights, that the blood was able to keep its dark reddish color without air getting at it.
we are attempting to get in contact with a forensics professional to get a more accurate answer on the possibilities.
also we have to leave room for the possibility that the article may have written something out of context with regard to the description
of the blood being too fresh to be in the car for 3 days.
the article was by michele mandel of the toronto sun and is a very long time professional reporter, so she is pretty right on with things, but
unless we can see the exact words on the notes, best to always leave a question open.

 

[Woodland]

Looking forward to an update on the blood in the car. Imo though, there was air in the car. I'm hoping CFS would have taken everything into consideration when advising Raybould his theory did not work forensically. Mind you, the reputation of CFS went due south in 1998 in a report based on poor practices dating back to the 80's.

 

[eyesonly]

it is reasonable to say there wasnt a deceased body in the car for 3 days during the summer. there would have been a tremendous unbearable stench, which was not present.
if she was killed in the park area and put in the car several hours later, there wouldn't have been a pool of blood in the car.
if she was killed in the park and put in the car couple days later, there wouldn't have been a pool of blood, but there should have been bug evidence of decomposition, which there wasn't.

so that leaves us with two scenarios as far as i can see. 1) she was dragged into the back of the car on the tues night she went missing while still bleeding, unconscious and/or in the process of dying, and she was removed from the car within a couple hours the same night.
2) she was held somewhere alive till thurs night, then dragged into the car, bleeding, unconscious, and/or in the process of dying, and removed from the car within a couple of hours.

any thoughts or more scenarios, please post.

btw, is everyone aware that port perry is where liz's brother MB had his boat docked.

 

[Woodland]

Interesting about the boat - a boat has crossed my mind in the last 24 hours for this case.

I am so getting my hands on that book asap. For the moment, I'm not so sure EB was at U of T Scarborough campus that afternoon or at the park. Not caring for the tennis instructor 'seeing someone that looked like EB' near the courts on 19 June 1990 about 5:45 pm - something I read this am of the few crumbs available on-line. Have not stumbled across info the instructor previously knew EB by sight.

EB told her mom she was going to check the tennis schedule at campus that day at about 4:00 pm - been there, heard that as a mom. Doesn't matter if your child is 'of age', if your child doesn't want you to know something, as in where they are going and who they will meet, you are unlikely to know about it for some time, if ever.

Also not caring for the 'sighting' of 'someone that looked like RB' driving a car that 'looked like EB's' on 22 June at Lake Scugogg either. Which means I can't buy, at the moment, someone saw EB on the 401 on 19 June, in her vehicle which was driven by someone else and she looked frightened and or was screaming at the passenger window. What did the person that claimed to see this do immediately after - call EB's mom/dad? Her mom reported her missing at 6:45 am on 20 June.

In the meantime eyesonly - can you provide any more detail on these 'sightings' as in when they initially came forward with the info? Including how many people claim to have seen her car parked in the field across from the auto body shop for a few days? Much appreciated if you can.

 

[eyesonly]

pt perry sighting, he called crime stoppers on july 1st, said driver was wearing a white flourescent T-shirt, blond to dirty blond. he was interviewed on november 15th, by a detective, and now it was a grey T-shirt with something colourful on it and at the preliminary it was a black or dark T-shirt with something bright on the front.
the detective who interviewed him was said by other witnesses to be pretty ruthless, basically tried to get you to change your story if it suited him.

the 401 sighting, he got the flyer in his mail, on friday august 24th, and told his boss on the monday he was taking tuesday off to go report what he saw.
the bartender was interviewed and backed up this guys story that he did come into the bar, back in june, was really shaken up and he did relate the story to her of what he had just experienced on the 401. he had no idea about this missing girl, let alone it was the girl he saw until he got the flyer, which he also recognized the car and license plate.
the guy knows from his bank statements and other things it was tues the 19th, and the bartender only worked tues and thursdays. he also asked to take a polygraph or go under
hpynosis if they wanted him too. and his story never changed as he recounted it from memory a few years later to RB's investigator.

yes, the tennis instructor sighting, she did know who liz was. she says she saw liz at 545pm because she took a water break for the kids and the fountain is right where the picnic tables are. i tend to believe that. she also says under hypnosis she saw rob there with her. however, the fountain is right where the stairs are that RB drove to and parked down near the tennis courts to take a look. and the tennis instructor says she took another water break an hour later after she saw liz which would be around 645pm, and all times aren't to the minute as she wasn't looking at a watch.
around 645-7 pm is when RB says he was down that way to see if liz was at the courts. so the police tried to put RB there at 545pm and said he was lying at being there an hour later.
however, i believe the instructor saw liz at 545pm and then saw RB an hour later at the next water break, and she didn't really know RB all the well so under hypnosis, she remembers seeing him but puts it at the same time as liz and actually sitting with her.
the workings of a human mind on an occasion you would not have any reason to ingrain anything deeply into your memory

 

[Woodland]

Thank-you eyesonly very, very, much. Imo -

Port Perry sighting - pffffft.

401 sighting following a flyer - pfffft.

The tennis instructor - need to know a lot more re- the instructor in fact new EB previously and knew who RB was. Tentatively - pfffft because have no idea when the instructor came forward. How did the instructor know EB? And RB? Hypnosis memory - pfffft.

If RB said he was looking for EB in that location, I could change my mind he was there. Not hearing that - yet. Many if's - need more.

Gotta get that book.

Thank-you eyesonly - I salute the depth of your caring. I get it.

 

[eyesonly]

as for her car being found across from the autobody place. i'm not sure how many employees saw the car, the one i know of for sure, worked in the office part and stated the car was in the same spot for 3 days, wed, thurs and fri. this person says the car didn't move, however, i would base that statement on the fact it was in the same spot parked amongst the other vehicles waiting to be fixed.
it's possible someone could have taken the car back out late at night and put it back in the same spot. not sure if that makes sense. i communicated with this person last year, and fully believe that the person saw the car there in the same spot from the wed to the fri.

as for the 401 sighting, by itself can be discounted, but in conjunction with the timeline of the other sighting at the autobody, both with a male in the drivers seat, both with something odd going on, that's pretty strong. neither would have known about each others sighting, and the fact that the police handed over all kinds of sightings that couldn't be possible, but specifically buried this one which is against the law, because it cooberates another sighting at a time that the police know for a fact that RB has solid alibi.
also liz didn't like anyone driving her car when she was in it. she hated the fact her youngest brother was using the car.

the book is out of print now, hopefully you will find one still hanging around somewhere, or at a used store.

 

[newone]

yes, exactly, nice to see someone else reads it that way too. and that possibility does exist.
it's also possible that she bled in the car on the tues night prior to being removed from the car, and with the windows up and doors locked
in the summer time for 3 days and nights, that the blood was able to keep its dark reddish color without air getting at it.
we are attempting to get in contact with a forensics professional to get a more accurate answer on the possibilities.
also we have to leave room for the possibility that the article may have written something out of context with regard to the description
of the blood being too fresh to be in the car for 3 days.
the article was by michele mandel of the toronto sun and is a very long time professional reporter, so she is pretty right on with things, but
unless we can see the exact words on the notes, best to always leave a question open.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/CYTZ/1990/6/20/WeeklyHistory.html

from what I could tell it was a bit chilly 69 degrees followed by 3 days of fog and rain ((20-22nd of June)) so would that high humidity help keep the state of the blood ''newish'' for lack of a better term?

 

[Woodland]

Had the same thought on the car eyesonly - if it was there for 3 days, it could have been moved during the night and returned to the same spot - the autobody shop employees would not know that. Imo, that would have been quite clever of someone.

Find this collection of articles very interesting - looking forward to comparing the info with books on the case (seems there is more than one).

http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightCanada/ar/t1925.htm

About 1/3 of the way down is the following (luckily it has numbers to follow).

[37] In the summer of 1990, Perz was employed as a tennis instructor at the Scarborough College Tennis Club. Perz described Ms. Bain, whom she had known for ten years, as a good acquaintance. Perz did not know the appellant and had never seen him prior to June 19, 1990. On Saturday, June 23, after learning that Elizabeth had disappeared, Perz remembered seeing her on Tuesday, June 19. She realized that she might have been the last person to see Elizabeth alive. Perz contacted the police and gave a statement to Detective Anthony Warr. In her statement, Perz said that she had seen Elizabeth on Tuesday sitting at a picnic table near the tennis courts sometime between 5:30 and 6:15 p.m.:

I have known Lisa [Elizabeth] for years - I am sure it was her - I am very positive. She was wearing pants - she was not wearing shorts - she had dark colours on - nothing bright - her hair was back - it was not in her face…There were other people at the table - she was sitting on the near side of the table facing the courts between two other people, and there was at least one other person on the other side of the table.

[38] Perz described the woman on Elizabeth’s right as being a white female. She had a very limited memory of the person sitting on Elizabeth’s left: “The one on the left could have been the [sic] man - he had dark hair - I believe he was white – I don’t remember what he was wearing…”. Perz added that the two females were “very plain looking”, that the group seemed to be university students and to be together, but that they were not talking, just watching. She told the police: “I think I could recognize one or more of these people if I saw them again. I have never seen any of them there before. That’s the first time I’ve seen Lisa all year.”

[39] Perz was unable to provide any further details about the man sitting beside Elizabeth. On July 1, 1990, Perz read an article about Elizabeth’s disappearance in the Toronto Sun. The article strongly suggested that the appellant was a suspect in Ms. Bain’s disappearance and included a photograph of the appellant. During the period after Elizabeth’s disappearance, Perz had also been speaking to members of the Bain family. She knew that they viewed the appellant as a suspect and that he was under surveillance.

[40] Perz spoke to the police again on July 8. She provided a more precise time when she had seen Elizabeth: “I now remember it was exactly 5:40 p.m.” However, Perz was unable to provide any further details describing the man who had been sitting beside Elizabeth. She added: “I am not sure if I would recognize a picture of the man sitting with her. He was on her left side.” Perz made no reference to the Toronto Sun photograph.

[41] On July 10, Perz agreed to be hypnotized by Dr. George Matheson. Detective Warr drove her to the hospital for the hypnosis session, a trip that took forty minutes. Detective Warr had the July 1 Toronto Sun article with the appellant’s photograph in the car. At trial, there was evidence that Perz saw this photograph on her way to Dr. Matheson’s office, however, that fact is disputed in fresh evidence led by the Crown on appeal.

[42] Under hypnosis, Perz elaborated significantly on her descriptions of Elizabeth’s clothing and the man seated beside her. She described the man as having short, straight dark hair and looking at Elizabeth:

Not caring much for the tennis instructor sighting either - jmo. MP is reported in this article to have known EB as an acquaintance for 10 years but did not know RB. MP heard about EB's disappearance four days later (in this article) - her car would have been found by then. I like the wording - MP realized she might have been the last person to see EB - she had seen newspaper articles and a pic of RB. After her initial report to police, and talking to EB's family, MP has an 'enhanced memory' of the exact time, then undergoes hypnosis for some reason.

Seems MP is the only one that puts EB with RB on campus that afternoon.

Not reliable, imo.

There is a timeline towards the end of this collection - the 401 sighting is left out - don't see how it would fit anyway. Seems EB had a class she was to attend that evening, so her presence at the campus at some point would be expected. RB claims to have seen her car but not her. He tried to see her after the class - and was seen in various places.

EB could have arrived at campus shortly after 4:00 pm and gone off with someone in another car - she had plenty of time before her class.

I know that 9 times out of 10 (just as a rough reference) the intimate partner is responsible for the disappearance and death of someone. Imo, RB just might be that 10th guy.

 

[eyesonly]

her car was seen down in a little lot where the park and walking paths are. it's a public place open to anyone. the car was not up in the campus
school lot.
it would take less than 5 mins to drive from that lot to the school.
It caught RB offguard seeing her car there because it was 645pm when he was coming by as per his statement, and she starts class at 7 and she had
already missed the last weeks class when she was home watching a movie with RB and a kid she took care of.
EB had told RB in a phone call during the day, as per RB statement, that she was going to have dinner with a her friend AC and she couldn't see him before school.
In EB's diary, she states herself on an earlier occasion that she lied to RB when she was out walking with another guy and told RB she was at her friends LP.
The friend AC that she told RB she was having dinner with that night stated she never had plans to have dinner with EB that night. So this leads to the belief she was intending on seeing a guy before class and lied to RB as she did before.
RB would have to be the most luckiest sob ever to come up with this story of what EB said to him, and then she herself admits to doing the same thing to him previously, if he was in fact responsible.
i think it's possible that she fully intended on going to class, but then she noticed RB in the area, and gets nervous and takes off from the guy she was with, and the guy says hey wtf is going on here, as he might not have know she had a boyfriend, and this may have set him off, and thus the reason she didn't make it to class.
had RB not have travelled by at that particular time, she prob would have made it to class and all would be well and we wouldn't be here talking about it today.
imo

 

[Woodland]

RB would have to be the most luckiest sob ever to come up with this story of what EB said to him, and then she herself admits to doing the same thing to him previously, if he was in fact responsible.

RSBM - good point.

EB having a class to attend at 7:00 pm certainly gives reason for her to be in the area after leaving home at 4:00 pm - still don't think she was at or near the tennis courts though. Wonder what, if anything, she said to her mother about dinner before her class.

If RB saw her vehicle near the park at 6:45 pm (apparently so did a jogger) then I'm guessing she had already been taken from the area in another vehicle.

Ordered 2 books today - 'No Claim To Mercy' and 'Young, Innocent And In Jail'. Looking forward to comparing the info.

Also looking forward to more info about EB's car and it's location at various times. A jogger claims to have seen the car near the park at about 6:45 pm on the 19th, but a pedestrian also claims to have seen it at the body shop with a man and a woman arguing in it. Arguing in the parking lot of the body shop? It will be interesting to learn when these people came forward.

 

[eyesonly]

a lady went to the park with her mom for a walk, she parked in the same little lot, and the fingers on the door caught her eyes, this was before RB got there.
not sure if you know the area well, but it is reasonable she would be near the tennis courts. the location of the body shop if you see the area actually is reasonable, because it is a road you take when coming off the 401, along the kingston road exit, and just past the highland creek bridge. it's a small road, not alot on that stretch of it, so not very many if anyone would be around.
the guy on the 401 says he got ahead of the car he saw, and pulled over just by brock rd i believe, and waited for them to go by so he could follow them and give them a piece of his mind. he says that all of a sudden he couldn't see the girl then she was leaning on the guys shoulder. so he waited for them and he never saw them go by him so he assumes they got off the highway.
which coincides with the timing of the auto body sighting if they got back on the westbound lanes and headed back toward the area.
and the fact the car was found basically if the person backed it up and down the street a hundred feet and into the spot. which makes one think if possibly his vehicle was there.
it is absolutely possible that the driver of the car is not the person that caused her disappearance. but if that was the case, it would be strange for that person not to come forward and explain what happened as far as he was concerned.
the lady witness says she locked eyes with the girl who opened the door attempting to get out, and swears it was EB and described what she was wearing.

the second book you mentioned, Young innocent and in jail, is just a rehash of derek finkles book "no claim to mercy". finkles book is a very good book.
will be great to hear your views on the stuff when you read it.

and yes, very good reason for EB to be in the area before class, but not expected by RB because of the so called dinner date with her friend. she could have actually walked up to class from the park, and the tennis area, as i have done the walk. only thing is she wouldn't leave her car unattended especially that the windows were down.
one interesting thing, the lady who saw the car there cause of the fingers, took a peek in and saw pack of cigs on the passenger seat, and when RB looked in he didn't mention anything about the cigs, but described everything else in the car. so that tends to say that someone went back to the car between the time the lady looked in and RB got there.
there is also a report from a man walking his dog, that he says he believes he saw EB walking at a fast pace by him over the bridge, she would be heading in the direction of the campus, i believe this around the time RB was getting there, will check out the exact time as per the book, so it's possible maybe that she spotted RB driving by and slowing down and she took off so as not to have to be confronted by him on what she was doing there, and again, if she was with another guy, he would have that wtf is going on attitude.

 

[eyesonly]

snively, any more posts to add, keep it going, you have already given some ideas to pursue.

 

[Woodland]

Having trouble picturing what 'fingers on the door' means - then she peeked in the car? Did she take a peek later when no one was in the car? Near the tennis courts is different from sitting at a picnic table in full view of the tennis courts, imo.

Fwiw, now I really don't believe the 401 guy. One report says he saw a woman in distress - looked frightened and appeared to be screaming at the passenger window. So this guys pulls over, on the side of the 401 no less (most know how dangerous that is if your vehicle is not disabled), and wants to follow them and give them a 'piece of his mind'? Had time on his hands I guess. Have seen many an a-hole on a 400 series highway in my time, but never pulled over to try and follow them. I would have obtained a plate number, if possible, and called LE if the situation seemed dire though.

If the 401 guy 'got ahead' of the vehicle, then he was behind it to begin with. Plate number? Then the vehicle was driven back to the park area in time for 2 people to see it? Or to the body shop? Can't be both. Backing up 100 feet is calling attention to oneself - if others are around.

And then a guy saw EB walking over a bridge during this time? Was this after the wild 401 ride? She didn't scream while walking over the bridge? It's all a little busy in a short time frame to be believable, imo.

 

[eyesonly]

At work right now will give better times when I get home tonight.
First Lady parks and looks at/in her car, then rb comes by and looks
In her car then rb drives down to tennis court area. Around this time
She is seen walking alone at a quick pace head down across a little bridge down
In the valley park. So this is approx 7ish. Then rb drives to campus parking lot
And goes into work out. EB is seen on the 401 between 730 and 8 and then at
Auto body around 8-830.
Auto body area is fairly secluded, you would have to see it, you would come up that
Street off the highway way, and the little lot in the valley park
Would only be like a minute or two from the auto body.
So maybe the original destination was back down to the lot in the park
And for some reason maybe the driver wanted to pull in there to finish
An arguement because it was fairly secluded.
Think about it. The car was sitting literally one or two mins from where everyone
Was searching and nobody went down that street in the three days till it was
Found that tells you how much the road is used by the public

 

[Woodland]

So after walking along the bridge at a quick pace, away from her vehicle, EB ends up back in her vehicle for a wild ride on the 401, which ended in the body shop lot. No one saw or heard anything between the bridge and her getting back to her vehicle? Even though people were around? EB didn't call out for help then? She was late for class by then.

Meanwhile LE stood by EB was deceased by 7:00 pm. They must not have believed the 401 guy either. Pretty sure I read he showed up in court wanting to be heard even though he was not called upon to testify. And did not testify?

Can't help but think the real story is quite different.

 

[eyesonly]

Well woodland I think you just solved this case.
All we need to do is just eliminate all the witness
Sightings and whatever is left no matter how improbable
Must be the truth.
It was right I'm front of us all along omg I can't believe we
Didn't see it.
EB was abducted by aliens, and taken to their
Home planet for experimental purposes.

So freaking simple, thanks woodland, now I can lay
this to rest and move on to something else.

 

[Woodland]

2 people reported seeing EB's vehicle in the same lot at about the same time - so far I do believe that fwiw.

It is difficult to defend the rest imo. Many sightings, many locations, much going on, but only one person saw each of these various moves between Scarborough, Ajax and Lake Scuggog, and came forward after reading various reports or talking to the family. That's usually what happens.

 

[eyesonly]

Sorry that sighting is no good either because one of those
individuals is the guy that killed her right around that time
So there is no way the killer himself is going to put himself in the
same area and at the same time where she was killed at her car no
less. So that puts that sighting down to one person so no good
nada.

Which brings us back to the only possible conclusion,
Alien abduction. Sherlock Holmes couldn't have done any
better woodland. Maybe you will get a book and movie
deal out of this.