CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
It gets confusing when the replies to a particular response get out of order. lol

I do think the E mentioned in the diary and EG mentioned in the Supreme Court document I mentioned are in fact one and the same. Definitely the same first names, they knew each other, and I don't believe in coincidences. EG was a sandy blonde guy as well. Still is judging by the picture of him I found from 2007 with him at Muskoka Woods.

I only took a course in Criminal Justice and another in Offender Profiling, but I'm sure not a professional by any means, and would never purport to be, but if you would like my opinion on narcissistic behaviour, then yes, I would put the money making thoughts down to that. To each their own, but I think at the time he made the statement to the guard he was still not assured he'd be declared innocent. Pretty cocky behaivour for somebody who hadn't been in trouble with the law before. People I know who have been arrested for the first time are a lot more contrite than that to be making statements of that kind. Then again, RB had been in prison for a while at that point waiting for his trial so maybe people's views do change.

I think a lot goes towards what amount of belief you put into profiling people in regards to the narcissistic behaivour, but the jealousy RB surely must have felt is a great motivator. I don't believe for a second he didn't know or at least didn't suspect she was seeing other guys.
 
as for the car sightings, the lady described liz to a T. as they locked eyes. and in relation to the location to where the car was found is very strong.
the car sighting on the 401, he positively identified liz as the person he locked eyes with, he described the car, and wrote down the license plate number.
raybould tried to discount the sighting cause the plate number was one digit off. which is actually more reliable than if he had it perfect, because in the
situation he was in, it is absolutely realistic to get a digit off a plate trying to remember it, till you can stop and get it written down.

put both sightings together from 2 indepentant sources within an hour of each other, both with her in the passenger seat, and there would be no cold case
investigator that would deny the strength of them.
it's easy to discount these things when one is looking for guilt of a person, and not looking for the guilty person.

EG was not a blond person, at least the EG i am talking about. and i agree 100% with your take on the bernardo stuff.

The EG that was RB's friend is not the EG that is in the diary. both have same initials. i will message you the other EG's name.
 
I agree the police can certainly get tunnel vision when looking at a suspect. I also think far too many on this site are trying to link things into being a serial killer all the time and not just this case with either Col. RW or PB, but site wide in all cases. 16% of murders are committed by family members and 64% by someone the victim knows. I think the thought it may be a serial killer is more exciting or something to some. Kind of hope I'm wrong, but I've read enough on here in all different threads and the serial killer thread is way too prevalent.

In this case Col. RW had nothing to do with it since he wasn't even in the province at the time.

PB didn't do it either. The tie in RB's lawyers tried to use to PB with the DuMaurier cigarettes and 102.1 on the radio are simply spitballing and they even know that. Probably one of the top 2 cigarette brands in Toronto at the time along with Players, and smoking wasn't banned then, and Liz even smoked them herself occasionally. The same with a very popular radio station that a lot of people in their 20's at the time listened to. To this day, many still do. Nothing here at all.

As for PB being questioned he denied knowing her. At best they may have met 5 years or something briefly at a church or an event of some kind, but they did not keep up a correspondence in any way, shape or form that anyone can find. Besides, PB deep down knows he's never getting out, even if he dreams our useless Canadian justice system grants him parole in 25 years. It's not going to happen. No way. No how. He knows it. So copping to one more murder wouldn't make a difference to him. In Canada charges are served concurrent, so in effect, you would do the same time whether you killed 1 or 100. And you are always eligible for parole after 25 years. Every person. It doesn't mean you will get parole, but it has to be heard, and along with media, police, the public and victims rights groups there is no way PB is ever getting parole.

You are correct about being damned if you do and damned if you don't participate in the search in RB's case, but I will stand behind what I said about RB being too helpful. I will trust the detectives on their thoughts about RB's demeanour. They are trained to read people and I think they got that part right. There are lots of undisputed statements by RB to the police that do support this, but it could also be because he was terribly upset and nervous. Even the police will admit that this is just their opinion, but judges allow this as admissible evidence because the police are trained in this aspect.

I am aware about her brother being exactly as you mention eyesonly and totally agree. A bit of a strange cat. I never knew RB at the time much more than to say hello, but really didn't find him a bad person at all, just a bit arrogant and had something of that control freak about him. My timeline of the body being moved the same night, and MB's car being back at either 10pm as MB says or just after 9pm as RB says, doesn't give MB enough time to move the body and be back home in time.
 
what if MB was the person driving liz's car, so he left his car at home, because they often went to classes in the same car.
Mrs Bain testified that MB was not home that night. So only one saying MB was home at 10 was MB himself. so we have no timeline for MB
at all that night. He apparently stayed at his girlfriends all night, but she doesnt remember that, and he came home around 6am on the wed morning.

and we have to really take into consideration all the lying the detectives did, and the hiding of witness sightings, and the fact that everything
RB stated that night he did, has actually come to light that he was fully truthful.
we cant now say, well, maybe he killed her later, because as you stated, the detectives are pretty skilled in their job, and they knew rob's alibi
was good for after 715pm, so he had to have killed her before in their minds for him to be the killer.

if you watch as many shows as i do, and it appears you do, this is a text book wrongful conviction case. we cant say someone is guilty, then say
well he said this so it shows his guilt, he helped too much, that shows his guilty, if he didnt killer her at this time then it was at this time because he killed
her so it has to be at some time, he is a narcisist so that shows his guilt.

problem here is there is not one single piece of evidence, nothing, so when you hid sightings, and statements which prove the suspect was telling the truth,
it creates the guilt personna in societies mind, and that's all the det need as well as the families backing.

RB's personallity may be as you say, but i knew him as a kid and through high school, and i can tell you he never had any involvement ever with the cops
and if this was his first ever situation with the cops, and as serious as it was, they would have cracked him like and egg for an omlette. he has never been in trouble in his life, so he would have to be the super hero of narcisists and a true pyschotic to pull this off., IMO
 
when you get my pm regarding the two EG's, let me know if there is any info you specifically have that shows
the E she was walking with was RB;s friend as per the R. v. Baltovich, and not the EG she mentions in the diary.
did you know RB's friend EG, and he told you he was seeing her or something like that?
 
regarding the R. v. Baltovich that you mentioned. guess it depends on how you read that, if you are reading that with guilty in mind or
are reading it as a neutral thinker.

"10] Mr. Nancoo also stated that on June 25, 1990, six days after Ms. Bain’s disappearance, Robert Baltovich and Eric Gostick approached him separately at the Rec Centre during his workout. He claimed that they had asked him whether he could confirm that Mr. Baltovich had been in the weight room on June 19, 1990, at around 7:10 p.m. He claimed that he had told them that he thought it was earlier, and that they asked him not to tell the police unless he was sure and also not to tell the police they had spoken to him."

at this point, RB knew he was being looked at as a suspect, so one could say he was making sure on his own alibi. they simply asked him not to tell the police
what the time was unless he was sure, and that's understandable. they didn't try to sway the times imo. and prob didn't want the police know they talked to him for fear of getting in trouble maybe because RB had never had any encounters with the police and didn't know what could or could not do in talking to people.
RB's friend here, not being the one in the diary, has no reason to be backing RB up if he knew RB was guilty. I don't think anyone would, unless they were tied together in some kind of crime ring or drug ring or something like that which we know is not the case.
 
now, if you have any specific info, that it was RB's friend listed in the above quote that was calling and seeing liz behind RB's back,
that could definitely change things, but liz specifically mentions the other EG by full name in her diary.
 
Part of the reason I question the time of the killing was something reported in the Toronto Star in 2004; "Crown counsel Gillian Roberts told the court yesterday the "classroom evidence" still doesn't account for Baltovich's whereabouts earlier in the evening, and argued he could have still killed Bain between 7 and 7:15 p.m. or between 8 and 9 p.m. A witness last reported seeing him at the campus gym at 8:30, she said." He certainly had time between 8:30 and 9:00 as well as earlier between 7 and 7:15.

No matter what RB did have the means (jealousy), method (obviously everybody is guessing here, but sure looks like trauma from getting hit with something, but I guess it could have been a knife too) and opportunity. Where the police completely got it wrong was thinking the body was moved a couple of nights later. No way. It was moved that night. This too has a very plausible explanation, that I think it more believable that what the Crown put forward in 1992. "Roberts also suggested Baltovich could have crawled out a window of his basement bedroom in the early morning hours of June 22, 1990 - when his mother says he was at home sleeping - and driven Bain's body north..." The Crown still believes the Scugog area. I still think he had help and somebody else moved the body, but it sure looks like it was moved that night.

Where I don't buy the MB idea is his means. At best I guess it could be a sibling spat with her accidentally getting hurt obviously badly, but I don't believe he would go as far as hiding his own sister's body, especially considering in this scenario it would almost certainly be down to an accident.

RB did strike me as being somebody who thought he was smarter than everyone else.
 
Actually when I read that section 10 in the R. v. Baltovich I mentioned it got me thinking more about EG being involved. I always thought he did, but it was only a hunch and I thought that over 20 years ago. Just like I thought somebody else had moved the body.

Now if you were being investigated would you be running around trying to firm up an alibi with some guy in a gym and obviously asking a buddy to do the same, knowing full well this would be reported back to the police? Either they would have to be incredibly stupid or naive or truly believe they could get away with it by intimidating a witness. Now the guy never claimed to be threatened but I'm sure he wouldn't feel too secure with two separate people hounding him. The biggest thing that jumps at me that shows that RB and EG knew full well what they were doing and that they can't just pass it off as naivety, is that they both asked the guy not to tell the police they spoke to him. I don't believe that EG was helping out RB just out of the goodness of his heart.
 
if RB had the opportunity between 830 and 900, because his whereabouts are accounted for up till then, where was liz up till that time
because she wasn't at home or at school, so how would RB know where to find her.
liz was in a car with a male driving her vehicle she was the passenger, and screaming for help on the 401 around 730 to 800. so she is
fearing for her life with one guy then her bf comes along and happens to find her and kills her. really?

and yes, RB was super super naive, so there is your answer for why he approached nancoo.
 
He found her car once driving around looking for her, and if he didn't kill her then the first time, then he found her later between 8:30 and 9:00 right where he had seen her car earlier. I wouldn't be surprised she was with somebody and he confronted her. Not that hard to go back to the last location he had admitted to seeing her car. They had both obviously been around the area in the park a lot so it's not a stretch that he simply walked the same area and paths they had also walked at other times.

The reason I discount the guy who saw her on the 401 was there was a report put out by the police that Liz was missing and to be on the lookout for her car, including the licence plate numbers. I think this witness made up his story for whatever reason (some people just like to be part of things) and simply recorded the licence plate info he had seen in the papers and reports and decided months later it was time to become a bit of a star (in his mind?) witness. Either way it is, the plate info had been published when they were looking for Liz and her car.

If RB was that naive it still does not explain EG's actions with Nancoo. He was clearly asked to do this by RB, because how else would EG get the information about Nancoo being a witness in the first place? I don't totally buy that anybody would be naive enough to believe that asking a witness about their testimony (whether to change it or firm up the time) wouldn't get back to the police. Especially when both RB and EG asked Nancoo not to tell the police they were talking to him. That's not naivety, that's deceit.
 
At this point, the only truly important thing is to locate E.B's body.imo.
 
absolutely dotr, hopefully by talking it out we can come up with something. it is crucial though to determine who was responsible because that
also helps determine an area her body may be located in. hopefully someone else will see something in what we are talking about and ring a bell
as well or give them ideas to post here.
 
"If RB was that naive it still does not explain EG's actions with Nancoo. He was clearly asked to do this by RB, because how else would EG get the information about Nancoo being a witness in the first place?" quote from snively.

i believe they asked nancoo on the sunday following the disappearance. EG had talked to a det before that and saw rob at the school and informed him he was a suspect from how the det talked to EB. So RB looked around for people he thought he remember from the tues night, saw nancoo and the rest we know. It appears RB was unaware he was actually a suspect till EG told him, so neither of them knew nancoo was a witness, i'm not sure if nancoo had even talked to the police that early on. So RB was just looking for people he thought were there, that remembered him there and at the time.
 
RB states that he had a shower at 830pm then headed up to catch EB after her class.

snively this next part is said with all due respect. you say RB thought he was smarter than the police, that this shows he was a narcisist, and therefore
leads to the fact of his guilt.
now you have stated that " the cops got it all wrong " in referring to their timeline. in saying that, you are stating that you are smarter than the cops,
and therefore you are narcisistic, and therefore if you havent already killed someone, you surely will.

regarding the 830-900 timeline you are now trying to RB kill her. so, he finds her, kills her, and leaves her in the bushes or woods, and makes it back to her class before or at 9pm to be seen on the floor above her class.

as for the 401 witness, i believe he came forward within weeks of the incident when he seen the first flyer. his story was checked out, and the establishment he went too instead of going to work, the bartender/waiter there was interviewed and backed up that he was there at that night and talked about what he had seen. he was really shaken up about the incident.
as for your asertion that a witness coming forward months later would be unreliable as per your words, i do agree with you there as in the witness david dibbens from the pt perry area who came forward months later after the car and the fingers were splashed all over the place, as well the person driving him said it didn't happen, and his own family said he called just to get the money. so in your own words, a witness coming forward months later is unreliable and should not be believed.

i would really like to know what it is about RB that people need him to be guilty, whatever it takes no matter how unreasonable it seems. people need him
to be guilty more than they need the truth to come to light.
 
The more I thought about the witness coming forward months later about seeing the car on the 401 the more questions I had about it that are definitely what someone with the police must have also thought. Her picture and the picture of the car and the original missing persons report and to be on the look out for the car with the licence plate info was released to the media and published throughout Toronto. It's way too easy for someone to have seen the picture (it was also on the news pretty much every night all that summer) and to have also seen the report with the licence info. Doesn't mean the guy is wrong, but you certainly do have to question the validity of the statement. While traffic cameras were not installed on the 401 until early 1991, there were still a lot of businesses around the area that had cameras. Definitely not like there is today, but there must have been some, and you like to think the police followed up on this report and checked, but it is possible they didn't. All things considered it is one witness statement that I just can't buy.

The same can be said about the person who saw two people fighting in a car across from 3r Auto. She was never able to positively ID either individual nor the car itself despite saying she "locked eyes" with the girl who got out of the car. Just the location and somebody who she sees in the dark that looks like a brunette and a car parked in that area. Well it is an auto body shop and there were always cars parked there, plus it's 53m from the intersection to the location of 3r and the sighting. I don't recall the street lighting in the area at the time, but it's not the most well lit area to this date and I'm not sure how close she got, but clearly it wasn't close enough for an ID. Don't forget it's a dark area beside a park, and you wonder how many young couples would "rendezvous" in that specific area.
 
I'm too ugly to be a narcissist. lol My basis of RB being labeled that are the police reports on the issue and I remember reading a profile at one point.

My original timeline had her being killed between the time RB saw her car and the time he was seen in the gym. Off the top of my head that puts it around 6:45 to 7:15 and I discount the two witnesses who said they her at 3r autobody and the guy who saw her on the 401. I also think the body was moved that night mostly because it doesn't make sense for it to be moved 2 nights later that the police say since if you were coming from a police interview which you are clearly a suspect would you really go back to move a body? I think most people would be thinking that surely the police would be tailing them at that point.

In 2004, Crown counsel Gillian Roberts told court she believed the murder happened between 7 and 7:15 and also that the body was moved that same night when RB slipped out of his basement apartment. Clearly the police at that point and the Crown also had reservations about their original timeline of the body being moved 2 nights later so it's not just me that thinks this.

I agree with you eyesonly about the sighting in Port Perry. I was never terribly convinced with that myself and had heard the same story about D just doing it for money. I'd always wondered how the police came up with the distance they estimate the car traveled from it's last fill up. Unless the odometer reading was actually recorded by Liz or whoever filled up the car the last time before she went missing, then the estimate could be obviously way off for some many reasons.

My reasoning for writing any of this, isn't just to find anybody guilty but my also my question of the distance traveled so the suspected area of the body being located could be expanded. Only the police can definitively answer that question.
 
the 7-715 timeline is not going to work due to the forensics. first RB was spotted in the parking lot on his way to the gym at 715 so you have to back
track from there the time it takes to get to the park, time to get to the area where he supposedly killed her and the time to kill her in broad daylight
with nobody seeing or hearing any thing.
if EB was killed at 7-715 then put in the car hours later, the body would have stopped pumping blood very soon after death and therefore would not be
bleeding several hours later. in regards to the amount of blood that was pooled in the back floor behind the drivers seat.
as well the blood was still dark red which the forensics say was fresher than had a several hours deceased body been put in for transport.
what the forensics state by the blood, and lack of odour, and the absence of insect stuff due to decomposing body, is that she was bleeding freshly
as she was pulled into the back seat. either barely alive or just deceased, not hours or days later.
 
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/23/new-allegations-in-rob-baltovich-case

"But the two experts told Reybould that the forensics didn’t fit his theory or his timeline, according to the new allegations.

There was too much blood behind the driver’s seat of Bain’s car for someone killed three days earlier; its dark red colour suggested fresher blood than the decomposed, bluish-red colour they should have found if she’d been murdered days before; and the lack of a distinctive, pungent odour in the car was inconsistent with a body decomposing for several days."
 
i believe they just took the remaining gas in the tank and subtracted it from a full tank and then determined how far the car could go out and
back on the missing gas.
they don't know exactly what the gas level was on the tues night, it could have been very close to what it was when found and not a full tank.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 136 more.
Total: 4,273 (members: 137, guests: 4,136)

Online statistics

Members online
137
Guests online
4,136
Total visitors
4,273
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,632
Messages
17,972,181
Members
228,846
Latest member
therealdrreid
Back
Top