CANADA Canada - Nicole Morin, 8, Toronto, 30 July 1985

[dotr]

Police search for remains of Nicole Morin, possible links to Christine Jessop case

There could definitely be a link to Hoover. He was a telephone technician at the time (a cable installer), so would go out to various jobs. Wonder if the telecom company he worked for (Eastern Independent Telecom) would have any records of his whereabouts on the day Nicole went missing. An article I came across also mentioned that cameras were being installed the day after Nicole went missing - that's huge and shouldn't be overlooked! Who was aware of this? As a cable installer, could Hoover have been involved with this type of job? Really hope police are looking at all of this.

Welcome to Ws @TOSleuth75, thanks for chiming in!

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Wouldn’t LE have been obliged to check into any/all men who had been in the area at the times of these crimes? One would hope so.

IMO that would be impossible. How could LE even know every single solitary person in either one of these Apt towers for that specific time period, this was a complex of buildings, not just one building, they shared the pool.

And it would not be the first time a woman took a child to supply for her male partner.

If no resident or other person interviewed did not see any "service/maintenance/cablers" onsite who would tell the detectives so they would have reason to investigate him?

My curiosity on this case is still high, The article in post #580 is a wealth of new info but confuses me because I once took private investigator training in YYZ, our instructor was a retired undercover Toronto police officer from the division investigating her disappearance and he used this case as an example of undercover work done by LE.

They had a suspect, they heavily investigated him, and used undercover (UC) policing for months on him, which costs a lot of money, and to get undercover work approved by a judge, they had to have hard evidence on this suspect.

How this person became a suspect I have no information on, from what the retired UC/LE said they could not prove anything without finding Nicole first and the suspect was watched from afar for years that followed when the UC work was no longer funded, but privacy laws forbid LE to do much more than that.

This suspect/person had a graphic's type of company in the GTA and a "cabin" north of the city. That does not sound like C.Hoover but would not be the first time in this era that LE was taken off the true path of facts and truth and ignored details that did not fit the facts because they truly believed they knew the culprit.

I believed the instructor when he said his conversations with this suspect while he was undercover were chilling. In the last conversation he had with him, he brought up the disappearance and said LE thought he might know more, his reply to the UC/LE was "they cannot prove anything if they do not have a body". The UC/LE felt that was an admission, it was an odd response to the conversation.

I wonder what happened to this suspect? have they been totally exonerated now? was this C.Hoover or someone that knew C.Hoover?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Would it be impossible for LE to learn the name of the phone/television companies who service the building? The other service companies who work at the building? The male residents of the building? Males who frequented the pool? At least that’s a start. I cannot let myself believe that this case unsolvable.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Would it be impossible for LE to learn the name of the phone/television companies who service the building? The other service companies who work at the building? The male residents of the building? Males who frequented the pool? At least that’s a start. I cannot let myself believe that this case unsolvable.

Disappearance of Nicole Morin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The timeframe they will need to ask about access in those buildings is from 10:30 am ish - 3 pm when the Mother was certain her daughter was missing and not just temporarily unaccounted for at 11 am ish.

LE would also need to ask all residents at the time if they had a phone/cable/telecom etc. (Bell, Rogers) service appointment booked that day, (Or a visitor of any kind), the building may use certain ones but the residents would be free to use anyone or thing? did the service person keep the appointment what time did they leave, do we know they actually left the building? where did they park? They could potentially have 100's of POI in that area that day.

And if it was a busy moving day, I agree, she could be grabbed, held for a short time in an apt, and killed in the building before being removed in furniture. Or take alive in a moving van - but IMO moving vans/trucks normally have more than 1 mover to a vehicle, although this would be a great distraction so much going on in the area unless hidden in furniture can not envision it being a mover.

IMO if she was taken from within the building, she was taken on a last-second decision, a whim, and via stair or elevator - from 20th floor or lobby - directly to the underground parking and long gone by the time anyone was suspicious that something was wrong.

 

[JDG]

^^^^ just to be clear, I didn’t think it was a mover but someone who was moving that day and either wrapped her in a carpet or placed her into a small freezer.

July 30th was the major moving day in Toronto in those days.

I even called 222tips to alert them re moving vans everywhere.

About two hours later, they put up barriers by that apartment complex.

To this day, I feel that that is what happened to Nicole.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OK, that makes it sound impossible.

I’ve lived in a Toronto condo and there are always regular workers around. Gardeners. House keeping staff. Management who will open doors, with permission, for TV and phone people. Canada Poste. I guess LE cannot ask these regulars if they saw a truck belonging to a worker from elsewhere? That’s really sad.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

^^^^ just to be clear, I didn’t think it was a mover but someone who was moving that day and either wrapped her in a carpet or placed her into a small freezer.

July 30th was the major moving day in Toronto in those days.

I even called 222tips to alert them re moving vans everywhere.

About two hours later, they put up barriers by that apartment complex.

To this day, I feel that that is what happened to Nicole.

Wow Thank you, you were there then I will go with your gut and I agree someone took her quickly. What time did you call tips?

 

[JDG]

Not sure of the time.

 

[photographer4]

Wouldn’t LE have been obliged to check into any/all men who had been in the area at the times of these crimes? One would hope so.

They were obliged to check into Hoover when Christine Jessop vanished, but for some reason, they overlooked him for all those years until DNA finally revealed him.

 

[dotr]

''Feb 13, 2023 24 Shades of Blue
The Toronto Police Service has launched a unique, six-episode series of the 24 Shades of Blue podcast with Obie & Ax. Featuring Detective Sergeant Stephen Smith and Detective Shona Patterson of Missing Persons, this series will highlight a historic missing persons case during each episode. The sixth episode of 24 Shades of Blue – Missing Persons Edition – Season Two, features the case of 8-year-old Nicole Morin, hosted by Andy O'Brien. On July 30, 1985, Nicole Morin left her parent's apartment to meet a friend in the building's lobby for a swim. She never met with her friend and has been missing ever since.''

 

[dotr]

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[photographer4]

I am still here, and still thinking quite often about Nicole. I was just considering that it was a major moving day the day she disappeared. I wonder if someone who was moving that day (either in or out of the building), saw her in the elevator and had something on them that they could stuff her into? Did someone just walk off the elevator at some other floor with her concealed in some way and then just wait awhile before leaving with her?

We don't know if Nicole's building had the lobby on a camera feed that was displayed to residents via their tv sets - but that was a popular thing back then! I can remember visiting friends in apt buildings and watching the lobby with them on their TV to see when other friends had arrived. Is it possible someone took Nicole into their own unit / the unit of a friend / a unit from which someone was moving in or out of and watched on TV to see that the lobby was clear before exiting the building with her somehow concealed? If they went and turned on the tv right away, they'd probably have seen the friend waiting for Nicole in the lobby. Could it be they waited for that friend to go away and then just casually walked out with Nicole somehow concealed??

The police weren't even called until hours later because Nicole's mother didn't seem to take it seriously when the friend buzzed back up to say Nicole hadn't arrived yet. She must have assumed Nicole found her friend eventually because she didn't seem concerned until much later in the day.

I think someone did exactly this. Someone silenced this kid in the elevator, got her into an apt, watched the lobby and then concealed her and exited the area with her as quickly as possible.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

The moving day situation sounds plausible. So much commotion. Doors opened, people coming and going, trucks parked up close to the doors. Possible.

 

[JSolt1210]

I am still here, and still thinking quite often about Nicole. I was just considering that it was a major moving day the day she disappeared. I wonder if someone who was moving that day (either in or out of the building), saw her in the elevator and had something on them that they could stuff her into? Did someone just walk off the elevator at some other floor with her concealed in some way and then just wait awhile before leaving with her?

Great observation! Most people choose to move at the end of the month, and she disappeared on July 30, so maybe there's a connection here.

However, I imagine that anyone moving out so soon after the disappearance a) would have raised concern and suspicion back then, especially for police, and b) we would know about such a person by now, almost 40 years later.

A person moving into the building might seem less suspicious, but then how would that person know that Nicole would be alone, unless he just took the chance? Also, would Nicole have willingly gone with a stranger as opposed to a neighbor she'd seen for years?

I still think the simplest explanation is a chance encounter on the elevator between Nicole and a neighbor she knew—not necessarily knew well, but enough to go willingly with him. Maybe he asked for help with his groceries, something which I think most of us would consider harmless and would help out with, even for neighbors we see all the time but don't really talk to or know well.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

How about the notion of someone moving IN? Hiding in plain sight? They just moved in so no one knows them but they are paying their bills so all is well.

 

[JSolt1210]

How about the notion of someone moving IN? Hiding in plain sight? They just moved in so no one knows them but they are paying their bills so all is well.

I absolutely still think this is a possibility that can't be ruled out. Most criminals want to flee the scene of their crimes, so someone moving in would have the perfect cover.

But ultimately I think this theory leaves more questions than answers. If this was someone was moving in, then Nicole wouldn't have seen him before—at least not for a long time. Would she willingly have gone off with a stranger?

Maybe he surprised and overpowered her in the elevator. But there were no signs of a struggle. According to the Wikipedia article, Nicole "carried a plastic bag containing a white T-shirt, green and white shorts, suntan lotion, hairbrush, a peach-coloured blanket and a purple beach towel." I don't think a kidnapper could manage to subdue a young girl and clean up all the stuff that would've been presumably thrown around in the struggle.

Also, no neighbors reported screaming. Maybe the elevator muffled any noise, but they eventually had to get out. No one heard any screams outside the elevator, either in the halls or the lobby?

That's why I think that Nicole knew, or at least recognized, the person who took her. If this person asked her for help, Nicole would've taken her plastic bag with her, leaving no evidence behind.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

OK, so let’s say it was someone Nicole knew to see. Someone who was a frequent visitor to the building. This person liked the building and when an apartment became available, he moved in. And hides I plain sight. Nicole wasn’t a total stranger to him. She knew him to see. Maybe he lured her I to his new apartment in the building?

 

[photographer4]

Great observation! Most people choose to move at the end of the month, and she disappeared on July 30, so maybe there's a connection here.

However, I imagine that anyone moving out so soon after the disappearance a) would have raised concern and suspicion back then, especially for police, and b) we would know about such a person by now, almost 40 years later.

A person moving into the building might seem less suspicious, but then how would that person know that Nicole would be alone, unless he just took the chance? Also, would Nicole have willingly gone with a stranger as opposed to a neighbor she'd seen for years?

I still think the simplest explanation is a chance encounter on the elevator between Nicole and a neighbor she knew—not necessarily knew well, but enough to go willingly with him. Maybe he asked for help with his groceries, something which I think most of us would consider harmless and would help out with, even for neighbors we see all the time but don't really talk to or know well.

No one would blink an eye if the couple in X apt moved out on July 30, would they? That nice young couple who've just bought a house and gave their notice two months ago per their lease (made up situation, but you get my point here). Honestly? Nothing would surprise me in this particular case. Nothing at all.

 

[JSolt1210]

Another theory just occurred to me! And I apologize if it's already been mentioned—I don't remember all 30 pages of this thread lol.

What if it wasn't a neighbor that lived in the complex, but a person—or even a couple—who routinely brought kids over to Nicole's mother's daycare? After all, according to the Wikipedia article, that's the reason why Jeanette (Nicole's mom) couldn't immediately search for her daughter, because she was occupied with the small children entrusted to her care—meaning her daycare had already opened. (Do we know at what time?)

Whoever used this daycare would've become familiar with the building layout. Residents could've also let him in after recognizing him as a regular visitor. He may have noticed Nicole while bringing his (or someone else's) children over. He may not have interacted directly with Nicole, so he'd still be a stranger to her, but after seeing him interact with her mom, Nicole could've been comfortable enough around him. If it was a couple, they could've presented as loving parents, thereby gaining more trust.

I'm assuming a distraught Jeanette did not re-open her daycare business in the days following Nicole's disappearance and the ensuing investigation. This, then, would provide the perfect "out" for the kidnapper(s) because, if all he did was use the daycare, now he has no reason to go back there, so it wouldn't be suspicious if no one ever saw him again.

From what I've read, it seems like LE has done their due diligence with the investigation, but I wonder how far this angle was pursued.

 

[photographer4]

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I’d love to know more about Nicole and who she was and what she was like! We know so little about her! I’d like to know as well whether she had ever met her half brother before she vanished? I have never forgotten about her since I first learned of her and I still believe, someone knows something. Whether that person is still alive or not I couldn’t say. But she didn’t just vanish and no one ever knew to where or how.