Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.

hit her first and then once she hit the ground possibly stomped on her neck? (truamtic asphyxia ie crush asphyxiation?)
 
They already confirmed his DNA on the clothing and in the crevice, what about the blood they said was on the equipment he was trying to hide? Didn't they confirm that yet?

Was he seen entering the lab wearing the clothing that was found in the ceiling? Where did he keep the spare clothing if the murder wasn't planned ahead of time? And how long would the two of them have been alone around 10am?

I'm surprised that he'd be careful enough to have hidden a body that wasn't found for several days, but be dumb enough to swipe his card. Didn't he have access to Annie's card? Was it found on her body, or is it missing?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/19/nyregion/19yale.html?partner=rss&emc=rss



"The biggest break in the case came from a German shepherd named Max handled by State Trooper Nick Leary, according to a law enforcement official.
Max, who is trained in body recognition, was first sent to search through mounds of garbage that had been sent out for incineration from the lab. On Sunday he was taken to the basement of the lab building, where he picked up Ms. Le’s scent."
 
hit her first and then once she hit the ground possibly stomped on her neck? (truamtic asphyxia ie crush asphyxiation?)

No! WHY are people saying that! Traumatic asphyxia in ACCIDENTS is usually crush. IN murder traumatic asphyxia is almost always simple face to face manual strangulation or a simple choke hold!

Someone here with no background in murder cause of death must have mistakenly done an internet search and not understood what they read.

male on female murder by "tramatic ashyxia" is almost always just strangulation or choking.
 
I'm surprised that he'd be careful enough to have hidden a body that wasn't found for several days, but be dumb enough to swipe his card. Didn't he have access to Annie's card? Was it found on her body, or is it missing?
Actually the entire body of evidence is perfectly consistent with second degree.

Why did he swipe his card, why did he murder her in a crime scene he didn't control and where he himself worked? why did he hide his lab coat? etc?

Simple: Because it all fits perfectly with an unplanned murder.
 
Plea time! Only a FOOL would go to trial with this much evidence!
Don't forget that the evidence coming out looks good for him in one sense, that it is appearing more and more to be second degree not first degree.
I wondered this, too. Granted Annie only weighed 90 lbs., murdering and hiding Annie's body must've been physically taxing for RC. There's the actual act of murder, moving her body, then hoisting her either up over the wall, or through the wall.
Then, there's the aftermath of the adrenaline rush. No wonder he looked "distraught" during the fire alarm.
Not to taxing at all.
Scenario: They exchange words. She scratches at him and he punches her, or visa versa. he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.

he looks around for hiding place for the body, triggers an alarm, puts her in a laundry cart, moes her to the room with the panel, removes an access panel, puts her body in the large opening. stands on a chair lifts a drop ceiling panel and throws his lab coat and shirt up there.

I wonder if the laundry cart (the one with the blood spatter) could have been used to hide then move her body...if there was truly "spatter", sounds as tho it would have been in close proximity to the physical violence, as well as convenient for hiding Annie's body until he could move it.
If not spatter then perhaps it was transferred from him and/or her.
the simpliest explanation/scerio ought to be considered. an even light punch to the mouth will split a lip causing a fair amount of blood. If he strangled her or choked held her while her lip was bleeding there easily could be her blood on his shoe/boot.

Hmmm... not a bad idea JG (i.e., the use of his knees for traumatic asphyxiation). Especially considering that she seemed to put up quite a fight as evidenced by inflicting on him what some are reporting as deep scratches. Perhaps he needed to utilize his body weight because she wasn't succumbing easily at first. Poor thing.

On a separate note. Has anyone here wondered about the intelligence of RC? His girlfriend described him as "naive," (although that could be in defense of him). He used his own key card erratically--he didn't think to use hers--without having the presence of mind to know that key card swipes would/could be tracked. Or does this instead point to a spontaneous killing that escalated in the moment, and then him not thinking clearly after?

Again it appears as if people are misinforming themselves about "traumatic asphyxia" form early posts that were in ERROR. traumatic asphyxia on in male on female murder is almost always simple face to face strangulation with the hands and second most common a chock hold from behind with the forearm.

If you have udnergone military training in this you are going to choose choke hold when able because you are in a more defendable positon from behind and you have some control overl whether you just render the person unconcious or kill them .

But since he had scratches to his chest it was almost certainly a face to face strangulation. He is a foot taller. that means if he pins her to a wall with his arms locked out, her hands will not reach his face and be below his arms. if untrained, like 99% of people, she would naturally tear at his shirt and chest (the appropriate response on choke hold is to try and flip the person over your back which is hard for a small woman. the appropriate response on a two handed face to face pin to wall is, if close to equal strength, slam up and out at attackers elbows, but if weaker go for a testicle grab and crush.)
 
(the appropriate response on choke hold is to try and flip the person over your back which is hard for a small woman. the appropriate response on a two handed face to face pin to wall is, if close to equal strength, slam up and out at attackers elbows, but if weaker go for a testicle grab and crush.)

I'll have to keep this in mind :eek:

I agree, though. I've read that there were tiny drops of blood. It takes a practically microscopic specimen to get DNA these days because of PCR. That amount of blood could come from the scenario rdm64 is describing.

To play devil's advocate, the investigators have said they zeroed in on RC early because, even as they were searching the building, they observed him cleaning up the area where they now believe AL was killed. I guess he could have been trying to get rid of trace evidence, but I would have thought that he would have cleaned up the area immediately afterward, so I wonder why he risked calling attention to himself by cleaning the area a second time.
 
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j3Z7m0uROG-_CM8GzpRCqE2M9IbwD9AQDKM00

AP says a Ford Taurus has been seized in connection with the Clark case, from the motel Clark had last stayed in. Clark's Mustang has already been seized and searched, to my knowledge.

This is from Wednesday's NY Post:

A neighbor of Clark and his fiancée, Jennifer Hromadka, said the couple left their apartment in a hurry that day.

“They were really rushed,” the woman said, adding that the pair was lugging suitcases and hopped into a silver Taurus with an elderly couple , leaving Clark’s red Mustang behind.

The AP article says Clark's father had stayed with him that night at the motel and it's unclear whether the father ever left, so it might be the father's car. It jibes with the "elderly couple" from Friday night, could've been Clark's parents.

Now what was in those suitcases?
 
Don't forget that the evidence coming out looks good for him in one sense, that it is appearing more and more to be second degree not first degree.

Not to taxing at all.
Scenario: They exchange words. She scratches at him and he punches her, or visa versa. he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.

he looks around for hiding place for the body, triggers an alarm, puts her in a laundry cart, moes her to the room with the panel, removes an access panel, puts her body in the large opening. stands on a chair lifts a drop ceiling panel and throws his lab coat and shirt up there.


the simpliest explanation/scerio ought to be considered. an even light punch to the mouth will split a lip causing a fair amount of blood. If he strangled her or choked held her while her lip was bleeding there easily could be her blood on his shoe/boot.

That is exactly how I envision it also. I think people are making this very much more complicated than it is.
 
I'll have to keep this in mind :eek:

I agree, though. I've read that there were tiny drops of blood. It takes a practically microscopic specimen to get DNA these days because of PCR. That amount of blood could come from the scenario rdm64 is describing.

To play devil's advocate, the investigators have said they zeroed in on RC early because, even as they were searching the building, they observed him cleaning up the area where they now believe AL was killed. I guess he could have been trying to get rid of trace evidence, but I would have thought that he would have cleaned up the area immediately afterward, so I wonder why he risked calling attention to himself by cleaning the area a second time.

Guilt and panic. He couldn't be sure he hadn't missed something the first time.
 
he strangles her, or choke holds her, which is quick and not physically taxing for a atheltic man against a 90 lb woman.

rdm64, I have a question. Does body size really make that much of a difference? I know people relate size and strength, but is that always the case?

For example, I am a much larger person than Annie, but I would guess she was much more athletic than I am. I'm relatively weak for my size I think.

I guess am wondering if size does equal strength
 
rdm64, I have a question. Does body size really make that much of a difference? I know people relate size and strength, but is that always the case?

For example, I am a much larger person than Annie, but I would guess she was much more athletic than I am. I'm relatively weak for my size I think.

I guess am wondering if size does equal strength

Size & weight do have something say, and especially in this case when he is double the weight of Annie, she would have stood no chance.

You might not be athletic, but you are still able to put in alot of your bodyweight into wresting a person, hitting a person, grabbing a person.

Nomatter how athletic you are, if you are weighing 90 pounds, and is wrestling a guy of 190 pounds, then i would say you have no chance, unless you are specifically a skilled fighter in some way.
 
I think I should've entered these posts I made here instead of in the Motive thread yesterday:

Some random thoughts -- not sure what they indicate:

Tonight on TV I heard someone suggest the types of scratches (particularly the chest and back scratches) on RC's body may indicate he was straddling her.

Someone here on WS provided a description of the process/consequences of strangulation and in it, it was said that if enough pressure was applied to the neck that not only air but blood flow would be impaired and a victim could begin to lose consciousness in 10 seconds. Annie obviously put up a fierce fight that lasted much longer so I wonder if RC was holding her by the neck, for some of the time at least, merely to help control her movements (just as straddling would do)?

**********************************************************

Not important, but it occurs to me that with all the talk about RC cleaning up blood evidence, I wonder if during the struggle, other items in the lab could've been damaged that leaked their contents, thus proving a struggle took place in the room which could help to paint a picture of the final encounter?

I wonder if any mice cages were present, since the meeting's intent was to discuss cleanliness issues? Perhaps some cages were knocked about.

I've also wondered if there's a floor drain in the lab room where the murder took place, especially since it's in the basement.
 
Actually the entire body of evidence is perfectly consistent with second degree.

Why did he swipe his card, why did he murder her in a crime scene he didn't control and where he himself worked? why did he hide his lab coat? etc?

Simple: Because it all fits perfectly with an unplanned murder.

If they're just depending upon card swipes, then anyone could have been using his card, just like anyone could have used Annie's card. If he was swiping into areas 'he had no business in' as they've said, why did he have access with his card?

Let's suppose it really was him using his card. What about other card swipes around the last time when Annie was murdered and when Ray left because of the fire alarm. Do they show that Ray was alone in those areas? Or were there other people swiping in and out too? Taken out of context, it may look suspicious that he's swiped into an area where her body was later found and he's there for an hour, but you have to ask if he was really alone there or were there people coming and going? Someone posted a link to an interview with another student who worked in the lab only feet away from where the body was found, and that Ray was nearby too. So it's not clear if his time spent in that area between 10am and 12pm was out of the ordinary, if he was alone, or what.

The pen in the wall near the body could also have been planted, if someone had a beef with Ray and/or Annie. If Raymond put his pen down someplace and someone else picked it up, they could have chucked it in the space with the body. Did they say if anyone noticed Ray's green pen that he usually signs with was conspicuously absent from his person? Or from his signings? Did Ray explain to anyone that his favourite pen had disappeared at a particular time?
 
I think I should've entered these posts I made here instead of in the Motive thread yesterday:

Some random thoughts -- not sure what they indicate:

Tonight on TV I heard someone suggest the types of scratches (particularly the chest and back scratches) on RC's body may indicate he was straddling her.

Someone here on WS provided a description of the process/consequences of strangulation and in it, it was said that if enough pressure was applied to the neck that not only air but blood flow would be impaired and a victim could begin to lose consciousness in 10 seconds. Annie obviously put up a fierce fight that lasted much longer so I wonder if RC was holding her by the neck, for some of the time at least, merely to help control her movements (just as straddling would do)?

**********************************************************

Not important, but it occurs to me that with all the talk about RC cleaning up blood evidence, I wonder if during the struggle, other items in the lab could've been damaged that leaked their contents, thus proving a struggle took place in the room which could help to paint a picture of the final encounter?

I wonder if any mice cages were present, since the meeting's intent was to discuss cleanliness issues? Perhaps some cages were knocked about.

I've also wondered if there's a floor drain in the lab room where the murder took place, especially since it's in the basement.

Some rooms have floor drains, some do not. I would guess no cages got knocked around. If a conventional rack went over during a struggle, the noise would have brought everyone running. An air flow rack (cages are locked into their slots) is pretty stable- it would move a bit if you fell against it. I think it would take a deliberate effort to knock one of those over.

If a few cages fell to the floor, the water bottles might leak, or there's usually a spray bottle of disinfectant solution but that would not prove a struggle. So far I've broken 3 of them by dropping them on the floor- LOL. I've dropped a mouse cage twice. I think he would have cleaned anything like that up right away.

I wonder if there are any mice unaccounted for? If cages were knocked over, he might not have been able to corral the mice in time.
 
The pen in the wall near the body could also have been planted,

I think Clark's green pen that was found in the wall likely either had some blood evidence on it OR was used as a garrote to tighten whatever was used to strangle Annie.
 
On another site someone posted that if he had scratch marks on his chest and back,he more than likely had his shirt off. Makes sense to me...scratch marks on his back, she may have gotten her hands away if he was on top of her. This is so much more than mere workplace violence, he just doesn't want to admit(or have his gf find out) that he is a stalking, obsessive, punk.
 

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