Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.

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Skigirl said:
I'm not as small as Annie, and I could easily fit in a space that was two feet wide. I don't think we know for sure how tall the space is. I would imagine that if it's like other buildings on campus, it's made so that electricians and other tradespeople can get in fairly easily and do work on the mechanicals without having to tear apart the walls. The ones like that that I've seen (in a new building several blocks away) aren't particularly small, though you would have to maneuver around the wires and pipes to work on something specific in there.
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I have been on many construction sites (New Constructions - real estate) I did go through a crawl space one time because of a ring. I am not as small as Le was.
Yes that is where electrical things are stored.
 
gxm said:
In addition to stealing his ID card, someone would have needed to steal his cell phone… as well as his green pen.
"Investigators have gathered more than 250 pieces of evidence in the case, sources told ABC News, including text messages exchanged between Clark and Le arranging to meet on the day she disappeared."

http://a.abcnews.com/m/screen?id=8598755&pid=248
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BBM
Not sure about that. One can have a legitimate call in to her to discuss something. Separate from everything else.

I did not hear that his ID card was missing. :rolleyes:
but if it was, then they give you a temporary card to get in and out, that would mean that he had to have reported it missing. DID HE?

I wonder why didn't he steal her card to cover his tracks? Just wonder....

I lost an ID card once and we had a guard who let me in.
 
I still see lies, inaccuracies, and the guy still does not have good representation.

I see a poor little girl dead, and most people just sympathising with her and not really looking much further.

:( :( :( JMO
 
If someone framed RC then they've done a very good job. They knew the where and when of his meeting meeting with AL. They managed to get into the room she was killed in without swiping their card. They were able to steal and use his ID/swipe card without him knowing it was gone. They knew he always carried a green pen. They were able to transfer his DNA to Annie's body and the bloody clothes in the ceiling without transferring their own DNA. They were able to scratch his chest and arms to simulate defensive wounds. And that still doesn't explain failing the lie detector test or refusing a DNA test.
 
I agree, would be hard to say he was framed with what we know already. Though more will be known when evidence is released.

Has anybody heard if Annie ever mentioned to her fiance that suspect had been difficult to her or a pain to her?
 
Very Interesting said:
I agree, would be hard to say he was framed with what we know already. Though more will be known when evidence is released.

Has anybody heard if Annie ever mentioned to her fiance that suspect had been difficult to her or a pain to her?
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the whole "framing" scenario is basically a Hollywood theme...rarely does anyone "frame" another person for murder - especially if the murder was done by amateurs (and I don't think any defense is going to claim that this murder was the result of organized crime or career murderers).

In fact, usually the opposite happens of "framing" occurs, the murderer (who knows his victim) often tries to make it look like "an accident" (Drew Peterson) or "some other dude did it" (Chris Coleman), but even that doesn't work very often. Drew Peterson, a veteran LE, had the benefit of knowing exactly how to cover up a crime...and even he may not be able to continue to keep his freedom.


Yes, it would be interesting to know if any of Annie's roommates or her fiance or others heard Annie complain about Clark's behavior towards her. Of course, the courts would just say that is "hearsay", so hopefully Clark did send texts or emails that demonstrate his harassment.
 
gxm said:
If someone framed RC then they've done a very good job. They knew the where and when of his meeting meeting with AL. They managed to get into the room she was killed in without swiping their card. They were able to steal and use his ID/swipe card without him knowing it was gone. They knew he always carried a green pen. They were able to transfer his DNA to Annie's body and the bloody clothes in the ceiling without transferring their own DNA. They were able to scratch his chest and arms to simulate defensive wounds. And that still doesn't explain failing the lie detector test or refusing a DNA test.
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It wouldn't have been hard to frame Ray. If he leaves his scrubs lying around, they'll be full of DNA evidence. Card and pen, if he left those lying around, they could have also been taken. Or someone could have made a fake card. But that's just assuming that the card swipes are the indicator that a crime was committed. We don't know. If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place? If that place was crawling with students, it would be difficult for him to be in that area where her body was found for an hour or so they claim working on making the body fit.

They said it was adjacent to a bathroom. Was it ever closed off as being out of order? That's the only way I can think of it being used to conceal the body without anyone seeing what was happening.

The scratching wounds are not conclusive. He had them on his back as well. How did she get her fingers under his scrubs and shirt and reach to his back when she was supposedly in a choke hold from behind? He should have scratches on the more obvious places, like his face, or his lower arms.

But he might not have been framed. He might have been one person who was asked to do something, and somebody or some other people carried out a plan. At this point, the evidence suggesting that he committed an act of rage in the work place without any one seeing him do that, and move the body, is just not convincing enough. For instance, was he the only person scanning his card in that area after hours?

If she did scratch her attacker, then that evidence should still be under her fingernails.
 
If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place?
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There is a HUGE difference between "no business areas" and areas where he didn't likely need to go. "No Business" areas are forbidden and tightly restricted. While there are often many areas people CAN have access to, but they don't go to simply because their daily chores may not need them to go there. They may not be "refused" access because there could be reason for them to occasionally go there in response to a request or meeting.
 
Shlock Homes said:
It wouldn't have been hard to frame Ray. If he leaves his scrubs lying around, they'll be full of DNA evidence. Card and pen, if he left those lying around, they could have also been taken. Or someone could have made a fake card. But that's just assuming that the card swipes are the indicator that a crime was committed. We don't know. If he's had 'no business' being in some areas, then why did he have card access in the first place? If that place was crawling with students, it would be difficult for him to be in that area where her body was found for an hour or so they claim working on making the body fit.

They said it was adjacent to a bathroom. Was it ever closed off as being out of order? That's the only way I can think of it being used to conceal the body without anyone seeing what was happening.

The scratching wounds are not conclusive. He had them on his back as well. How did she get her fingers under his scrubs and shirt and reach to his back when she was supposedly in a choke hold from behind? He should have scratches on the more obvious places, like his face, or his lower arms.

But he might not have been framed. He might have been one person who was asked to do something, and somebody or some other people carried out a plan. At this point, the evidence suggesting that he committed an act of rage in the work place without any one seeing him do that, and move the body, is just not convincing enough. For instance, was he the only person scanning his card in that area after hours?

If she did scratch her attacker, then that evidence should still be under her fingernails.
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he did have significant scratches and scrapes and bruises to the lower arms, his eye and his ear -article in the news articles list, will have a look
 
Waddles said:
he did have significant scratches and scrapes and bruises to the lower arms, his eye and his ear -article in the news articles list, will have a look
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http://gawker.com/5361611/raymond-clark-the-official-suspect

Sources also told the newspaper that Clark bore bruises, scratches and abrasions on his arms and chest, as well as a mark on his right ear and under his eye.

He said some of the injuries were suffered during a softball game, the others were cat scratches, according to the Register.
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http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2009/09/16/news/doc4ab1b7c80e417441563894.txt

When he was questioned by the FBI, agents took note of numerous injuries on his body, the source said, including what appeared to be bruises and abrasions on his arms, a mark under his eye, a scratch on his ear, and a bruise or deep scratch to his chest.

When questioned, he said some of the injuries were a scratch from a cat. Others he attributed to playing softball.
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RC is, allegedly, a clean freak. I don't see him leaving his scrubs lying around. Likewise with the green pen. In one picture of him it's neatly tucked into his left crest pocket (link below). IMO it's just not plausible that this man left these items lying around. He wasn't known for being sloppy. He was known for being a stickler to protocol.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4195198&postcount=116"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Evidence -- Body, Blood, Clothes, etc.[/ame]
 
RC's HS girlfriend said this in her GMA interview the other day:

As the relationship progressed, so did his control, Del Rocco said, saying that if things weren't going his way, "he'd make them go his way."

"There were times he did frighten me," she said, saying that sometimes things got physical, which she said the police have asked her not to talk about. "He'd get this little look in his eye. Sometimes it was better to do what he said just to avoid the fight."

We already know this gf and her mother contacted police about rape but chose not to press charges against RC. Now I'm wondering if his physical means of control may have included attempted strangulation. I hope the HS gf doesn't do or say anything that could sabotage any testimony she may be called upon to give at the trial. If he choked her to control her, it seems to me her testimony would be germane. Testimony about the past rape claim would be as well if there's any evidence that RC sexually assaulted Annie. I'm not familiar enough with trials of this sort to know if such testimony would even be allowed. I certainly hope so though. I suppose it could be that unless the HS gf has tangible proof, her testimony could be shot down. Maybe WS members who know more about trial proceedings will share their insight.
 
Nancy Grace is talking about the evidence found in the washroom drain and the discussion is about the scrubs and if it could be possible to even get them down into this drain. She's also asking how LE became aware of the evidence, whether a drain was clogged and a plumber called, who in turn called LE, or if LE was called before the plumber. NG is also questioning why LE didn't thoroughly go through the lab (drains, etc) before they cleared the crime scene. No mention what the "new evidence" is though! :waitasec:
 
That is definitely a huge problem with this investigation. The law enforcement people did not secure the lab area once it was determined that Annie Le entered the building but never left. No one has said yet if it was possible to leave the lab area and go into another part of the building without being seen on camera.

With regards to the scratches, I've seen the pictures of him at his arraignment and he didn't have any visible marks. If he was involved in an altercation with another person and scratching had occurred, it would be quite apparent, even after a week or so. Heck, his fellow students and co-workers would have remarked on the nasty claw marks that would have been visible on his arms and face. I'm inclined to believe that those were caused by every day events that were described in some articles as being to due to his cat, and playing softball. There were probably many other things that cause scratches. If he had fought Annie Le, they would be very visible, and not on his back.
 
I read they found his pen in the chase but have no link, so take that with grain of salt. IIRC, he was known to use a green pen?

Since Ray has yet to scream "I was framed!" IMO he wasn't.


ETA: Oh, that's old. Sorry.
The NY Daily News

"Clark did not want to be just some guy who cleans mouse cages, so he distinguished himself by always signing in for work with a pen that used green ink. Every day, including the day of the killing.

Investigators believe he dropped the pen at the scene and was unable to retrieve it after it fell into a crevice.

He apparently hoped to fish it out when he showed up at the lab the day after the killing with a backpack containing wire, fishing hooks and bubble gum.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...reep_in_prison_for_keeps.html#ixzz0RTask0SX "
 
Noway said:
I read they found his pen in the chase but have no link, so take that with grain of salt. IIRC, he was known to use a green pen?

Since Ray has yet to scream "I was framed!" IMO he wasn't.
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I don't think it would matter if he said that or not, people wouldn't believe him. Oswald claimed he was a patsy, and no one believed him then. He is better off not saying anything right now.
 
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