GA GA - Carlene Tengelsen, 16, Macon, 21 June 1972

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Bumping for Carlene. The anniversary of her disappearance is Friday.
 
dogperson said:
Does anyone know where Mike Debardeleben was in 1972? I've been looking for timelines and there seems to be a blank between a murder in 1971 and another in 1975. It's doubtful he just stopped for 4 years unless he was incarcerated.
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Thank you for bringing this! I really believe this was Mike's doing! If you read Lethal Shadow. You will see he was in Macon. This man was an organized killer. There are so many more victims. Please read the book it is a eye opener for sure! This is my first post!
 
puzzleme said:
Thank you for bringing this! I really believe this was Mike's doing! If you read Lethal Shadow. You will see he was in Macon. This man was an organized killer. There are so many more victims. Please read the book it is a eye opener for sure! This is my first post!
Click to expand...

Thanks, I found that book used online real cheap and ordered it. I wish somebody would reopen Carlene's case. It still may not be too late if they really worked at it.
 
puzzleme said:
Thank you for bringing this! I really believe this was Mike's doing! If you read Lethal Shadow. You will see he was in Macon. This man was an organized killer. There are so many more victims. Please read the book it is a eye opener for sure! This is my first post!
Click to expand...

First of all: Welcome to Websleuths, puzzleme!

:welcome5:

...and now, a question for you: Can you point me to the section of the book in which it is stated that DeBardeleben was in Macon?

Strangely enough, I am reading the book now (although I have the retitled version, Beyond Cruel -- same book, though) and the main reason I decided to read it was because I wondered if he might be linked to Carlene's disappearance. I have been reading rather piecemeal, though, so could have missed the Macon reference. (I do know that some of his counterfeit passing occurred in Georgia, around Atlanta, I think?)

Now, let me back up a bit further and just say a general "hi" to those who read and post in this thread. I don't believe I have ever posted here, but have read from time to time, as I am very interested in Carlene's case. I grew up and live now in the same general region of Georgia. Carlene was a few years older than me -- I can't quite recall if I actually remember when she went missing or whether I just remember the case being "revisited" in later years in area media.

One thing for sure, the Westgate Mall connection really resonates with me. From my earliest memories, the grocery stores that "anchored" the mall were where my mom would make a run about every two weeks for "town" grocery shopping -- our area at that time was VERY rural, and going to Macon seemed a pretty long trip and kind of a big deal. My brothers are six and eight years older than me -- and often the younger one and I would accompany my mom, wandering all over the other stores in Westgate while my mom grocery-shopped.

By the time Carlene disappeared, my brother wasn't making the trips with us any more, but I often still did -- and I continued the tradition of browsing the mall stores, alone now, while Mama grocery-shopped. I wasn't really "stranger-danger" wise, either, particularly -- so it is a little scary to think about now. Never had any scary experiences, though, that I recall.

dogperson, you seem to be the poster who has kind of shepherded Carlene's thread along and you have done a fine job. I, too, wish this case could be solved!! Reading through the thread, I noticed you have mentioned both of the "big name" possible POIs that came to my mind about this case, those being Debardeleben and Paul John Knowles.

On the Debardeleben angle, a couple of thoughts: I have to admit that I never had heard of the guy (to recall, anyhow) until a month or so ago when someone mentioned him somewhere else on WS. I checked him out a little online and thought about Carlene's case -- then checked here and saw a mention of him. That's when I decided to read the book mentioned above.

MD was so all-over-the-map, both literally and in the range of his crimes. One thing I noticed that could tie in here was that, in at least a couple of his abduction/murders, he took the victim somewhere in HER car and, if I am remembering correctly, sometimes returned the car. Also, he impersonated LE, at times -- and I have thought how vulnerable Carlene would have been to that, perhaps -- a newly licensed driver on her first "solo" trip.

Also, several of his victims were real estate agents. I noticed on an earlier visit to this thread that someone had linked some very interesting historical info about Westgate and I think a real estate office was mentioned as one of the mall businesses (not one I recall from my young wanderings -- though I've been trying to remember! Just wouldn't have interested me much, I think, at that age.) Maybe he could have been trying to work one of his real estate agent abductions, something fouled it up, and he went after Carlene instead... just a thought.

Now, Paul John Knowles, whom I considered as a possibility long before I knew anything about Debardeleben. Again, of special interest to me because he killed several people in my region of Georgia, one in my home county.

Ever since the remains of Ima Jean Sanders, which were found in the 1970s but not identified until a couple of years ago, were linked to Knowles, I've been wanting (and still intend, soon) to start a thread about Knowles in the serial killer forum.

Here's Ima Jean's thread, by the way, for those who may not have seen it and want to read it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149400&highlight=ima+jean+sanders

I really feel Knowles may have more victims out there.

As I understand it, Knowles' known murders began (and ended) in 1974. But I'm not so sure that he had never killed before... . I know that he already had spent a lot of his life in reformatories/jails/prisons, so I don't know if it is even possible that he could be connected to Carlene's case, in 1972. Accurate information about Knowles' known crimes is hard to track -- there is a LOT of misinformation about them out there on the 'net -- and I haven't found anywhere to track his "pre-spree" incarcerations much at all. I certainly think, though, it would be interesting to know if Knowles was or wasn't incarcerated at the time of Carlene's disappearance.

I do know that Knowles had a girlfriend in Macon...but I don't know how or when she first met him -- in other words, whether they were acquainted in 1972. When Ima Jean's remains were identified, a Macon television station ran the story at this link:

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/ar...s-DNA-Solved-1974-Killing-of-Ima-Jean-Sanders

...and the coverage on the web page includes video from their archives about the Knowles case, including some of the girlfriend talking about her relationship with Knowles, so those might be worth a look to anyone interested in this angle.

Well, this is a long "hello" post -- one I've been meaning to make for a while. But I KNEW it would be long, so had to find the right time slot to sit down and do it!
 
dogperson said:
The boyfriend must have checked out okay; it's my understanding from the info out there that he was present at his job during the time Carlene disappeared. He worked at a grocery store in the general area of the mall because Carlene put a note on his windshield while she was at the mall. The note said she was looking forward to seeing him that night. The note makes it sound as though the relationship was going well and that they had a date planned for the evening. Normally the boyfriend or husband is the first person who needs to be checked out so I certainly hope the police verified he was on the job for his entire shift. I can't find any articles at all that state his name but I'm guessing he was underage at the time. If he was ruled out as a suspect then police and/or his family may have wanted to keep his name out of it.

Carlene did have a full set of braces when she disappeared and I haven't found any UIDs anywhere in the country whose stats match up with her. The few who are wearing braces are nowhere near as tall as Carlene, among other things that rule them out. I wish her DNA or dentals were on file with NAMUS in case remains ever turn up, but maybe the family is waiting to submit those items if and when a likely match ever does turn up.

Occasionally I check websites that sell yearbooks hoping to find a 1972 book from her high school, which would have been the spring before she disappeared. I would be interested to see what photos there might be of her and who might be in those photos with her. If by any chance a young man from her school, or even an authority figure at the school, abducted her then I am hoping something in the photos would give us a clue, although I realize how far-fetched an idea that is. I still think it was more likely a grown man who took her, and that maybe it was a crime of opportunity and she just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It seems so unsolvable now, unless somebody makes a confession all these years later.
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bbm: The yearbook idea is one I don't think I would have thought of -- sure worth a look!

Sometimes I see yearbooks from area schools at yard sales, etc., and also, once a year, the Macon public library's Friends of the Library holds a huge and wonderful Old Book Sale -- there are often yearbooks there. I'll keep an eye out and let you know if I run across one.

(One thing to keep in mind on the yearbook/school angle: In the early 1970s, the public high school system in Macon/Bibb County was in a state of flux. Since Carlene, in the summer of 1972, is reported to have been a rising junior at Southwest High School, I guess that means she was a sophomore in the 1971-72 school year, and a freshman in the 1970-71 year...? I believe that 70/71 was the first year for Southwest High School -- the year Macon high schools were first fully racially desegregated. If Carlene had hit high school before that year, I believe she probably would have attended the old McEvoy High School, which was an all-girls, predominantly white student body.)
 
On Mike Debardeleben, I think I recall reading somewhere that he liked to "joyride" in the cars of his victims after doing away with them. Sounds like maybe he got an extra rush out of doing that. I will try and find the website or article for that. So that's one reason I thought of him for Carlene's abduction. Another is that he was known as the "mall passer" for passing counterfeit currency at malls. So that could put him in the area of Westgate.

I have tried to find out incarceration dates for Knowles but the most I have been able to find out is that he spent approximately 6 months of every year of his adult life in jail. It would depend whether he was in or out of jail in June of that year. Is there still some way of pulling up someone's incarceration history? I think on some older WS threads I have seen detailed timelines of inmates but I have no idea how to go about getting that kind of information.

Backwoods, did you ever hear any talk around town as to theories of what might have happened to Carlene?
 
Backwoods said:
First of all: Welcome to Websleuths, puzzleme!

:welcome5:

...and now, a question for you: Can you point me to the section of the book in which it is stated that DeBardeleben was in Macon?

Strangely enough, I am reading the book now (although I have the retitled version, Beyond Cruel -- same book, though) and the main reason I decided to read it was because I wondered if he might be linked to Carlene's disappearance. I have been reading rather piecemeal, though, so could have missed the Macon reference. (I do know that some of his counterfeit passing occurred in Georgia, around Atlanta, I think?)

Now, let me back up a bit further and just say a general "hi" to those who read and post in this thread. I don't believe I have ever posted here, but have read from time to time, as I am very interested in Carlene's case. I grew up and live now in the same general region of Georgia. Carlene was a few years older than me -- I can't quite recall if I actually remember when she went missing or whether I just remember the case being "revisited" in later years in area media.

One thing for sure, the Westgate Mall connection really resonates with me. From my earliest memories, the grocery stores that "anchored" the mall were where my mom would make a run about every two weeks for "town" grocery shopping -- our area at that time was VERY rural, and going to Macon seemed a pretty long trip and kind of a big deal. My brothers are six and eight years older than me -- and often the younger one and I would accompany my mom, wandering all over the other stores in Westgate while my mom grocery-shopped.

By the time Carlene disappeared, my brother wasn't making the trips with us any more, but I often still did -- and I continued the tradition of browsing the mall stores, alone now, while Mama grocery-shopped. I wasn't really "stranger-danger" wise, either, particularly -- so it is a little scary to think about now. Never had any scary experiences, though, that I recall.

dogperson, you seem to be the poster who has kind of shepherded Carlene's thread along and you have done a fine job. I, too, wish this case could be solved!! Reading through the thread, I noticed you have mentioned both of the "big name" possible POIs that came to my mind about this case, those being Debardeleben and Paul John Knowles.

On the Debardeleben angle, a couple of thoughts: I have to admit that I never had heard of the guy (to recall, anyhow) until a month or so ago when someone mentioned him somewhere else on WS. I checked him out a little online and thought about Carlene's case -- then checked here and saw a mention of him. That's when I decided to read the book mentioned above.

MD was so all-over-the-map, both literally and in the range of his crimes. One thing I noticed that could tie in here was that, in at least a couple of his abduction/murders, he took the victim somewhere in HER car and, if I am remembering correctly, sometimes returned the car. Also, he impersonated LE, at times -- and I have thought how vulnerable Carlene would have been to that, perhaps -- a newly licensed driver on her first "solo" trip.

Also, several of his victims were real estate agents. I noticed on an earlier visit to this thread that someone had linked some very interesting historical info about Westgate and I think a real estate office was mentioned as one of the mall businesses (not one I recall from my young wanderings -- though I've been trying to remember! Just wouldn't have interested me much, I think, at that age.) Maybe he could have been trying to work one of his real estate agent abductions, something fouled it up, and he went after Carlene instead... just a thought.

Now, Paul John Knowles, whom I considered as a possibility long before I knew anything about Debardeleben. Again, of special interest to me because he killed several people in my region of Georgia, one in my home county.

Ever since the remains of Ima Jean Sanders, which were found in the 1970s but not identified until a couple of years ago, were linked to Knowles, I've been wanting (and still intend, soon) to start a thread about Knowles in the serial killer forum.

Here's Ima Jean's thread, by the way, for those who may not have seen it and want to read it:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149400&highlight=ima+jean+sanders

I really feel Knowles may have more victims out there.

As I understand it, Knowles' known murders began (and ended) in 1974. But I'm not so sure that he had never killed before... . I know that he already had spent a lot of his life in reformatories/jails/prisons, so I don't know if it is even possible that he could be connected to Carlene's case, in 1972. Accurate information about Knowles' known crimes is hard to track -- there is a LOT of misinformation about them out there on the 'net -- and I haven't found anywhere to track his "pre-spree" incarcerations much at all. I certainly think, though, it would be interesting to know if Knowles was or wasn't incarcerated at the time of Carlene's disappearance.

I do know that Knowles had a girlfriend in Macon...but I don't know how or when she first met him -- in other words, whether they were acquainted in 1972. When Ima Jean's remains were identified, a Macon television station ran the story at this link:

http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/ar...s-DNA-Solved-1974-Killing-of-Ima-Jean-Sanders

...and the coverage on the web page includes video from their archives about the Knowles case, including some of the girlfriend talking about her relationship with Knowles, so those might be worth a look to anyone interested in this angle.

Well, this is a long "hello" post -- one I've been meaning to make for a while. But I KNEW it would be long, so had to find the right time slot to sit down and do it!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the Welcome Backwoods! I live about 100 miles south of the Macon mall. I haven't been there but a few times so I to had a interest in this case. I know now that I was wrong about Macon being in the book but it might have been on the documentary I saw on you tube about this monster. They had a map with different places he went. I know I saw it somewhere! He had hundreds of maps!
 
dogperson said:
On Mike Debardeleben, I think I recall reading somewhere that he liked to "joyride" in the cars of his victims after doing away with them. Sounds like maybe he got an extra rush out of doing that. I will try and find the website or article for that. So that's one reason I thought of him for Carlene's abduction. Another is that he was known as the "mall passer" for passing counterfeit currency at malls. So that could put him in the area of Westgate.

I have tried to find out incarceration dates for Knowles but the most I have been able to find out is that he spent approximately 6 months of every year of his adult life in jail. It would depend whether he was in or out of jail in June of that year. Is there still some way of pulling up someone's incarceration history? I think on some older WS threads I have seen detailed timelines of inmates but I have no idea how to go about getting that kind of information.

Backwoods, did you ever hear any talk around town as to theories of what might have happened to Carlene?
Click to expand...

No, I can't say I ever did. As I said earlier, I am not from Macon, just an adjacent county, and Carlene was a few years older than me. I do, however, know some people from Macon who would be around her age -- I will try to ask folks, as I run across them, whether they remember hearing any theories or talk.

Re: Knowles -- I wonder if the Macon girlfriend in the archive video at the link I posted is still living/in the area? I read somewhere (will try to find and link) that then-Macon Telegraph reporter Randall Savage recalled that Knowles would sometimes bring her "gifts" that were actually items taken from his victims.

I know he gave the British journalist, Sandy Fawkes (?), that he hooked up with for a spell in 1974 a Mickey Mouse watch -- but I am pretty sure that was taken from victim Mandy Carr in 1974.
 
puzzleme said:
Thanks for the Welcome Backwoods! I live about 100 miles south of the Macon mall. I haven't been there but a few times so I to had a interest in this case. I know now that I was wrong about Macon being in the book but it might have been on the documentary I saw on you tube about this monster. They had a map with different places he went. I know I saw it somewhere! He had hundreds of maps!
Click to expand...

Oh I definitely think it's possible Debardeleben may have visited Macon in his travels!! I just thought maybe I had missed a direct reference in the book.

And yes, all those photos, maps, notes he had!! The way I understand it, there was so much it was hard to know how to go about trying to link to cases. I think they basically ended up sending out sort of an "overview" of what they'd found, then let local LE contact them about cases that might fit. I have to wonder: Did Macon LE "get the memo", and did they look into Carlene's case being linked?
 
dogperson, again regarding Paul John Knowles:

I've found the trutv.com<crimelibrary> account to be probably the least error-riddled online source about Knowles -- not to say it might not have some errors -- and I know it is a source that is OK to link here, so ...look at this:

...At one point, in 1970, he met a woman, corresponded with her, and decided to go straight, so he could get a job, marry her, and support her and her three children. However, he found that with his prison record, it was difficult to find employment. Frustration overcame him and he gave up, precipitating a breakup with the woman and further crimes. (She later received stolen goods that Knowles had taken from one of his victims, and he stayed with her for a brief period during his 1974 murder spree.) ...
Click to expand...
read more at: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/john_paul_knowles/6.html

I wonder if this is a reference to the Macon woman I mentioned earlier, and, if it is, whether the 1970 meeting date is accurate and if she was living in Macon at that time. But if it is and she was -- well, that could certainly put Knowles in Macon on occasion in 1972 (if he wasn't incarcerated).

This COULD refer, though, to the (California?) woman who corresponded with Knowles, helped him get parole, then dumped him after he headed West to marry her ... just before his 1974 spree of killings. ETA: (But, nope, at least from the account at the link, doesn't sound like it -- because it goes on from the paragraph I quoted to lead INTO the part of his story having to do with the California woman.)
 
You know I had forgotten all about Knowles! But this kidnapping fits MD's style. But that's just me. But I'm probably wrong. I'm just glad were talking about her. She is the victim and should never be forgotten!
To answer your question if LE was ever contacted I doubt they would ever tell us. Which is a shame!
My question is what do her parents think about MD or Knowles being responsible for her disappearance? Are her parents still alive? My heart goes out to them and her family!
 
puzzleme said:
You know I had forgotten all about Knowles! But this kidnapping fits MD's style. But that's just me. But I'm probably wrong. I'm just glad were talking about her. She is the victim and should never be forgotten!
To answer your question if LE was ever contacted I doubt they would ever tell us. Which is a shame!
My question is what do her parents think about MD or Knowles being responsible for her disappearance? Are her parents still alive? My heart goes out to them and her family!
Click to expand...

My understanding is that her mom and siblings are still living but that her dad has passed. I believe it was on the NAMUS website that I saw that her DNA is on file but I have noticed that she never seems to be on any rule-out lists for unidentifieds. I personally have submitted several UIDs thru Doe Network but all have been ruled out thru dentals, etc. but never DNA. How can we be sure the DNA is in CODIS? There are a lot of UIDs with similar physical descriptions that you would think they would have run against Carlene if her DNA is in CODIS, so I wonder why she's never on any of the rule-out lists.
 
Exactly! I have wondered the same thing! I'm sorry to say according to the letter she wrote in 1999 LE didn't even know if she had been found or was dead. So if they didn't know that it sounds like DNA hasn't even been tested against any UID. I have been looking to at UIDs with no luck but I have been looking at area maps of Macon trying to see if there might be a chance to find where her remains might be found. I am disabled with lupus so traveling is out for me. If only I knew someone who lived near Macon I could consult with about maybe looking around or looking for wells. I know realistically I can't find her! But that letter the Mother wrote to the paper it broke my heart! I'm a mother of three grown children 27, 24, and 21. I can't image her pain. I'm determined to try to find Carlene for her.
Any ideas? I'm new to all this and I would like any ideas you might have. Which UID have you tried to match with her with?
 
puzzleme said:
You know I had forgotten all about Knowles! But this kidnapping fits MD's style. But that's just me. But I'm probably wrong. I'm just glad were talking about her. She is the victim and should never be forgotten!
To answer your question if LE was ever contacted I doubt they would ever tell us. Which is a shame!
My question is what do her parents think about MD or Knowles being responsible for her disappearance? Are her parents still alive? My heart goes out to them and her family!
Click to expand...

bbm (bolded by me) above:

I don't know -- they might be willing to say whether they had looked into the Debardeleben angle. In fact, if we could find any info that he may have been in the area around that time, I think it would not be a bad idea to submit a tip. What could it hurt, anyhow?

I wonder if the agency (wasn't it Secret Service?) that compiled all that huge amount of info relating to him and sent out a summary still gets communications from local LEs regarding unsolved cases with possible connections? They had so much -- his bizarre notes and many receipts indicating his travel and activities, photos and such in which the apparent victims had not been identified -- sure seems to me like it might be worth a shot.
 
If only the receipts were available to see. That's one thing the Secret Service wouldn't ever release to the public. The PDF is a great time line in fact I have found several kidnappings "I" think he may be involved in. But if LE would request to see them it might be the lead that broke the case. Is there any way the public could petition to see the receipts? I want to be doing something to help! I truly believe this is MB's doing! But saying and proving it is a whole different thing! I won't give up though!
 
I noticed on Carlene's NAMUS profile there is a local police contact and also an FBI contact listed. I wonder if we could contact the lady listed for the FBI and check into whether DNA has been submitted to CODIS and whether they have looked at Debardeleben???
 
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