GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #12

[McMunn]

I did not know there was a paper mill in Macon. I thought they were all in SE GA because of our softwood (pine) trees. You are definitely right, McMunn, that the rotten egg sulfur smell from a paper mill could mask the smell of decomposition. The one in Savannah used to smell all the time until a group of people somehow forced it to install some kind of equiptment to clean the smell. At least I think that was what I read.

Hey Pearl!

Apparently, Riverwood spent $90 million in 1994 to install a state-of-the-art scrubber and boiler system to reduce the offending emissions. Prior to that, it used to be much worse. There are days when I walk outside and just say, "ughh." It's when the easterly winds blow, it comes my way, and I'm probably about 15 miles from the paper mill.

 

[pearl]

I live about an hour's drive from Savannah. The smell of the paper mill there would hit you way out on I-16. The mill is located on the river near the Savannah historic district so I imagine it was playing hell with our more enviromentally savvy tourists. I don't even smell it anymore when I go to Savannah. There is also one in Jesup, GA, which is about an hour's drive from me also. I am interested in what Oriah could tell us about the dogs' ability to scent in the area that Tomkat described. When I go to Macon, I usually get off I-16 on the exit after the Coliseum so am somewhat familiar with Lauren's area if only to pass through. I am a directionally challenged individual and tend to drive the same roads over and over again when I go somewhere. I was getting worried that Lauren's thread would move off the first page of Located forum. I don't want that to happen..

 

[Oriah]

I did not know there was a paper mill in Macon. I thought they were all in SE GA because of our softwood (pine) trees. You are definitely right, McMunn, that the rotten egg sulfur smell from a paper mill could mask the smell of decomposition. The one in Savannah used to smell all the time until a group of people somehow forced it to install some kind of equiptment to clean the smell. At least I think that was what I read. Would one of those dogs that search for remains be usable around a paper mill?

Maybe Oriah could answer this question.

Paper mills are an interesting question, pearl.
The sulfur smell that we (humans) smell that emanates from paper mills, smells different to a dog that has been trained in human remains detection, than decomp from a human. The paper mill smell is typically sulphites + the 'cooking' of the sugars and lignins in the wood. Think burnt sugar and sulphur. Yuck!

It's not dissimilar to the pluff mud smell- bacteria, plant, animal and soil decomp, salt- which produces high sulfuric gas emissions.

But none of those smell like human remains to a properly trained HRD dog. To us? Yes- most certainly masks other odors.

That said- here in the south, we proof dogs off of both just to be sure. Unfortunately, missing people sometimes end up in a marsh, an area of heavy decaying plant matter and/or soil, the water (which most paper mills use for power or waste)... you see what I mean.

I've always thought that the dogs are kind of bummed out when having to work in an environment as described. They love 'dead' stuff, and would rather roll around in some pluff mud than work through it. But they know it's not the scent they are 'looking' for.

 

[pearl]

Paper mills are an interesting question, pearl.
The sulfur smell that we (humans) smell that emanates from paper mills, smells different to a dog that has been trained in human remains detection, than decomp from a human. The paper mill smell is typically sulphites + the 'cooking' of the sugars and lignins in the wood. Think burnt sugar and sulphur. Yuck!

It's not dissimilar to the pluff mud smell- bacteria, plant, animal and soil decomp, salt- which produces high sulfuric gas emissions.

But none of those smell like human remains to a properly trained HRD dog. To us? Yes- most certainly masks other odors.

That said- here in the south, we proof dogs off of both just to be sure. Unfortunately, missing people sometimes end up in a marsh, an area of heavy decaying plant matter and/or soil, the water (which most paper mills use for power or waste)... you see what I mean.

I've always thought that the dogs are kind of bummed out when having to work in an environment as described. They love 'dead' stuff, and would rather roll around in some pluff mud than work through it. But they know it's not the scent they are 'looking' for.

Thanks, Oriah. My two dogs, a golden retriever and a bassett hound, sure do enjoy rolling around on our property where an animal has died (deer, rabbit, etc). I guess ya'll who work with search and rescue dogs sure have your work cut out for you when properly training a work dog. The only official type dog I am familiar with are the drug sniffing dogs they bring through our schools. I know that these dogs can give a false positive when potato chips have been in a lunch tote because that happened in my classroom. The handler told me that is what happened anyway. Thanks again. I am rambling.

 

[Oriah]

Thanks, Oriah. My two dogs, a golden retriever and a bassett hound, sure do enjoy rolling around on our property where an animal has died (deer, rabbit, etc). I guess ya'll who work with search and rescue dogs sure have your work cut out for you when properly training a work dog. The only official type dog I am familiar with are the drug sniffing dogs they bring through our schools. I know that these dogs can give a false positive when potato chips have been in a lunch tote because that happened in my classroom. The handler told me that is what happened anyway. Thanks again. I am rambling.

OIY!
A 'false positive' for a narc dog on potato chips??
Ok- that kinda worries me, unless it was a dog in training? To me, that's not a 'false positive'- that's an improperly trained dog who should not be in working-mode at all. Unless the potato chips, or package, or anything in close proximity of, had come in contact with a narcotic at some point- specifically a narcotic the dog was trained to alert to.

My example of dogs liking 'dead' stuff- they usually do- most dogs do- whether working or pets. But working HRD dogs should be scent trained off of anything other than human remains- including animal remains. Just like a narc dog should be proofed off of food!

That's just alarming.

 

[pearl]

OIY!
A 'false positive' for a narc dog on potato chips??
Ok- that kinda worries me, unless it was a dog in training? To me, that's not a 'false positive'- that's an improperly trained dog who should not be in working-mode at all. Unless the potato chips, or package, or anything in close proximity of, had come in contact with a narcotic at some point- specifically a narcotic the dog was trained to alert to.

My example of dogs liking 'dead' stuff- they usually do- most dogs do- whether working or pets. But working HRD dogs should be scent trained off of anything other than human remains- including animal remains. Just like a narc dog should be proofed off of food!

That's just alarming.

What happened several years ago during this particular search was standard procedure for the lockdown, etc. Dogs were brought to each room. My students were lined up in the hallway leaving possessions, etc in classroom. I was with them. Door to room was closed. Dog was led in and stayed longer than normal. Handler called in policeman who then got another dog with another handler. Both dogs and handlers in classroom. The other dog was brought out. I was brought into the room and a desk was pointed out and I was asked about the student who sat in the desk, a boy. I told the man who it was and that I had never suspected this particular boy of using drugs, but you never know. The dog hit on this boy's insulated lunch tote in front of me. The lunch tote was searched again by the handler in my presence. No drugs were found. The tote contained a sandwich, bag of potato chips, an apple, and some candy. No drugs. The handler then told me the dog must be alerting to the potato chips because sometime some preservative used in potato chips will make the dogs alert on them. I think this particular dog belonged to a drug task force from another town. I did "alert" the student that he may not want to eat the food in his lunch tote due to it being handled by people and sniffed by the dog.
Another time we had a search, we were an administrative person short for the number of dogs brought in. An administrator accompanies each search group. Since it was my planning period, I was in the office when they came. My principal sent me with one group. The handler I accompanied had a dog that obviously just wanted to play. He took the dog into a couple of rooms, she was prancing around between rooms and very active. We went outside for a few minutes and he played some kind of game with the dog. Then it got back down to business. This dog may have still been in training. I don't know for sure. This was another drug task force dog.

 

[tomkat]

What happened several years ago during this particular search was standard procedure for the lockdown, etc. Dogs were brought to each room. My students were lined up in the hallway leaving possessions, etc in classroom. I was with them. Door to room was closed. Dog was led in and stayed longer than normal. Handler called in policeman who then got another dog with another handler. Both dogs and handlers in classroom. The other dog was brought out. I was brought into the room and a desk was pointed out and I was asked about the student who sat in the desk, a boy. I told the man who it was and that I had never suspected this particular boy of using drugs, but you never know. The dog hit on this boy's insulated lunch tote in front of me. The lunch tote was searched again by the handler in my presence. No drugs were found. The tote contained a sandwich, bag of potato chips, an apple, and some candy. No drugs. The handler then told me the dog must be alerting to the potato chips because sometime some preservative used in potato chips will make the dogs alert on them. I think this particular dog belonged to a drug task force from another town. I did "alert" the student that he may not want to eat the food in his lunch tote due to it being handled by people and sniffed by the dog.
Another time we had a search, we were an administrative person short for the number of dogs brought in. An administrator accompanies each search group. Since it was my planning period, I was in the office when they came. My principal sent me with one group. The handler I accompanied had a dog that obviously just wanted to play. He took the dog into a couple of rooms, she was prancing around between rooms and very active. We went outside for a few minutes and he played some kind of game with the dog. Then it got back down to business. This dog may have still been in training. I don't know for sure. This was another drug task force dog.

Several things here made my laugh, sorry. This sounds terrible because this gives dogs a bad name doesnt' it? I mean, how'bout the defense in McD case now, ARE any dogs reliable?? We dont' know, they only had them search out the few they were interesetd in, nothing elsewhere for comparison.............maybe they hit on CHIPS with drugs...........or god only knows what

 

[tomkat]

The smell doesnt' seem to be as bad as it used to be, in regards to Macon paper mill. Remember hearing something on it years ago in regards to cutting down on the odor. Never payed much attention since then, I guess we get used to it. ALSO, NOTICING THE RIVER IS WAYYY DOWN. Saw very large sandbars near the cemetery today.

 

[pearl]

Several things here made my laugh, sorry. This sounds terrible because this gives dogs a bad name doesnt' it? I mean, how'bout the defense in McD case now, ARE any dogs reliable?? We dont' know, they only had them search out the few they were interesetd in, nothing elsewhere for comparison.............maybe they hit on CHIPS with drugs...........or god only knows what

Yes, Tomkat, many things in my 30 years in the classroom are funny in hindsight. Just proves Murphy's Law if anything can go wrong, it will. I do not personally know any dog handlers or their dogs. However, there was a minimum security prison in the town where I grew up (back in the 1960s) and escapes were common there. The prison officers would borrow my father's black and tan coonhound to use in the search for the escapees. A number of sporting dogs from the local area were used. Daddy's dog would trail a human scent because we played cops and robbers with him. All we had to do was let him smell something that belonged to the person who got to be robber. Off he would go and find this person.
On a serious level, I think the particular dogs and handlers used in SM's case will be under intense scrutiny by the defense. Let's hope they stand up. We know these search and rescue dogs do their jobs. Just think of the World Trade Center site after 9/11. I remember reading somewhere about people hiding so the search and rescue dogs could find a live person because the dogs were showing signs of depression because no survivors were being found. I have learned many things just from reading Oriah's posts. I did not realize that training a dog would involve kind of a process of elimination of types of scents that you did not want a dog to alert on.
I know there is an obvious difference in my two dogs. The golden retriever will use his nose to occasionally follow some scent. The bassett hound, on the other hand, has his nose to the ground constantly following some scent. When I walk the bassett, we take a meandering path because he goes where his nose leads him and seems oblivious to his surroundings.

 

[Oriah]

Yes, Tomkat, many things in my 30 years in the classroom are funny in hindsight. Just proves Murphy's Law if anything can go wrong, it will. I do not personally know any dog handlers or their dogs. However, there was a minimum security prison in the town where I grew up (back in the 1960s) and escapes were common there. The prison officers would borrow my father's black and tan coonhound to use in the search for the escapees. A number of sporting dogs from the local area were used. Daddy's dog would trail a human scent because we played cops and robbers with him. All we had to do was let him smell something that belonged to the person who got to be robber. Off he would go and find this person.
On a serious level, I think the particular dogs and handlers used in SM's case will be under intense scrutiny by the defense. Let's hope they stand up. We know these search and rescue dogs do their jobs. Just think of the World Trade Center site after 9/11. I remember reading somewhere about people hiding so the search and rescue dogs could find a live person because the dogs were showing signs of depression because no survivors were being found. I have learned many things just from reading Oriah's posts. I did not realize that training a dog would involve kind of a process of elimination of types of scents that you did not want a dog to alert on.
I know there is an obvious difference in my two dogs. The golden retriever will use his nose to occasionally follow some scent. The bassett hound, on the other hand, has his nose to the ground constantly following some scent. When I walk the bassett, we take a meandering path because he goes where his nose leads him and seems oblivious to his surroundings.

God bless your daddy for loaning his dog to LE (and for obviously teaching you to love and respect dogs!)

But I am now fervently praying that the dogs used in Lauren's case were not red haired blue ticks, ala Blake Shelton. Because the South is heavy on that type of 'training'....and I am fearful of them getting ripped apart by defense.

Lauren needs justice- and working dogs need to be able to 'speak' honestly and with specificity, in court.

I hope and pray that happens for Lauren.

 

[pearl]

I did some googling and this article refers to a sherriff's office K-9 search team in Lauren's case

http://www.newscentralga.com/news/l...hes-Giddings-Apartment-Complex-125209749.html

 

[Oriah]

Thanks, pearl. I think it's interesting that the article mentions 'in and around Macon's downtown". I missed that earlier.

 

[tomkat]

Yes, Tomkat, many things in my 30 years in the classroom are funny in hindsight. Just proves Murphy's Law if anything can go wrong, it will. I do not personally know any dog handlers or their dogs. However, there was a minimum security prison in the town where I grew up (back in the 1960s) and escapes were common there. The prison officers would borrow my father's black and tan coonhound to use in the search for the escapees. A number of sporting dogs from the local area were used. Daddy's dog would trail a human scent because we played cops and robbers with him. All we had to do was let him smell something that belonged to the person who got to be robber. Off he would go and find this person.
On a serious level, I think the particular dogs and handlers used in SM's case will be under intense scrutiny by the defense. Let's hope they stand up. We know these search and rescue dogs do their jobs. Just think of the World Trade Center site after 9/11. I remember reading somewhere about people hiding so the search and rescue dogs could find a live person because the dogs were showing signs of depression because no survivors were being found. I have learned many things just from reading Oriah's posts. I did not realize that training a dog would involve kind of a process of elimination of types of scents that you did not want a dog to alert on.
I know there is an obvious difference in my two dogs. The golden retriever will use his nose to occasionally follow some scent. The bassett hound, on the other hand, has his nose to the ground constantly following some scent. When I walk the bassett, we take a meandering path because he goes where his nose leads him and seems oblivious to his surroundings.

I'm not being negative necessarily MYSELF, because there is more going on here in LG case than the dog hits (i pray) but the modern trial by jury seems to be for the prosecution not to give all the necessary information to the jury and for the defense to spin some crazy story (not necessarily truthful to cause doubt) so if you dont' get the whole picture, the jury certainly may not believe in the dogs ! I do pray that's not the case in LG case however

 

[pearl]

Tomkat,
I don't think you are being negative at all. I also think the search dogs in this case will probably be a big issue when and if SM goes to trial. My family and now I have surrounded ourselves with dogs as pets and working partners all of our lives. Although, I now prefer cats as pets. We have had sporting dogs and working dogs for cattle. I know from our dogs that the dog doing its job is only as good as the trainer and handler and the dog's own inclination for whatever job it is being trained to do.. I don't know much about the different dog teams used in middle and southeastern GA. I know that not all county LE have their own. The prison system has mantrailers and they have put on demonstrations at our school. I think these search dogs have to have certification and provable positive working experiences. I, like you, hope that the dogs used in Macon this past summer can withstand a defense mounted attack. I can't remember, did LE search the 3 apartments only after the dogs alerted? If so, maybe a problem there.

 

[MaconMom]

SMD due back in court next week:

http://m.macon.com/macon/db_284311/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=yLc9Ooff

 

[Backwoods]

This is pretty big news:

Macon attorney Franklin Hogue joins Stephen McDaniel defense team

Macon attorney Franklin J. Hogue will help defend the man accused in the dismemberment slaying of Lauren Giddings, a woman Hogue taught at Mercer University’s law school in the months before she was killed.


Hogue, who has death penalty trial experience, joins lawyer Floyd Buford, who has represented murder suspect Stephen McDaniel since McDaniel was jailed last summer. ...

read more at: http://www.macon.com/2012/01/20/1870474/mcdaniel-team-adds-member.html

I imagine that Hogue is arguably considered by many one of the best defense attorneys in the area. I believe he and Buford have worked together before, if I am remembering correctly. (ETA: Yep, just read the rest of the article, and it says they have.)

Hogue also gave an interview about some of his thoughts on the case early on -- before, of course, he joined the team. (If I can find the link, I will post it.)

More very interesting news from the same article -- the "rope" bracelet is not missing, after all:

...A silver-and-gold rope bracelet that belonged to Giddings, one her boyfriend gave her for Christmas in 2010 -- and one he thought was missing -- turned out not to be lost after all.


Giddings’ sister, Kaitlyn Wheeler, said Thursday that her family has had the bracelet all along, that there had been some confusion over which piece of Lauren’s jewelry hadn’t been accounted for. A diamond necklace Lauren’s boyfriend gave her on her 26th birthday has not been found.

ETA: Here's the link with Hogue's comments back around the time of the commitment hearing:

http://www.13wmaz.com/video/1129111771001/0/Defense-Attorney-Franklin-Hogue-on-Lauren-Giddings-Case

 

[Oriah]

Thank you, Backwoods. I hope Lauren is looking down favorably, considering her passion for criminal defense.

I wish there was more information on the necklace (since now we know the bracelet was not missing at all.)
I can't imagine it would still be with Lauren's remains- unless placed there specifically?

 

[AgentFrankLundy]

Glad we cleared the bracelet thing up , but the apparently more valuable necklace is still unaccounted for . Interesting. The Hogue development and the continued belief by SMcD's family that he is innocent is also interesting. I still find it heartbreaking that they are going to go to all of the financial trouble to see this thing through. It will ruin them, more than it already has. Such a shame and a waste all the way around. Hogue is very good. Reading between the lines his main objective will be to save Stephen from the needle.That should not be hard to do given that there are so many questions we still do not have answers to about this case and what all evidence the DA actually has against McD. But kudos to Tomkat, who observed : " "When you lose control of the flow of information, you dont' know what you've lost............" Perhaps Winters is doing a great job of that here. Or,.... perhaps,...... they just don't have anything solid. Time will tell.

 

[Knox]

I'm of the opinion McD is unerringly Guilty, there is no doubt in my mind he murdered Lauren. I don't have much confidence he will confess, but still hoping he will do the right thing and a plea agreement could be worked out prior to his arraignment.

I absolutely hate the thought of Lauren's family having to sit through a trial. I also hate the thought of McD's parent's or his Grandfather mortgaging their homes or any other assets, to pay for his representation. I'm guessing that a DP case runs over a million, perhaps even close to two million.

 

[pearl]

Can there still be a change of venue for this trial? I'm beginning to think that may be a good idea. The interconnectedness (if that is even a word) of the legal community in Macon is starting to alarm me.