IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[thefragile7393]

Thank you Dr. D. What you post makes sense....I've felt for a while that the truth was in the perimeters that you stated. Since you're now involved in some small way in this case I look forward to more of your posts as things progress.

 

[Chicken Hawk]

I am very glad Dr. Doogie is working on this case, to whatever degree. Like I've stated before, I'm a fence sitter on this. I believe something happened other than a "normal" kidnapping, but never quiet saw all the way to the top of the government. I think the important thing is to find out what happened to Johnny then see where that leads, as I believe Dr. Doogie has stated.

 

[Mr. E]

Regarding underground tunnels, I think they are more common than people realize. When I was a kid, an elementary school I attended was connected by underground tunnels to a nearby junior high. The cafeteria was in those tunnels. Later, when I went to college, there was a labyrinth of tunnels beneath the university. People used to go down there to play D&D games, kind of like that horrible book/movie from the 80s, Mazes and Monsters. That tunnels like those could be used for nefarious purposes is absolutely believable to me.

 

[youshouldveknown]

Mr. E, what part of the US did you attend school and university in?

 

[Mr. E]

The elementary school as in northern Minnesota; the university was the University of Oregon.

I've been trying to find pictures of the tunnels under the elementary school. I remember them clearly. They were painted green and they were tunnel-shaped, not square. We lined up to eat in a tunnel, then the cafeteria was in a chamber. There was a distinct smell -- food and mop water and dampness.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I wonder how many underground tunnels and chambers are relics of the Cold War efforts to create viable bomb-shelters. There was a major push to make a nuclear war "survivable" and these shelters must still be in existence today in older buildings.

 

[Mr. E]

I have a very vague memory of seeing those little yellow radiation placards around, but I have no idea if the tunnels were built for those purposes, or just able to be used for those purposes. I do remember having drills down there where we all had to line the tunnels, facing inward, rolled into balls. Tornado drills, I suppose they were. We did have nuclear drills, but I only remember those as being in our classrooms, where we were asked to crouch beneath our desks. Yes, the wooden school desks would save us all from nuclear winter!

The elementary school was (and still is, I suppose) for grades 1-2, so I was very young, and my memories of that time are sketchy at best.

 

[kline]

I was in the middle of posting a reply when the system booted me out, even though I was logged in. Has that ever happened to anyone?

My reply was: I would like to see pigs fly, but it's not going to happen. Does anyone of sound mind actually believe that the President of the United States of America could possibly be involved in a pedophile ring? Get back on your meds, people.

One of the avenues of my livelihood is crime writing, and I've spoken with many professional investigators. All of them--not most, not some--but ALL of them have told me that the simplest, most obvious explanation is the correct one to pursue. Why invent a "ring" when a perfectly legitimate suspect, a serial kidnapper, lived right in the neighborhood? And with regard to a "conspiracy": the Mafia conspired for years, and initially no one knew who to pin the blame on. But they left EVIDENCE behind, calling cards, as it were. (Generally in the form of pulverized dead bodies.) Same with the Hell's Angels. But people on this link want us to believe that an invisiblem evidence-free, worldwide conspiracy exists, and further, that its invisibility and very LACK of evidence function as proofs of its existence! I'm sorry to say this, but as I wrote in an earlier post, some of these rantings could have (should have?) blown out the windows of a mental home.

Either Noreen Gosch is an exhibitionistic fraud or she's the most deluded human being on the face of the earth. Either situation is very sad indeed.

:clap::clap::clap:
I have nothing but sympathy for his Mother.
But playing into her delusion is not doing her or Johnny a service.
The dense mythology of nonsense that has been built up around this case is ridiculous.
Tunnels and Pedo Rings reaching to Executive Branches of government.Good Lord.
He's dead. Killed by a pedophile that dumped him some place he wasnt ever found and the killer is probably deceased himself.
And please spare the 'we dont know what happened so we cant rule anything out' B.S. I dont know for sure he wasnt abducted by Aliens but I think its a pretty safe bet he wasnt.I think we can safely rule out the Black Helicopters too.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I do not believe that he is dead. I have spoken to people who supposedly are in regular communication with him (in person, not some anonymous person in chat claiming to be Johnny). Based on what I have heard from others, I have a general idea of where he is at and what he is doing to stay hidden. He is in a safe place but is fearful of his safety if he leaves that place. Efforts are in the works to establish that he truly is Johnny (or John, as he currently prefers to be called). Once that is confirmed, then everyone will concentrate on paving the way for his return.

Now, of course, there is the possibility that I and others are being conned. If so, it is not Noreen doing the conning - she would be a victim like the rest of us. And understand - I do not think that this is a con. Again, I do not buy the big conspiracy (going up to the White House), but something is going on beyond a simple "snatch / rape / kill" crime.

 

[Mr. E]

I think the photos of Johnny point toward the fact that it wasn't a simple "snatch/rape/kill" scenario. I would suspect that such a scenario would result in the victim's murder and burial within 24 hours. Photos of Johnny show his abuse lasted for a considerable length of time.

 

[kline]

If you buy that the photos are of Johnny.

 

[thefragile7393]

Interesting Dr. D, very interesting. Truely I hope you are not being conned...I really do. Since you are the one actively having a part in this case, your discoveries hopefully should give the "Noreen is completely crazy" people something to think about. The focus shouldn't be on Noreen, and if one can't get past some of the craziness that has been put into this case by some of the people surrounding her and look at facts and real possibilities, then why bother following this case at all?

 

[mae]

I have stated before that I remain unconvinced about a large conspiracy of high-level politicians, law enforcement and military-industrial elites involved in organized pedophilia. My suspicion is that what happened to Johnny falls somewhere between being kidnapped by a lone predator and falling prey to a huge quasi-governmental child-sex ring. Well, I recently received somewhat of a confirmation of my beliefs.

I was contacted by a man who was personally involved with this group as a victim. (I will not mention names or details about him at his request, but he is positively someone who is a position to know the workings of what happened to Johnny.) He told me that Johnny was taken by a ring of pedophiles, but that this group was basically localized in the midwest area. He stated that this ring was involved in several of the cluster of child abductions in this area. They did have a certain amount of political clout which allows them a level of protection, but that the idea of a huge conspiracy involving the highest levels of government was incorrect. It appears to me that this means that much of the data that has been presented is correct, but that the believers of a big conspiracy have mis-interpeted the data and assigned too large of an explaination for that data.

As I have stated in previous posts, this case has had many myths and legends attach themselves to it. Some are surely false, but some may be true. If we focus on the more outlandish of the claims, it will be easy to dismiss all of them. But remember, a boy named Johnny Gosch did disappear as did several other young boys around the same time and location. If we start with that fact and work our way forward, then we will be able to uncover what happened and who was involved.

Thanks for your post. This is interesting. I appreciate the points you make.

 

[Mr. E]

If you buy that the photos are of Johnny.

This letter from the NCMEC seems to suggest that they, at least, buy that the photos of Johnny.
http://www.johnnygosch.com/images/Letter1.gif

 

[Chicken Hawk]

Interesting Dr. D, very interesting. Truely I hope you are not being conned...I really do. Since you are the one actively having a part in this case, your discoveries hopefully should give the "Noreen is completely crazy" people something to think about. The focus shouldn't be on Noreen, and if one can't get past some of the craziness that has been put into this case by some of the people surrounding her and look at facts and real possibilities, then why bother following this case at all?

I couldn't have said it better myself! I am hopeful that Johnny/John can come forward soon. For his sake as well as his mothers. I am praying this isn't a con.

 

[Brice]

This letter from the NCMEC seems to suggest that they, at least, buy that the photos of Johnny.
http://www.johnnygosch.com/images/Letter1.gif

I think they are taking it at her word that the photos are of him since she sent them to the NCMEC. They didn't come outright and verify that they are of Johnny. Probably because that's not why the photos were sent to them.

I don't believe the photos are of Johnny based on the photos we have to compare.

 

[Mr. E]

I don't know, Brice. I find it hard to believe that an organization like NCMEC would just play along with Noreen, or just take her word for it. That would weaken or nullify their validity, and they are a legitimate organization. They could just as easily have said, "You provided NCMEC photographic images of a boy you believe to be your son." The wording of the letter makes me believe that they believe the child is Johnny. And I think they have more pictures to look at, and I know they have better computers for enhancing the pictures.

 

[laini]

Dr. Doogie- Has Eugene Martin been brought up at all in your research?
It is my opinion that Johnny and Eugene met the same fate and are probably buried somewhere in Iowa. But that's just my gut feeling. I was just curious if his name has come up.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/martin_eugene.html

 

[mysterymax]

The term "true believer" is employed widely among academic sociologists to describe a particular personality cluster that results in a behavioral synrdrome; it is not intended as a "put down." It is unfortunate that Ms. Gosch appears to present such a personality cluster; unfortunate as well that she would rather perceive her son as alive and in constant terror for his life than dead and at rest. Her insecurity and belief system mirror each other: this is how she keeps her son alive in her mind.

 

[youshouldveknown]

What difference does it make what Ms. Gosch believes?

Here at websleuths, we read through the evidence, the plethora of theories, any information that is accessible to us. We also realize that just because she says it, doesn't make it accurate.

It's okay. As far as I am aware, we aren't collaborating with Noreen Gosch to pull the wool over anyone's eyes regarding our federal government and their sex practices.

However, lets just say it's hypothetically possible that her theory is true. Hypothetically, boys and girls have been and possibly are being stolen today and being used as sex slaves and child prostitutes for the local and federal goverment.

Hypothetically, wouldn't it need to be stopped? Or hypothetically, should we all ignore it as a hypothetic impossiblity and continue believing that said children are dead and resting in peace when, hypothetically, they're being raped and abused?

This is all hypothetical, of course.