IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[justtrish]

The interest in RA getting the death penalty sent me on a search. This case has so many surprises that it's hard to say what McL will do. MOO Maybe he'll seek the DP just to show he means business? They don't even much luck in getting cop killers sentenced to death.

Snips from the article:
"With no executions in more than a decade and no new death sentences since 2014, Indiana’s costly death penalty has reached a “de facto moratorium,” says Indiana Capital Chronicle editor-in-chief Niki Kelly. “
Over the last decade, Indiana prosecutors have sought the death penalty six time in cases involving the killing of a police officer. None of those cases resulted in a death sentence."

Commentary: Indiana Death Penalty — Expensive, Unreliable, and Withering on the Vine

The Death Penalty Information Center is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information about capital punishment.…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

I went through some of the cases we have covered and are covering; only 2 have asked for the DP.
Police officers killed by the following:
Jason Brown had a DP request but received 58 years.
Orlando Mitchell has a DP request (no trial yet)
Eddie Jones: ran down a police officer (no trial yet, no DP yet)

Others who have killed multiple people but no DP requests:
Cohen B Hancz-Barron: 4 murdered (sentenced)
Lemere Jones: 3 murdered (sentenced)
Raymond Childs: 6 murdered (no trial yet)
Malik Halfacre: 4 murdered (no trial yet)

Interesting info here.

I think what RA did (I believe he did this and he acted alone) is pretty high on my list of horrific things a person can do and I'd put it above killing a police officer. I think often killing a police officer is a snap decision because you are caught or you are on drugs or something that makes you feel you have no other choice. I don't think that makes it okay at all, I just think the frame of mind is important.

What RA did by abducting them, taking them to the isolated location and then murdering them (and whatever else he did before that, which I think was something awful) AND then he lived in the town and worked in a store that the victims families visited often. I just can't get over the type of person that it takes to do that. It was not a snap decision, he wasn't caught by police, fearing being in prison forever, or whatever else those who take the life of a police officer are thinking. He had so many chances to not do what he ulitmately did and he did it anyway.

I am not saying I don't think those that kill police shouldn't get the DP. I am saying what RA did I think goes above the acts that often are committed when a person kills someone in LE.

 

[Emma Peel]

Because she has an extremely full docket being in Allen Co. At the Oct. in-chambers hearing, she had not even finished reading the Frank's memorandum and/or attached exhibits. Now she is also the Administrative Judge for the Criminal Division. On top of that, she recently had some unknown health issues that put her in the hospital. So through no fault of her own, she might simply not have the time to keep up with the enormity of this case in addition to her other duties. This is JMO, of course, and I'm sure if she has to, she can handle it, but not being rushed into doing it in 70 days would probably be preferable to her. JMO.

So now I'm really curious what AB and BR plan to do next. I don't think anything will be decided until the SCOIN's full explanation for their ruling comes out, because that will matter, but then what? If they want to file for a speedy trial, then I don't think they'll file for recusal of JG...that would take too long. Plus, I don't think she's ready for trial, so that might give them the upper-hand. She might even recuse herself on that basis. IDK. Do they adopt the new ex-D's motion to have RA moved out of Wabash? Do they file something against the amended charges motion? I think the next month or two could be very busy. JMO.

Good questions/points all around and I've been noodling similarly.

Where's the priority: appearance of bias ... or speedy trial.
It all plays into D strategy for both trial and appeal.

Also - what's the practical delay with a new Judge - 2 weeks to appoint one?
Defense might feel that's worth it.

IMO - there's no significant delay for a Judge getting caught up on this case to date.
It's just reading - and any new Judge will have a clerk(s) that will aide with prioritizing reads.

Is there an alternate argument is to go with the devil you know - a biased judge now under a microscope?

All parties will await the full decision before making their moves. As I've mentioned, there's more than one graceful way out for Gull's self-determined recusal.

I'd be surprised if R & B did not motion for recusal simply to preserve a record of their great concerns over judicial bias for appeal.

all JMHO

 

[Caylee Advocate]

 

[girlhasnoname]

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen faces 4 new charges. Why that matters​

MSN

The distinction between the two types of murders is that murder in the commission of a felony accuses Allen of kidnapping 14-year-old Libby and 13-year-old Abby, forcing them off of the trails east of Delphi near the Monon High Bridge, and in the process of the kidnapping, the girls were killed. Under that charge, prosecutors wouldn't necessarily have to prove Allen was the actual killer.
The charges of murder filed Thursday accuse Allen of the act of killing the girls on Feb. 13, 2017, on the banks of the Deer Creek, about a quarter of a mile east of the Monon High Bridge.

Yes, I think the State has more definitive evidence linking RA to not only the bridge but the murder(s) scene.

 

[photographer4]

Yes, I think the State has more definitive evidence linking RA to not only the bridge but the murder(s) scene.

Realistically, what could they possibly have gotten suddenly that they didn't have until this week? Really curious as to what people think this "new" evidence could be? Did someone come forward with more information? Someone found a link between RA and the kids on a device that was previously not known about? What on earth could this be and why do we only hear about it on the date of the SCION hearing?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Interesting info here.

I think what RA did (I believe he did this and he acted alone) is pretty high on my list of horrific things a person can do and I'd put it above killing a police officer. I think often killing a police officer is a snap decision because you are caught or you are on drugs or something that makes you feel you have no other choice. I don't think that makes it okay at all, I just think the frame of mind is important.

What RA did by abducting them, taking them to the isolated location and then murdering them (and whatever else he did before that, which I think was something awful) AND then he lived in the town and worked in a store that the victims families visited often. I just can't get over the type of person that it takes to do that. It was not a snap decision, he wasn't caught by police, fearing being in prison forever, or whatever else those who take the life of a police officer are thinking. He had so many chances to not do what he ulitmately did and he did it anyway.

I am not saying I don't think those that kill police shouldn't get the DP. I am saying what RA did I think goes above the acts that often are committed when a person kills someone in LE.

I'm not a strong supporter of the death penalty. I've always wrestled with the idea, can't seem to clearly define what circumstances I'm ok with it.

Alan Matheny was put to death for murdering Lisa Bianco and I was good with that. When death row inmate William Gibson goes to meet his maker, I'll be good with that, too. Maybe that's because there's no remorse.

We have cases where people do horrid things to small children before they murder them but they don't get DP.
I'm always glad I don't have to make DP decisions.

 

[justtrish]

I'm not a strong supporter of the death penalty. I've always wrestled with the idea, can't seem to clearly define what circumstances I'm ok with it.

Alan Matheny was put to death for murdering Lisa Bianco and I was good with that. When death row inmate William Gibson goes to meet his maker, I'll be good with that, too. Maybe that's because there's no remorse.

We have cases where people do horrid things to small children before they murder them but they don't get DP.
I'm always glad I don't have to make DP decisions.

Absolutely I agree! I used to be strongly for it. I studied it and wrote several college papers on it. As I have aged and lived and learned so they say, I feel differently. I can feel for all sides (victims and the murderers family) and it's hard to have such a hard stance on it as I once did. I think we are human and most of us don't happily say we want others to die (even if as a punishment for horrific things). I do think there are crimes that just are worthy of the punishment.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Emma Peel You asked how long it would take to appoint a special judge.
The answer is: Not long if you are Judge Diener.
Judge Gull's appointment to RA's case: Case 22S-SJ-00369

11/03/2022	Order Issued Order of Recusal and Certification to the Indiana Supreme Court for Selection of a Special Judge Outside of Carroll County entered, per form. (copy to Indiana Supreme Court) Judicial Officer: Diener, Benjamin A. Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022
11/04/2022	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Carroll County Sheriff's Department
11/04/2022	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland
11/04/2022	Special Judge Assigned Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022

 

[DeDee]

@Emma Peel You asked how long it would take to appoint a special judge.
The answer is: Not long if you are Judge Diener.
Judge Gull's appointment to RA's case: Case 22S-SJ-00369

11/03/2022	Order Issued Order of Recusal and Certification to the Indiana Supreme Court for Selection of a Special Judge Outside of Carroll County entered, per form. (copy to Indiana Supreme Court) Judicial Officer: Diener, Benjamin A. Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022
11/04/2022	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Carroll County Sheriff's Department
11/04/2022	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland
11/04/2022	Special Judge Assigned Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022

Well, isn't that peculiar? The trial was lobbed over to Judge Gull when Judge Diener recused himself in NOV 2022. Now, Judge Gull is lobbing the same case back to Judge Diener's court.

If the P discovered more, additional, and fruitful ties between RA and the CS, then perhaps the D will switch or adjust strategies accordingly. We may see justice this year y'all.

Weighing in on the DP discussion to add that re: the horrendous murders of Abby and Libby, their killer or killers, and any and all participants, deserve the death penalty. I would have no qualms whatsoever with that decision. JMHOO

 

[katydid23]

From previous closed thread:

posted by GirlHasNoName:
"Looks like Rozzi & Baldwin are going to be busy guys, the State has added them as potential witnesses to be called during the MW (CS photo and other doc leaker ) case. "


This^^^ upcoming trial intrigues me. Why is MW wanting g to go to trial on something he has already confessed to?

What does he have to gain? It seems to me there will be some bad facts brought out in that trial. Are they going to discuss his friend's suicide? Are they going to discuss his theft of the pictures of naked young deceased girls and if it was premeditated? And what his motives were?

Why does he want any of those issues on the public record when he could just quietly make a plea deal of some kind?

Is he trying to help Rozzi and Baldwin or is this designed to muddy the waters somehow?

 

[Emma Peel]

@Emma Peel You asked how long it would take to appoint a special judge.
The answer is: Not long if you are Judge Diener.
Judge Gull's appointment to RA's case: Case 22S-SJ-00369

11/03/2022	Order Issued Order of Recusal and Certification to the Indiana Supreme Court for Selection of a Special Judge Outside of Carroll County entered, per form. (copy to Indiana Supreme Court) Judicial Officer: Diener, Benjamin A. Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022
11/04/2022	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Carroll County Sheriff's Department
11/04/2022	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland Order Issued ---- 11/3/2022 : Nicholas Charles McLeland
11/04/2022	Special Judge Assigned Noticed: McLeland, Nicholas Charles Noticed: Allen, Richard M. Order Signed: 11/03/2022

Wow, thank you @FrostedGlass
That's what I'm talkin' 'bout. LOL. Speedy enough.
I didn't think assigning a new judge was a big hurdle.
At this point, the public interest in this case ... some Judges might decide to pass, and other might find that to be a good old challenge, suiting their temperaments and aspirations.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

From previous closed thread:

posted by GirlHasNoName:
"Looks like Rozzi & Baldwin are going to be busy guys, the State has added them as potential witnesses to be called during the MW (CS photo and other doc leaker ) case. "


This^^^ upcoming trial intrigues me. Why is MW wanting g to go to trial on something he has already confessed to?

What does he have to gain? It seems to me there will be some bad facts brought out in that trial. Are they going to discuss his friend's suicide? Are they going to discuss his theft of the pictures of naked young deceased girls and if it was premeditated? And what his motives were?

Why does he want any of those issues on the public record when he could just quietly make a plea deal of some kind?

Is he trying to help Rozzi and Baldwin or is this designed to muddy the waters somehow?

This intrigues me as well. I wonder if the truth is even stranger than what we have been told thus far. Maybe the affidavit was signed under duress or coercion, or false promises of defense. Perhaps he was included in the strategy of defense and permitted access to the discovery, maybe he was even permitted to share with others ( electronically) that had also been included in defense strategy sessions. If someone had not let the cat out of the bag- no harm no foul. But it did and they scrambled to do damage control. More to save the reputation of the firm than that of their client.

MW and his case stay very much on my radar. It seems he did not have counsel he expected to have in early days. I think there could be bad blood both ways between him and AB.

 

[Emma Peel]

From previous closed thread:

posted by GirlHasNoName:
"Looks like Rozzi & Baldwin are going to be busy guys, the State has added them as potential witnesses to be called during the MW (CS photo and other doc leaker ) case. "


This^^^ upcoming trial intrigues me. Why is MW wanting g to go to trial on something he has already confessed to?

What does he have to gain? It seems to me there will be some bad facts brought out in that trial. Are they going to discuss his friend's suicide? Are they going to discuss his theft of the pictures of naked young deceased girls and if it was premeditated? And what his motives were?

Why does he want any of those issues on the public record when he could just quietly make a plea deal of some kind?

Is he trying to help Rozzi and Baldwin or is this designed to muddy the waters somehow?

Rozzi and Baldwin are named as witnesses on this case as victims.

Westerman's not denying what he did but he is fighting the charges (category); he believes the charges are incorrect (he wants a misdemeanor not a criminal misdemeanor).

He's not charged w/ CSA possession.
He's not charged w/ distribution of the "converted" items.
He's not charged w/ selling the "converted" items.

Westerman is fighting the charges, while not denying the act he's been charged with.
Likely, he'll argue the conversion charge is incorrect. He did what he did, but it doesn't meet definition of conversion.

250 pages of criminal investigation and 6 video interviews and the best they could do = a criminal misdemeanor "conversion". Far cry from a conspiracy.

As to last Q bolded - Neither.
Judge Gull's gross negligence/incompetence removal decision against B & R (the victims of Westerman-the-criminal-converter) was tossed out the SCOIN window Thursday.
R & B were reinstated as RA's public defender by Indiana's highest court.

The thorough investigation above yielded ONE misdemeanor charge (Westerman's conversion).
This strongly suggests that the internet conspiracies in bold above ... have crash-landed.

Westerman Magic 8-Ball says: Friendless, but fighting.

JMHO

 

[Willow Knight]

Hope I am doing this correctly. Copied from: @steeltowngirl Post 999 previous thread.

From this list below, do we know who the initials are?

The prosecution’s witness list per 1/18 filing.

Witnesses:
Kathy Allen
Betsy Blair
Stephen Buckley
Sarah Carbaugh
Matthew Clemans
Jeremy Clinton
Daniel C. Dulin
Josh Edwards
Kelsi German
Jay Harper
Brian Harshman
Jerry Holeman
David Vito
R.V.
B.W.
Terry Wilson
William Kauffers
Tony Liggett
Wesley McWhirter
Stephen Mullin
Melissa Oberg
A.J. Smith
A.S.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Information-New.pdf

 

[mrjitty]

Good questions/points all around and I've been noodling similarly.

Where's the priority: appearance of bias ... or speedy trial.
It all plays into D strategy for both trial and appeal.

Also - what's the practical delay with a new Judge - 2 weeks to appoint one?
Defense might feel that's worth it.

IMO - there's no significant delay for a Judge getting caught up on this case to date.
It's just reading - and any new Judge will have a clerk(s) that will aide with prioritizing reads.

RSBM - as we now know from the transcripts, Judge Gull had to read over 1000 pages of evidence and watch many hours of depositions video related to the Franks hearing.

There's also the question of what other pretrial evidentiary motions the defence intends to bring.

Factor in a recusal hearing on top.

Personally I doubt they will file a speedy trial motion any time soon, but that is my wild speculation. But they surely knew SCOIN was not going to grant that relief.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yeah...I just don't see the purpose in pursuing the DP. If 50 year old RA is convicted, on any one of the charges, he will likely never get out of prison before he dies. Even if it became a DP case and he pleads, he's still not going to get a sentence light enough to benefit him, IMO. Most probably he'll face multiple convictions and consecutive sentences, each with 45 - 65 years, or whatever. There's not much room in that, IMO.

IANAL, so maybe I'm missing something big, but I see a DP case as spent time and money for a very similar outcome. Now, if it's a power play, setting precedence, or something like that, okay, but is the end result really worth it? I guess that's a question for NMcL. IDK.

To me sometimes a murder so depraved and so brutal against 2 innocent young girls deserves the DP sentence. Whether he dies of natural causes before then or whatever may happen in prison does not negate the total disregard of the lives of these 2 girls. The murderer(s) should have to carry that label if found guilty IMO.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Hope I am doing this correctly. Copied from: @steeltowngirl Post 999 previous thread.

From this list below, do we know who the initials are?

The prosecution’s witness list per 1/18 filing.

Witnesses:
Kathy Allen
Betsy Blair
Stephen Buckley
Sarah Carbaugh
Matthew Clemans
Jeremy Clinton
Daniel C. Dulin
Josh Edwards
Kelsi German
Jay Harper
Brian Harshman
Jerry Holeman
David Vito
R.V.
B.W.
Terry Wilson
William Kauffers
Tony Liggett
Wesley McWhirter
Stephen Mullin
Melissa Oberg
A.J. Smith
A.S.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Information-New.pdf

I believe they are three of the four witnesses who were underage at the time the crime took place. Their names were unredacted in some initial filings.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Realistically, what could they possibly have gotten suddenly that they didn't have until this week? Really curious as to what people think this "new" evidence could be? Did someone come forward with more information? Someone found a link between RA and the kids on a device that was previously not known about? What on earth could this be and why do we only hear about it on the date of the SCION hearing?

My post said 'definitive' evidence, not new. I think there could be any number of reasons this was just revealed in a Motion by the State (rather than a cheap, tawdry memo or Press Release). The State is ready for trial, this cements that idea for me. They added a special assistant Prosecutor months ago to the case and they've had all this time that we've been waiting on a ruling.

The only ones shaking in their boots is going to be R&B now that they've won their 'prize', let's see how long it is before their 15 minutes of fame quickly fades from the SM groups and and the reality of this case sinks in. IMO

They had other legal avenues to appeal their DQ by JG, that were the typical ways of handling things, but they chose to appeal to the SCOIN for, in their statement, "the speed of getting a quick decision, since they were ready to go on Jan 14." I am anxious to see what R&B do now. Put your $$$ where your mouth is fellas and lets get it on.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

To me sometimes a murder so depraved and so brutal against 2 innocent young girls deserves the DP sentence. Whether he dies of natural causes before then or whatever may happen in prison does not negate the total disregard of the lives of these 2 girls. The murderer(s) should have to carry that label if found guilty IMO.

JMO

I hear you on this. What I would like to know is where RA's actions came from that day, if he's guilty. I know motive doesn't have to be proven and all that, but this guy came out of left field. Where are his priors? If he is guilty, and doesn't at least have a bunch of violent images on his digital devices, I'll be shocked.

But DP or not, he'll be labeled a child murderer in prison, and that might well be worse than death. Jmo.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I hear you on this. What I would like to know is where RA's actions came from that day, if he's guilty. I know motive doesn't have to be proven and all that, but this guy came out of left field. Where are his priors? If he is guilty, and doesn't at least have a bunch of violent images on his digital devices, I'll be shocked.

But DP or not, he'll be labeled a child murderer in prison, and that might well be worse than death. Jmo.

You and me both!

Prosecution won’t need to prove a motive, but I think the jury will want to know the “why”. Why those two girls, why that day?

I recently started watching MindHunter.
In one scene, the FBI profilers ask killer Monte Rissell: why?
He answers: “The idea just popped into my head like a sneeze.“

Maybe that’s all there was to it.

jmo