IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[TL4S]

As Scremin & Lebrato made it clear in their transfer motion that they saw merit in the Franks Memo O-Theory ... in what way does #7 surprise you?

Yes, they say it has merit, which by itself could mean any or all parts. They didn't specify the Odinism details, I don't think...

But, here is JG's chosen Allen county PDs' investigator including in writing, in a formal court document, that symbolism and rituals associated with Odinism appear to be present in the crime scene photos. IMO, that makes it much harder to dismiss what was said in regards to Odinism in the FM. The investigator is talking about Odinism as it relates to white supremacy in the prison system. We can say or think what we'd like about the FM and the Odin stuff, but I can't ignore the fact that:

• Three LE officers investigated the Rushville line, and Click still thinks what was said about their investigation in the FM is correct (except that it wasn't a ritualistic killing).
• The four court-appointed public defenders all have taken issue with Odinism patches/tattoos on guards and the guards' behavior at Westville, and mentioned the possible ties to white supremacy.
• An investigator for Allen county PDs claims there are Odin symbols at the crime scene.
• An expert on Norse religion claimed that the killer likely had Norse beliefs.

I'm not saying I buy all the Odin stuff, or that A and L were ritualistically killed, or killed by white supremacists because one of their parents was dating someone from a different race. However, perhaps there was something at the crime scene, maybe even things we don't yet know about, that give that impression of Norse beliefs, or as the investigator included in his paragraph - white supremacy beliefs, whether it has anything to do with the murders or not. Maybe it came out involuntarily...like a signature.

Scremin and Lebrato, and their investigator, seem to be saying that AB and BR were not lying in their motions, which is something JG accused them of. I'm just very, very curious about it.

 

[steeltowngirl]

In the affidavit from Scremin and Lebrato's investigator, 1/12/24, I'm still a little surprised by this one, number 7:

View attachment 478567

10/28/22: 08C01-2210-MR-00000 - State v. Richard Allen- 2 Counts of Murder - Google Drive

I was too, but apparently there is truth to it.

"Odinism is fairly common among white supremacist prison gang members in Indiana. You've got two large gangs, the Indiana Aryan Brotherhood and the Saxon Knights present in the Indiana prison system. It gets a little complicated, because religious groups in prison can get certain privileges like meetings and so forth. And so some people claim to be of a particular religion without necessarily wholeheartedly believing in it," said Dr. Mark Pitcavage, who a historian and authority on extremism in the United States with the Anti-Defamation League.

He, too, reiterated not all Norse paganists are white supremacists. The overall desire for white supremacists to claim facets of European paganism as a philosophical harbor for racist beliefs took off in earnest in the mid 19th century, as European states sought to reclaim a sense of shared national identity and reached back to a perceived - often erroneous - shared heritage to do so. Symbols were an easy way to do that.

"White supremacists like symbols, they borrow or symbols from a lot of different places, or create their own symbols, and then use them in a variety of ways. And that includes, but it's not limited to Norse pagan symbols," Pitcavage said.

'Odinism': How white supremacists co-opt pagan symbols to further racist agendas in the United States

White supremacists have long had a tendency to steal, then subvert, the original meaning of symbols and runes used by peaceful, pagan religions worldwide.

www.wthr.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes, they say it has merit, which by itself could mean any or all parts. They didn't specify the Odinism details, I don't think...

But, here is JG's chosen Allen county PDs' investigator including in writing, in a formal court document, that symbolism and rituals associated with Odinism appear to be present in the crime scene photos. IMO, that makes it much harder to dismiss what was said in regards to Odinism in the FM. The investigator is talking about Odinism as it relates to white supremacy in the prison system. We can say or think we we'd like about the FM and the Odin stuff, but I can't ignore the fact that:

• Three LE officers investigated the Rushville line, and Click still thinks what was said about their investigation in the FM is correct (except that it wasn't a ritualistic killing).
• The four court-appointed public defenders all have taken issue with Odinism patches/tattoos on guards and the guards behavior at Westville, and mentioned the possible ties to white supremacy.
• An investigator for Allen county PDs claims there are Odin symbols at the crime scene.
• An expert on Norse religion claimed that the killer likely had Norse beliefs.

I'm not saying I buy all the Odin stuff, or that A and L were ritualistically killed, or killed by white supremacists because one of their parents was dating someone from a different race. However, perhaps there was something at the crime scene, maybe even things we don't yet know about, that give that impression of Norse beliefs, or as the investigator included in his paragraph - white supremacy beliefs, whether it has anything to do with the murders or not. Maybe it came out involuntarily...like a signature.

Scremin and Lebrato, and their investigator, seem to be saying that AB and BR were not lying in their motions, which is something JG accused them of. I'm just very, very curious about it.

Maybe someone staged a scene to misdirect the investigation towards the Odinists / Rushville group.

 

[TL4S]

Maybe someone staged a scene to misdirect the investigation towards the Odinists / Rushville group.

Yes, and I get why a lot of folks have tied the staging to this Odinism idea. It's certainly one possibility. IDK. Maybe the ex-now-current-D team went a little far with the Odinism stuff being the motive. I could believe that the killer simply practiced a belief in Odin and that happened to come out, despite the motive being sexual or whatever. What if a Christian man looked down at the bodies and said a prayer...would that automatically mean his faith was part of his motive?

This is what bothers me. Would RA know enough about Odinism to even try to stage the scene? Who thinks of that? Was he trying to frame someone who practiced Odinism? More importantly, did he somehow know that one of the girls was dating the son of an Odinist? Did he know that one of the girl's parents was dating someone from another race (if that's true)? How would RA know anything about any of that, and why stage Odinists of all things, if this was just a random, opportunistic killing?

 

[steeltowngirl]

Replying to myself. The weirder, odder, more deviant the CS is described (or speculated), the more curious I become on how RA kept it together for 45 years without getting caught on any similar behavior. JMO.

Dennis Rader BTK and Rex Heuermann (LISK) had no previous criminal records.

It is an odd mystery.
If RA=BG, maybe he was somewhat smart, or just lucky.
Until he wasn’t.

 

[photographer4]

John Kelly profiled BG, he pointed at fantasies, compulsions, urges. AFAIK, the FBI never released a profile. They did provide ‘behavioral clues’ In 2017.

The FBI has since released a list of behavioral clues that could help lead investigators to the killer or killers. The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who has exhibited the following signs:

• Changes in their daily routines, including modified sleep patterns
• Increased use of alcohol or drugs
• Cleaned or disposed of clothing and / or shoes that might have been worn on Feb. 13
• Missed work or other engagements
• Anxiety, nervousness or irritability
• Excessive attention to the investigation, media coverage or lengthy discussions related to the murders

FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail

The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who may have exhibited these behaviors.

www.wdrb.com

I think everyone in Delphi fits that profile who’s over age 18. Ugh. Many would have missed work to search or to grieve. Many would be very glued to the media and many would want to avoid it entirely. I was hoping for more specific things like the crime scene suggests the killer pre-planned this attack, or was well prepared for two young victims as evidenced by….

Though we do have the legal doc that says something about a stick or branch being clean cut as with a tool vs broken off. Makes me wonder how in advance was the stage for the scene set??

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yes, and I get why a lot of folks have tied the staging to this Odinism idea. It's certainly one possibility. IDK. Maybe the ex-now-current-D team went a little far with the Odinism stuff being the motive. I could believe that the killer simply practiced a belief in Odin and that happened to come out, despite the motive being sexual or whatever. What if a Christian man looked down at the bodies and said a prayer...would that automatically mean his faith was part of his motive?

This is what bothers me. Would RA know enough about Odinism to even try to stage the scene? Who thinks of that? Was he trying to frame someone who practiced Odinism? More importantly, did he somehow know that one of the girls was dating the son of an Odinist? Did he know that one of the girl's parents was dating someone from another race (if that's true)? How would RA know anything about any of that, and why stage Odinists of all things, if this was just a random, opportunistic killing?

To be honest, I’m not convinced that the sticks weren’t just thrown over them to cover their bodies. But I do recognize that LE has said the crime scene was odd and that there were signatures. At least one investigator thought it resembled Odinism.

I think the defense just grabbed and ran with it In the FM…

jmo

 

[TL4S]

To be honest, I’m not convinced that the sticks weren’t just thrown over them to cover their bodies. But I do recognize that LE has said the crime scene was odd and that there were signatures. At least one investigator thought it resembled Odinism.

I think the defense just grabbed and ran with it In the FM…

jmo

Yeah, I have a lot of trouble with it all. I just can't get off the fence before trial.

Unfortunately, anyone who mentions the word 'Odin,' without it applying to why the D team are clowns, automatically becomes RA sympathizers and FM supporters.

I'm like that kid who doesn't like sports or band, so I don't have anyone to hang out with...

 

[kkdj]

I've never seen an adults height being written in inches before. I don't think it means 55 inches.

Maybe a typo? Should have read 5’5”?

 

[photographer4]

Yes, they say it has merit, which by itself could mean any or all parts. They didn't specify the Odinism details, I don't think...

But, here is JG's chosen Allen county PDs' investigator including in writing, in a formal court document, that symbolism and rituals associated with Odinism appear to be present in the crime scene photos. IMO, that makes it much harder to dismiss what was said in regards to Odinism in the FM. The investigator is talking about Odinism as it relates to white supremacy in the prison system. We can say or think what we'd like about the FM and the Odin stuff, but I can't ignore the fact that:

• Three LE officers investigated the Rushville line, and Click still thinks what was said about their investigation in the FM is correct (except that it wasn't a ritualistic killing).
• The four court-appointed public defenders all have taken issue with Odinism patches/tattoos on guards and the guards' behavior at Westville, and mentioned the possible ties to white supremacy.
• An investigator for Allen county PDs claims there are Odin symbols at the crime scene.
• An expert on Norse religion claimed that the killer likely had Norse beliefs.

I'm not saying I buy all the Odin stuff, or that A and L were ritualistically killed, or killed by white supremacists because one of their parents was dating someone from a different race. However, perhaps there was something at the crime scene, maybe even things we don't yet know about, that give that impression of Norse beliefs, or as the investigator included in his paragraph - white supremacy beliefs, whether it has anything to do with the murders or not. Maybe it came out involuntarily...like a signature.

Scremin and Lebrato, and their investigator, seem to be saying that AB and BR were not lying in their motions, which is something JG accused them of. I'm just very, very curious about it.

And JG STILL denied the FM - based on what? We don't know because she didn't deign to tell us in her decision or the written explanation.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Yeah, I have a lot of trouble with it all. I just can't get off the fence before trial.

Unfortunately, anyone who mentions the word 'Odin,' without it applying to why the D team are clowns, automatically becomes RA sympathizers and FM supporters.

I'm like that kid who doesn't like sports or band, so I don't have anyone to hang out with...

We may not agree on the D Team or the FM, but you can still join me for peanut butter sandwiches at my lunch table anytime.

 

[snooptroop88]

Now, please, let me note, I haven't been following this case as closely as others on here. I've been more focusing on Gilgo, so please excuse me (seriously) if I say something not in line with what's going on. I am also on the fence with this, based on everything I've seen. The first thing that concerns me is that bridge guy says, "Guys, down the hill." Now, nobody has dwelled that much on the "guys" part of that. I think people assume he meant the girls in an informal way. And I haven't looked over these materials in a while, so someone please correct me if he didn't say "guys."

But what if there really WERE "guys" there by that point, guys that came up from the other end of that bridge? Meaning bridge guy approached from behind, the girls by then were watching now behind, and focused on bridge guy, and there were "guys" lying in wait at the opposite end of the bridge, towards where the girls had originally been walking? And suddenly, the "guys" (real guys) made themselves visible? So this is a concern for me because if you have collusion of that nature with a crime this serious-- that's difficult to get, and that really might indicate some kind of cult activity, or some group organized around a common (and very scary) "cause."

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss such a "cause." Richard Ramirez is one of the most terrifying serial killers in contemporary human history, and he had such a "cause." He did not, however, have an "organization" behind the "cause." But agreed that focusing on the potential "cause" could bring real damage to getting a conviction of anyone, ever. Jeannette DePalma, that's never been solved to this day. And just noting, don't know if anyone's following what's going on with Heuermann, but he uses 08061972 in one of his fake emails, and that's one day prior to the day DePalma was reported missing. Again, though, when you start moving off in that direction of "cult" and so forth, it's hard to come back to anything else. (Obviously, RH, who's 9 at that time didn't do it, but it makes you wonder if he had some strange interest in it.) Before I latch onto that "organization" idea, I'd want to be real sure that either this guy RA truly didn't do it or/and that there is such a "cause" involved. And that kind of certainty's pretty hard to come by.

 

[zh0r4]

I know, it's a mystery. Someone is right and someone is wrong, but I'm guessing we won't find out until trial?

At this point I’m just hoping we find out period. I hope there is a trial, and that the trial is televised. Transparency is imperative in maintaining trust between the public and LE/the justice system. JMO.

 

[photographer4]

Yes, and I get why a lot of folks have tied the staging to this Odinism idea. It's certainly one possibility. IDK. Maybe the ex-now-current-D team went a little far with the Odinism stuff being the motive. I could believe that the killer simply practiced a belief in Odin and that happened to come out, despite the motive being sexual or whatever. What if a Christian man looked down at the bodies and said a prayer...would that automatically mean his faith was part of his motive?

This is what bothers me. Would RA know enough about Odinism to even try to stage the scene? Who thinks of that? Was he trying to frame someone who practiced Odinism? More importantly, did he somehow know that one of the girls was dating the son of an Odinist? Did he know that one of the girl's parents was dating someone from another race (if that's true)? How would RA know anything about any of that, and why stage Odinists of all things, if this was just a random, opportunistic killing?

Anyone who would try to frame the Odinists would have to be insane, no? That seems like a good way to invite a lot of trouble into your life, whether from the legal system, or the Odinists themselves, no?

 

[photographer4]

Now, please, let me note, I haven't been following this case as closely as others on here. I've been more focusing on Gilgo, so please excuse me (seriously) if I say something not in line with what's going on. I am also on the fence with this, based on everything I've seen. The first thing that concerns me is that bridge guy says, "Guys, down the hill." Now, nobody has dwelled that much on the "guys" part of that. I think people assume he meant the girls in an informal way. And I haven't looked over these materials in a while, so someone please correct me if he didn't say "guys."

But what if there really WERE "guys" there by that point, guys that came up from the other end of that bridge? Meaning bridge guy approached from behind, the girls by then were watching now behind, and focused on bridge guy, and there were "guys" lying in wait at the opposite end of the bridge, towards where the girls had originally been walking? And suddenly, the "guys" (real guys) made themselves visible? So this is a concern for me because if you have collusion of that nature with a crime this serious-- that's difficult to get, and that really might indicate some kind of cult activity, or some group organized around a common (and very scary) "cause."

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss such a "cause." Richard Ramirez is one of the most terrifying serial killers in contemporary human history, and he had such a "cause." He did not, however, have an "organization" behind the "cause." But agreed that focusing on the potential "cause" could bring real damage to getting a conviction of anyone, ever. Jeannette DePalma, that's never been solved to this day. And just noting, don't know if anyone's following what's going on with Heuermann, but he uses 08061972 in one of his fake emails, and that's one day prior to the day DePalma was reported missing. Again, though, when you start moving off in that direction of "cult" and so forth, it's hard to come back to anything else. (Obviously, RH, who's 9 at that time didn't do it, but it makes you wonder if he had some strange interest in it.) Before I latch onto that "organization" idea, I'd want to be real sure that either this guy RA truly didn't do it or/and that there is such a "cause" involved. And that kind of certainty's pretty hard to come by.

We also don't know if "guys" was said as part of "down the hill" or if there were other words between guys and down the hill. I have wondered if "guys" was not to the girls but to others there.

 

[katydid23]

Anyone who would try to frame the Odinists would have to be insane, no? That seems like a good way to invite a lot of trouble into your life, whether from the legal system, or the Odinists themselves, no?

Anyone who would brutally kill 2 innocent girls would have to be insane, no? The seems like a good way to invite a lot of trouble into your life, no?

 

[susiQ]

This is what bothers me. Would RA know enough about Odinism to even try to stage the scene? Who thinks of that? Was he trying to frame someone who practiced Odinism? More importantly, did he somehow know that one of the girls was dating the son of an Odinist? Did he know that one of the girl's parents was dating someone from another race (if that's true)? How would RA know anything about any of that, and why stage Odinists of all things, if this was just a random, opportunistic killing?

RSBM
Exactly! Seems highly unlikely RA would have the knowledge of Odinism to stage the CS to direct an investigation away from himself and toward the local Odinists. Simple fact is, there is nothing that links RA to the CS. SURELY, if the P had information that RA was in anyway linked to the local Odinists, Rozzi and Baldwin would know to. In fact, it appears (to me at least), the more likely scenario in this case is that certain LE were instrumental in directing this case AWAY from the Odinists.

I just cannot believe one man was able to do all the evil that was done in that space of time. JMO

 

[Detective Willy]

One of the items allegedly seized from RA's house was a "Bowie Knife".

This type of knife was famously used by "Rambo" and probably Australia's most notorious serial killer, Ivan Milat.

 

[snooptroop88]

One of the items allegedly seized from RA's house was a "Bowie Knife".

Thank you for noting this because I know literally "zero" about this RA guy, pretty much nothing. I was following the case fairly closely for a while and then kind of moved away from it. It's a horrifying case.

 

[susiQ]

One of the items allegedly seized from RA's house was a "Bowie Knife".

This type of knife was famously used by "Rambo" and probably Australia's most notorious serial killer, Ivan Milat.

I imagine quite a few collectors have one. Doesn’t mean they are serial killers or wannabe Rambos. JMO

From Wikipedia:
Since the first incarnation, the Bowie knife has come to incorporate several recognizable and characteristic design features, although in common usage the term refers to any large sheath knife with a crossguard and a clip point.[9]The knife pattern is still popular with collectors; in addition to various knife manufacturing companies, there are hundreds of custom knifemakers producing Bowie knives with different types of steel and variations in style.

Bowie knife - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org